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Old 2012-10-22, 08:23   Link #30961
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Umineko doesn't give any explanation so we can make dozens of assumptions that ranges from dumb policemen to goverment order to drop investigations so it won't come up that they left Kinzo with that huge amount of explosive but we can't prove none so which would be the point?
You say "dozens" of ways, but I'm not seeing anything beyond dumb policemen. The latter example makes no sense, because if that were the case the message bottle would most certainly not be allowed to the public.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Then I can only assume you don't know well the history of that time.
Well, I know more than the average idiot.

The thing is, we don't know when the submarine left. It makes sense to me that they may have left shortly before Germany seized everything in September, 1943 (IIRC), likely precisely because they wanted to keep Germany from seizing the gold. Meanwhile, Kinzo's story occurs at some undisclosed time in 1944. I'm not sure exactly how long the voyage would take, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that it could longer than 4 months.

Or they may have originally set to sea earlier with a completely different mission, but then somehow became unable to return to Italy later in the war. And in fact that kind of thing happened on a regular basis throughout the war. Hiding the gold may have been a contingency mission that was taken on well after they were already far from home.

In any case, it's clear that landing on Rokkenjima was something they only did out of desperation after hitting a mine; they did not want the gold to fall into the hands of the Japanese either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
And apparently nobody ever investigated on this. They all conveniently forgot and Kinzo even managed to buy a island with a military base still completely equipped with explosive and even to keep it working. He even installed a self destruction button on it connected with a clock.
I think you are overestimating the capabilities and integrity of the Japanese bureaucracy at the end of WWII and during the subsequent occupation. Honestly, the part about this that makes the least sense to me is how the little base ended up with that much munition in the first place.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In short all that followed 'they weren't written by Eva or Maria' ended up in a catbox for us. The odd thing is that neither the witch hunter or Ange tried to open it.
I don't think you're exactly following my point. We have every reason to assume they did check the others' handwriting. Ange only mentioned in passing that Eva didn't write them, like it was a given that hers was checked.

And besides, the alternative is absurd. How incompetent would the police have to be?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
What about going back to the old theory of Shannon marely organizing a game and then wanting to stageplay it?

She wrotes several version then tossed them away, however the one she kept end up being taken over/end up badly or whatever so that her tale became true.
"Tossed them away"? You make it sound like putting the stories to sea in bottles à la And then their were none takes an equivalent state of mind to that of throwing them in the trash.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Her EP6 TIP. I'd say it's supported by the chapter about her boyfriend and all those passing "even before you were Bern's piece," lines. She's also thoroughly supported by the goats of the future, so it's hard to think they made her up entirely.

You might say she's in a very unique position in relation to the catbox, since her body was never found, and her Prime personality suited the Detective role. It's like the box was set down on top of her, and she's kinda stuck, half inside, a crack in the bottom of it.
Hm. I guess it's reasonably likely a really person with that name existed. Although I wouldn't assume anything about her Prime personality, so I can't imagine the up-to-eleven Erika we know to have been anything like the real Erika was actually like. More like, becoming Bern's piece gave her a complete makeover.
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Old 2012-10-22, 08:47   Link #30962
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The only reason she asked for further proof was because Battler was a human, therefore not qualified to use the red at snap just like that without any conclusive evidence to base it upon.
I know that, It's the explenation on why that red DID NOT work but what if there was anathor reason?
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Old 2012-10-22, 08:59   Link #30963
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
I know that, It's the explenation on why that red DID NOT work but what if there was anathor reason?
And it was the reason Battler wasn't allowed to base any theories off of reds, which lead him to have to use gold truth.
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Old 2012-10-22, 10:26   Link #30964
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I choose to interpret it (and I think it's rather intuitive) that the Court of Illusions scene is just an allegory for what was actually occurring on the game board at the time of suspension:

1.) Battler is trying to defend Natsuhi.
2.) Beatrice is the "Illusion of the Witch", or rather "the possibility that a witch did it", not necessarily Yasu.
3.) The Siestas are the rifles, or some force in the parlor.
4.) Dlanor is a set of rules (the Knox Decalogue) that Erika is enforcing because she can do whatever the hell she wants to because she's the detective.

