2010-05-06, 00:37 | Link #9802 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Don't forget in EP6 that people can traverse up these levels. For example Moetrice and Virgilia going into the meta level and Featherine's level. Yay.
Except the characters can't come up to our level. I hope. /me looks at the cosplay board. EDIT: If Hachijou is not lying or is real and Featherine is her character then she's yet another level by herself... |
2010-05-06, 00:48 | Link #9803 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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I'm not sure about this different levels thing. Maybe the different backgrounds have something to do with that? There is the bright tea room that Beatrice normally uses and then there is dark tea room that Lambda and Bern mostly appear in. There's also the voyager space where there are "fragments" from past games.
That and Beato does seem to have some oversight over the board. How much I don't know. I think she at least has control over perspectives about the murders, but maybe if someone who is not supposed to be a murderer (Erika) murders someone than the GM doesn't have oversight over that, but a different player controlling that piece does. There are also the flashbacks that Beato takes Battler to in episode 3 so I think she has some control over what her opponent is allowed to see. In fact maybe Battler never saw any scenes from the meta world that Beato didn't show to him.
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2010-05-06, 00:50 | Link #9804 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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In particular Bernkastel, though, seems to be engaged in some kind of daydreaming process, which associates her with a character -- always only one, Bernkastel herself. This is why she is able to know that 'someone wrote what happens now to me', (not an exact quote, but seen in Ep5) and still comment on it and enjoy the process -- she is detached as if reading. At the same time, we are capable of seeing that so we're either above a layer or two in this meta-ladder, or at least sideways. Lambdadelta does not exhibit such a level of awareness, and her attempts to catch Bernkastel resemble attempts to capture a reader indefinitely by presenting her a chess match she isn't even playing in herself or writing about herself, but can present to the author's eye. I think that Erika works in a similar manner, but much closer down to earth -- it's not just that only Meta-Erika exists, but that's two layers of Meta-Erika. One is an interpretation of events on layer 1, another is the one who does the interpreting.
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2010-05-06, 00:56 | Link #9805 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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I'm not sure that by now, Ryukishi himself knows how many layers of reality he plastered one over another, for that matter. He clearly doesn't think of them as very rigid.
But I'm sure that the level where the onboard magic happens and the level where Meta-Battler drinks tea with a Beatrice are clearly distinct, so there's at least three.
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2010-05-06, 01:02 | Link #9806 | |
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Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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I certainly don't believe he did this by accident or that it's grown out of control... |
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2010-05-06, 01:11 | Link #9807 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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This happens in every game though. Fact after fact piles up until it reaches a distorted climax where shocking the readers is it's main function. It's milder in the earlier games, but it's more profound in the later games. Particularly the ones since 3 and 4 because that's where it starts becoming obvious.
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2010-05-06, 01:28 | Link #9808 | |
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If you're talking about game-spanning anti-theories though, I might cite the Shkannon theory. I'm thinking that he can make it as blatant as he wants because in the end it's actually something else or it has no effect on the murders. So, I'm thinking the theories that he builds up into a big pile of mess are the wrong ones. And the ones he just gives us the answer to are the right ones. (Although it's too late if he just gives us the answer.) |
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2010-05-06, 08:08 | Link #9809 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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From looking at various meta-characters though, it seems that most characters can move two levels lower. Meta-Battler spends most of his time on Level 3 with Beato, but both of them can move down to Level 1. If you're right, and Erika doesn't interact with Level 1, then her level of origin would be Level 4 or 5. Sorry, I'm just having a bit of fun with this idea. |