So: Kumasawa knows that Natsuhi isn't the culprit (because she knows who the culprit is), but in terms of reasoning, this means nothing without a basis. Battler just can't "speak the truth" without any justification because Eva, Erika etc. won't buy it and it he can't show it's verifiable. It's sort of like saying Natsuhi didn't do it because Natsuhi didn't do it.

This is how I would explain Virgilia's red truth and why it can't be used in the Court scene.

EDIT: Unrelated, but I still like the theory that Eva = Erika Even though EP8 sort of disproves this.
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Old 2012-10-22, 13:06   Link #30965
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
And it was the reason Battler wasn't allowed to base any theories off of reds, which lead him to have to use gold truth.
Really, the entire reason he couldn't do it was to set up tension for the gold truth moment being pulled out of nowhere. It wasn't really well-written and Virgilia never needed to actually give him that red.
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Old 2012-10-22, 13:33   Link #30966
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Really, the entire reason he couldn't do it was to set up tension for the gold truth moment being pulled out of nowhere. It wasn't really well-written and Virgilia never needed to actually give him that red.
Well, and also to give confirmation to the reader that Natsuhi is in fact innocent (which makes the following scenes with Natsuhi + Kinzo even more emotional).

And following my post above (which may not be true), the fact the Virgilia is able to speak that red truth is informative:

How come Virgilia (Kumasawa) knows that piece of truth?
Only an accomplice would know that Natsuhi isn't behind the murders (given the current layout of the game board).
Kumasawa knows that Natsuhi isn't behind the murders.
Therefore, Kumasawa is an accomplice.


Maybe I'm just looking to deeply into this. But I do agree with what you are saying: the primary significance of that red is to heighten the tension for the big gold truth reveal.

Edit: This doesn't explain why Kumasawa is in any position to be able to use the red based on something she knows and Battler can't say that Kinzo's dead, though... yeah plot device.

Last edited by DaBackpack; 2012-10-22 at 13:43.
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Old 2012-10-22, 14:19   Link #30967
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Hm. I guess it's reasonably likely a really person with that name existed. Although I wouldn't assume anything about her Prime personality, so I can't imagine the up-to-eleven Erika we know to have been anything like the real Erika was actually like. More like, becoming Bern's piece gave her a complete makeover.
I feel pretty sure she existed. I generally agree about her Prime personality - I think at best, she was very intelligent, possibly into mysteries, and like I said, was a snoop ... since she apparently "investigated" her boyfriend like a hound and presented all her findings to him demanding an explanation ("The mud on your shoes PROVES you were actually out on that Sunday it rained! It matches the mark on your calendar!")

On the gameboards, maybe "up to eleven" isn't very accurate ... more like, ramped up to eleventy-hundred. That Ryukishi never bothers expanding on her Prime existence, to me, falls under the same sort of Prime details he chooses aren't important enough, like the fact that Jessica and Battler had a crap ton of friends, or that Natsuhi and Godha probably have surviving relatives that are all WTF about the forgeries, or ANYTHING about Kinzo's wife. Hell, I've always found it odd that there are no Ushiromiya's outside of Kinzo's clan, since there were apparently enough elders around to bully him in the 40's, and it certainly sounds like he was one of several options for them.
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Old 2012-10-22, 14:29   Link #30968
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Ha, that last one is a good catch. I never even wondered about other Ushiromiyas before.
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Old 2012-10-22, 14:44   Link #30969
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
How come Virgilia (Kumasawa) knows that piece of truth?
Only an accomplice would know that Natsuhi isn't behind the murders (given the current layout of the game board).
Kumasawa knows that Natsuhi isn't behind the murders.
Therefore, Kumasawa is an accomplice.
Virgilia knows that Natsuhi is innocent because the stakes were watching over her all night.
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Old 2012-10-22, 15:52   Link #30970
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
You say "dozens" of ways, but I'm not seeing anything beyond dumb policemen. The latter example makes no sense, because if that were the case the message bottle would most certainly not be allowed to the public.
Of course I didn't list them all since

Quote:
we can't prove none so which would be the point?

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Well, I know more than the average idiot.
Actually I have no idea what one in your country is supposed to know about WW2 in Italy so it wasn't meant to be an offense.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The thing is, we don't know when the submarine left. It makes sense to me that they may have left shortly before Germany seized everything in September, 1943 (IIRC), likely precisely because they wanted to keep Germany from seizing the gold. Meanwhile, Kinzo's story occurs at some undisclosed time in 1944. I'm not sure exactly how long the voyage would take, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that it could longer than 4 months.
Italy surrendered in 8 September. Italian discovered from the radio that they 'asked for an armistice' which was quite different from the truth but let's skip over it. Let's skip over the fact Badoglio had promised, when he had replaced Mussolini in 25 July that war would be continued and many of them were so dumb/naive/honest/whatever to believe him.

Well, the 'armistice' came as a surprise for the admiral Ajmone di Savoia Aosta, who was also a relative of the king and responsible for the submarines of the Italian Royal Navy. He wasn't the only one. Generals arrested soldiers talking about the armistice because it surely hadn't happened.

Badoglio and the king in fact became famous for escaping from Rome without warning everyone of their bright plan of surrendering and without giving orders about what to do.

The 9 September the German forces sunk the Roma, an Italian battlership, that was traveling toward a destination they didn't like (it was supposed to be handed to the allied by the agreements taken in the 'armistice').

The 12 September Max Berninghas a german official (can't find the exact rank) showed up to take the complete control of the Italian royal navy in Liguria. The same happened for the other Italian regions.

This to show you how fast the German forces were in seizing control of everything and how unprepared everyone was to the news of the 'armistice' and how hard to believe it seems that someone could prepare in advantage. Not that it mattered because Umineko makes clear that this isn't what had happened.

The RSI has birth the 18 November and was a puppet state under Germany.

Now Umineko not only mention 1944 but also the defeats at Saipan and Guam.

Saipan's defeat took place in 9 July 1944, Guan in August 10. So we're past August 10.

We know that Beato's father was a high-ranking RSI official so the submarine, to pick him and Beato up, must have left after the RSI had birth and after he had the time to be recognized as such.

Recheking Umineko Ep 7 I even found they said which way they took
They went through the Suez Canal and crossed the Indian Ocean to come all the way there, a trip that's shorter than to circumnavigate Africa but nowhere near nice as the Suez Canal was under Allies control. Anyway, in order to go through it they must have started their travel from some point in the Mediterranean that was still under control of the RSI and therefore of the German forces.

Ergo whoever planned the trip set them for a nice, long travel in allied controlled waters when again there were Spain or Switzerland nearby.

Beato also said that she didn't know well their mission but that they were escaping and that they were supposed to hide 'something' implying the mission.
And anyway... where would they have picked up the gold?

And anyway, even if they landed on Rokkenjima merely out of desperation... where they were trying to go? Around they had only countries that were on the allies side and Japan with the countries under his control.

No, the plan makes no sense at all.

Anyway, wanna find it logic?
Be my guest. For me it's one of the most senseless thing in Umineko but feel free to think differently. I'm not going to discuss it any further.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I don't think you're exactly following my point. We have every reason to assume they did check the others' handwriting. Ange only mentioned in passing that Eva didn't write them, like it was a given that hers was checked.
You're probably not following my point either. What I was saying is that no info about the handwriting being recognized as the one of Shannon was given.
If the police managed to realize it, the info was kept the info absolutely secret, the journalists and the witch hunters didn't manage to have one of the policemen tattle it out.
Journalists and witch hunters didn't find it out in any other way.
However the public found out that the handwriting wasn't Eva, that it wasn't Maria, even the text of the message and Ootsuki could even see it personally and for a time long enough to allow him to recognize the writing when he saw it on Ange's diary.
All in all you can say as many times as you want that the police investigates on the messages and, if you like, even discovered who wrote them but there's no proof about this.

And if you can prove something, it remains a theory.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
"Tossed them away"? You make it sound like putting the stories to sea in bottles à la And then their were none takes an equivalent state of mind to that of throwing them in the trash.
I obviously didn't meant that way as I referenced Ten Little Indians and Yasu's wish for someone to find them and solve them previously.
Please, avoid nit-picking my English. I already know it's horrible but it's not my first language and it was mostly self learnt so really, this is the best I can do with it.
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Old 2012-10-22, 20:20   Link #30971
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Actually, wasn't the rules originally that

When I (Beatrice) speak the truth, I (Beatrice) will use the red.

Battler wasn't permitted to use the red until EP4. In fact, that was the only time he was implicitly allowed to use it. After that, Battler did use it though.

Remember when Ryukishi likened the gold to a "finishing move that if anyone knows the code, they can use."

Sure, Beato allowed Battler and Ange to say things in red. They were true. But once the game was hijacked in EP5, Lambda and Bern were more strict on the rules. It's like playing a game with certain house rules, and then once you go to the official games, all of a sudden, you can't do those things any more.

Reread EP1's tea-party. Battler challeneged Beatrice game to the hundreds of years worth of mystery novels. Therefore, the detective had to gather clues, and only the clues that the detective gathered had any meaning.

Bern and Lambda weren't scribbling on their board; they were playing by the rules as they were set out back in EP1. There aren't any magical forces keeping a player from moving a rook diagonally, but it's an illegal move and will have to be taken back. That's what Virgilia's red is.
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Old 2012-10-22, 20:57   Link #30972
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Virgilia is a witch and is on Beatrice's side, though, so that move is valid by your own logic.
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Old 2012-10-22, 23:19   Link #30973
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Really, the entire reason he couldn't do it was to set up tension for the gold truth moment being pulled out of nowhere. It wasn't really well-written and Virgilia never needed to actually give him that red.
I'm pretty sure that his red was rejected because it didn't come from the Game Master. The whole point of the Umineko game is that the player solves it with information given by the Game Master. The Game Master guarantees that whatever information she gives will be enough to solve all the puzzles. In exchange, she requires that you construct an argument based solely on the evidence shown in the game.

Virgilia's red was an extra hint outside what the author shows us in the game, like an interview or one of those extra TIPs. It might be useful for giving Battler confidence, or as an idea of where to look for the real solution, but it can't be used as evidence by itself.


The only reason the trial looks unfair is because Erika keeps using cheap tricks to prevent all answers where Natsuhi is innocent. However, we know that Natsuhi is innocent. Therefore, no matter what tricks Erika uses, no matter how cheap she is, there must always be a way to demonstrate Natsuhi's innocence, using only the evidence Lambda gives us.
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Old 2012-10-22, 23:19   Link #30974
DaBackpack
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Actually, that red is false as it is stated in EP2:

When I speak the truth, I will use the red. means that everything not in red is a lie. (contrapositive). But we have several cases where Beatrice has spoken the truth without using the red.

I think it's supposed to be When I use the red, I am speaking the truth.
The two are not interchangeable. This is a fault of Ryukishi's.
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Old 2012-10-23, 00:12   Link #30975
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Actually, that red is false as it is stated in EP2:

When I speak the truth, I will use the red. means that everything not in red is a lie. (contrapositive). But we have several cases where Beatrice has spoken the truth without using the red.

I think it's supposed to be When I use the red, I am speaking the truth.
The two are not interchangeable. This is a fault of Ryukishi's.
Nah, no fault on Ryuukishi here, though you could probably take issue with our translation, especially that far back.

Beatrice doesn't say "whenever I say something true, I will use the red". She's saying "when I'm talking about the truth, I'll use red". Or "when I tell you what the truth is, I'll make a point of using red". She's talking about a thing she'll do at some time in the future.

Beatrice doesn't actually define what the red means until her next line, "Everything I speak in red is the truth".
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Old 2012-10-23, 08:15   Link #30976
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Of course I didn't list them all since
You listed 2 explanations, both absurd. You say you have dozens, but I'm saying you have none. Do you see how I can't just be satisfied by the vague notion that "there are other ways, too"?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
WW2 Stuff
Well even without all that, I was rechecking the episode as well and came to the part about the RSI emblem on the gold. They had to have left after the RSI was established and the gold pressed. Which pretty much means the submarine had to have been loaded after the Germans had taken over.

On the other hand, after some cursory research it did seem to me that the RSI navy (what little there was to speak of) had some of their own ships. Not sure how implausible it is that they had some autonomy from the Germans.

As for them not going to Switzerland or Spain, I'm sure they would have plenty of trouble keeping it out of other peoples' hands in those places, too. ...Not that it explains why Japan would be a better option.

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Recheking Umineko Ep 7 I even found they said which way they took
They went through the Suez Canal and crossed the Indian Ocean to come all the way there.
Well, we don't know they took that route, just that Will thought they did. It still seems just as ridiculous to me, though. I'm not an expert on sneaking through major strategic canals held by opposing forces, but on the surface it seems kind of... obviously impossible.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
You're probably not following my point either. What I was saying is that no info about the handwriting being recognized as the one of Shannon was given.
If the police managed to realize it, the info was kept the info absolutely secret, the journalists and the witch hunters didn't manage to have one of the policemen tattle it out.
Or Beatrice's handwriting didn't match any samples of Shannon's writing they had. Or they didn't have any samples of Shannon's writing to begin with.

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And if you can prove something, it remains a theory.
Sure, but you're not going to argue with me if I claim the sun is coming up tomorrow.

I'm not saying that pre-incident writing without Yasu being the culprit is physically impossible, just stupidly implausible and with a much better alternative explanation. What exactly do you disagree with in that regard?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I obviously didn't meant that way as I referenced Ten Little Indians and Yasu's wish for someone to find them and solve them previously.
If she's doing the murder game, what's the purpose of the message bottles?
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Old 2012-10-23, 09:01   Link #30977
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
The only reason the trial looks unfair is because Erika keeps using cheap tricks to prevent all answers where Natsuhi is innocent. However, we know that Natsuhi is innocent. Therefore, no matter what tricks Erika uses, no matter how cheap she is, there must always be a way to demonstrate Natsuhi's innocence, using only the evidence Lambda gives us.
No, the reason the trial looks unfair is because the trial is unfair. The scene is poorly-written because it's clear that Battler will not be able to advance anything under any circumstances because he has no mechanism to do so, yet Erika will be able to do anything she wants because the people running the "trial" are specifically biased in her favor. Erika's speculation is nothing more than that, and everybody knows it (especially the audience). The only reason it could be "found to be true" is if everyone is intentionally working to make her right (they are) and Battler doesn't bother to raise the objections which actually torpedo her theory (he doesn't, at least until the climax).

There are several obvious avenues of attack, and Battler does take them, but only after things build to the point that he's able to suddenly pull out gold truth. A reveal that, by the way, doesn't actually work very effectively as a narrative measure, because we don't even know what it is until several episodes later.

The basic structure of the scene is thus:

ERIKA: I've eliminated all possibilities except that Natsuhi did it, by completely failing to do any alibi establishment for her for absolutely no reason.
BATTLER: But-
WITCHES: Sorry, you can't say anything.
BATTLER: The hell with that.
DLANOR: GASP, it's the gold truth!
AUDIENCE: What.
DLANOR: It's pretty awesome and it means he's the Game Master and knows everything and shit so he's right.
ERIKA: But-
BATTLER: Sorry, you can't say anything. By the way here's all the reasons your theory can be challenged. Also, I posit that I was the culprit which is equally as ridiculous as Natsuhi doing it but also equally impossible to disprove.
ERIKA: Why didn't you just come up with that at the climactic moment? It would've been just as surprising and actually have defeated me by playing by the rules, instead of just randomly vanquishing me with as stupid a trick as my idiotically comprehensive research that somehow failed to ever account for Natsuhi's location.
BATTLER: I dunno lol. Anyway I get to be a wizard now.
ERIKA: What.
BERNKASTEL: Oh well that's cool. I'm going to crank up my villainy to 11 now for some reason. This will be fun.
AUDIENCE: But wait, so what is the gold truth? I mean what does it do, what are its rules, what can be said in gold? Why does Battler win?
WITCHES: *shrug*
BEATRICE: By the way I died at some point in here.
AUDIENCE: Nobody cares, you'll come back.
BEATRICE: Probably, yeah.
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Old 2012-10-23, 13:51   Link #30978
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yasu in the end was employed by Kinzo and was a servant under him. Kinzo died, Yasu remains without a work but hey also inherits everything. Natsuhi and Krauss don't know about the inheritance part and ask Yasu to continue being a servant of the head however the head is Yasu so all the job he/she is doing is... to serve himself/herself. In short, it's due to his/her own will he/she is doing what Natsuhi & Krauss ask him and not because he/she is on their paycheck.
This makes Yasu someone who has stopped being a servant and it's just posing as one.

Agatha Christie used a similar technique in one of her mystery to have the servant being the culprit.
In which novel / story? I remember two cases with a seeming servant as a culprit, but in both cases, it was a person who:
1) was established under his legal name / role throughout the rest of the story.
2) had played the servant role for a very short period of time (1 night in each case).
3) had gone by his legal name for decades.

In Umineko, Yasu:
1) was established throughout the story in his/her servant guise.
2) had played the servant role for a long period of time (a decode, roughly half his/her life).
3) barely, if at all, characterized outside his/her role as a servant.

Also, Christie never claims to follow the van Dine rules.


Alternately:
Case 1:
- establish Thomas Richard Harrison III in his own right, as the CEO for many years
- have him secretly get a job as "Frank the janitor" (to get a worm's eye look at the business)
- have Frank get only incidental time
- have Thomas take plenty of action in his role as CEO (give orders to buy this company or sell that one, expand one factory or cancel a product line)
Claim that the character isn't really a servant because he's the CEO, fair.

Case 2:
- establish Frank the janitor in his own right having held that position for years
- have Frank secretly win the lottery
- using the winnings, secretly buy a controlling interest in the company
- have Frank take no actions as an officer in the company
- have Frank continue to go to work as a janitor and take orders as such
- possibly add that Frank is also the illegitimate son of the person who originally started the business
- never characterize Frank as such
Claim that Frank isn't really a servant because he actually owns the company (and possibly the illegitimate son), not fair.
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Old 2012-10-23, 16:30   Link #30979
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
You listed 2 explanations, both absurd. You say you have dozens, but I'm saying you have none. Do you see how I can't just be satisfied by the vague notion that "there are other ways, too"?
Thanks for basically calling me a liar.
If that's how you see me I really doubt we've something else about which to discuss.

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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
In which novel / story? I remember two cases with a seeming servant as a culprit, but in both cases, it was a person who:
1) was established under his legal name / role throughout the rest of the story.
2) had played the servant role for a very short period of time (1 night in each case).
3) had gone by his legal name for decades.

In Umineko, Yasu:
1) was established throughout the story in his/her servant guise.
2) had played the servant role for a long period of time (a decode, roughly half his/her life).
3) barely, if at all, characterized outside his/her role as a servant.

Also, Christie never claims to follow the van Dine rules.
Actually it's implied Umineko doesn't strictly follow Van Dine

Quote:
K I was actually wondering and bargaining with myself whether I should accept this just like that… Finally I decided to grasp it like this: „Battler never killed anybody, he just witnessed a terrible reality.“.By the way, at a point before EP7 came out, I was thinking that Witchhunting Wright would have a much more intense entrance. I actually thought he would ruthlessly use Van Dine’s 20 Rules of Detective Fiction to cut the element of love out of the story, so I was pretty surprised when it was the other way around.

R Because the heart lies at the center of this story, you can’t cut out the element of love.

K I expected the dragging out of the guts to happen along with the denial of love.

R Will became a character who was actually sick of that method. Because of something that seems to have happened to him in the past.

K When I saw „Quit the SSVD“ written in the character bio, I was like „What?!“. If it’s like that, then the plot is actually satisfactory. I really grew to like Will.

R If everything happens in complete accordance to Van Dine’s 20 Rules of Detective Fiction, then the motive becomes basically obsolete and is removed from the cornerstones of the story. So that’s how it became my goal to eliminate the 20 rules and how they vanished from Umineko.

K Most of Will’s 20 Van Dine Rules were never claimed to have effect during the story. Many of them were also interrupted. And many of those claimed to have effect were written in plain white letters.
And it was implied the culprit, or 'Beatrice', who was the owner of the gold and the other master of the Ushiromiya was one of the people early introduced in the story so we should have suspected someone could have becomed more than it seemed by solving the epitaph, inheriting and basically changing his/her status.

We also know this someone had interacted with people who had recognized she had that role. Yes, Christie's work was slightly different but I guess that Ryukishi didn't mean to exactly copy it. Then it's up to everyone to judge which trick was... fairer, if so they can be called.

And there are other two (or more? I'm sure I remember two well) books of Christie where a relative of the victim who was also incidentally the culprit, was presented as someone else and you had to figure that he was related (in one case it was a policeman, in the other it was the nurse of the victim...).
Plus in another book you've a policeman who's actually not a policeman but the murderer while the true policeman is in disguise and, of course, you've no idea about how the policeman isn't the policeman.



On an unrelated note, funny enough, now I've just remembered that in an old Italian fumetto (an Italian style comic) we've a story that was terribly similar to Umineko in which some people are closed in an English castle, there's a storm outside, for some reasons they can't leave, they're all relatives who're there to get the inheritance from... can't remember if it was the grandad or uncle... and they're all magically gruesomely killed by the ghost of the castle. And guess what the culprits are the servants who'd inherited the money. The maid falls in love with the detective and everyone dies in the end, minus the detective. The castle doesn't blow up though and the detective doesn't get amnesia. And yes, there are other minor differences but now that I think back at it the resemblance was pretty impressive. We even had the subjective narration... Though of course the story was simple as it didn't span for 8 novels but just in two episodes (around 100 pages each, I think).

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-10-23 at 17:03.
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Old 2012-10-24, 01:26   Link #30980
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
No, the reason the trial looks unfair is because the trial is unfair. The scene is poorly-written because it's clear that Battler will not be able to advance anything under any circumstances because he has no mechanism to do so, yet Erika will be able to do anything she wants because the people running the "trial" are specifically biased in her favor. Erika's speculation is nothing more than that, and everybody knows it (especially the audience). The only reason it could be "found to be true" is if everyone is intentionally working to make her right (they are) and Battler doesn't bother to raise the objections which actually torpedo her theory (he doesn't, at least until the climax).
Let's try not to jump on the author until we're certain he made a mistake. It's possible that all of these things could be explained if we knew a bit more of the answer. Sure, the last game's been out almost 2 years, but I'm willing to bet there are things we haven't figured out yet.

Like Ryuukishi says, if the reader can't trust the author, you can't have a game in the first place.
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