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2010-05-06, 10:51 | Link #9810 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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The only three layers I'm sure in are the first three -- physical layer 1, intersubjective interpretational layer 2, referential reasoning layer 3, and what shows in the narrative in non-meta scenes is inevitably layer 2. Everything above that is a meta-meta-mess that is only very roughly structured. I should also note that all of the layers in this cake are in some senses real, even the ones from Bernkastel and up. Atoms are not the only reality, because the really important human things are intersubjective cultural entities, completely virtual in nature -- starting with money and the concept of value and ending with friendship and love, there's very little material about being human. These things objectively exist, because their consequences can be seen in material objects and events when humans act, but the space they exist in is virtual space that isn't even contained in an individual person's brain. Sorry, I'm on a roll. Let me expand some more on the topic of Erika as a virtual character... I'm not sure which layer Erika really is supposed to be from and how deep down to the atoms she can really reach, but she's referred to as 'being in a different dimension' several times, does meta-things in what we think should be layer 1 but is probably layer 2, (like those screams relating to Battler's Kinzo Escape Theory -- in layer 1 but in blue) employs blue and calls upon Dlanor's red in what is unambiguously layer 2, but curiously seldom does anything physical that we can certainly see. She starts with the introduction scene where she is seen eating with the family and offers lines that cannot be easily ascribed to anyone else, but very soon after -- once the gold is found -- completely transforms into a magic-style phantom, seen and talked to, but even more ambiguous than Kanon, who's best claim to definitely existing is also his introduction scene when Battler sees him. In particular, none of Erika's seals are ever seen practically in the narrative, there is only one seal clearly described in the text of Ep5, and that's the seal on the servant waiting room door where Genji is. As is later revealed, Eva made that one. Other stuff Erika is claimed to do is either physically impossible in the time allotted, highly impractical, or simply too vague -- like her 'scientific examinations' that never go into real detail. Comparing two sets of fingerprints to conclusively tell if they match is easy, takes just a magnifying glass and a few pages worth of instructions to follow. I did that myself once. Lifting clear, readable prints off objects takes considerably more practice. Ensuring you have a set of prints you definitely know are Genji's or Kinzo's to compare with when their owners are missing is art, if it's at all possible. I'm pretty certain that while Battler reaches up the layers from the humble Piece-Battler where he originates, Erika reaches down, the red truth she 'supports' with physical evidence is really just red truth she needs an excuse to call upon. The real problem with Erika being a magical/meta character that is seen in the narrative we get from layer 2 up, but does not exist on layer 1, instead of a normal person, only arise when her name is used in red, because that raises the usual problem of ambiguity of the red regarding names. If it weren't for the red, it would not require to make sense, or at least, I wouldn't need to put the particular layer relationship system into words to talk about it -- expressing it through feelings and metaphor would suffice. The only way red can be objective truth to be relied on is if it's independent of interpretation and refers to layer 1 objects, even when it uses layer 2 entities (which names are -- there is nothing physical that attaches a name to a human body) to refer to them. If red actually refers to layer 2 objects, there would be nothing sporting about it -- Beatrice could lie in red because she would be expressing someone's subjective truth. But if a layer 2 name-entity is allowed to attach itself to multiple layer 1 objects, like Erika's name being somehow transferable, or if a corpse does not need to be called a corpse in red, red is simply too ambiguous to use because we have no way of telling where else that happened. Either way, boom, we don't have axioms anymore. It may be that the only practical way to make it all make sense is when Erika actually has an object present on level 1 that she is always attached to, but this object is not a human body -- i.e. if a literal 'Erika Ball' exists. Which reminds me that before Ep5 came out, when an image existed but even the name wasn't yet known, Erika was widely speculated to be a magical character who's vessel is Maria's rose in this very thread. I don't think there's any seriously good hints regarding what that could be, though.
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2010-05-07, 08:39 | Link #9811 |
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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I agree that the red would refer to the Layer 1 objects, but I also think it can also refer to Layer 2 objects. To be more specific, I think the red is the absolute truth of the Layers below the Layer it is used in. Since most of the red is used in Layer 3, then most of the absolute truth in the games is of Layer 1 and 2.
Along with this, I believe that names, Layer 2 objects, are permanently affixed to the Layer 1 objects they are attached to. Let me use a chessboard for example (because I feel like cliched metaphors today). The Layer 1 of the chessboard would be the world of the pieces, the board of the game. Here, the pieces are moved around, and assuming consciousness of the pieces, are likely not aware they are being controlled by players, like the characters on Rokkenjima. Secondly, Layer 2, where the names that are assigned by us to the pieces, like bishop, pawn or rook, exist. These names are assigned to specific pieces and cannot be changed. Thirdly, Layer 3, the players. Here, the players move the pieces, whether or not the pieces in Layer 1 must comply to their movements or are coincidently matching the game the players are playing. Say a player moved his rook and took the other player's bishop. Then, he stated in red "Left Rook has killed White Bishop." In context, this is correct, as by the rules of chess a piece cannot be returned to the game once it is taken, and the rook really has killed the bishop on Layer 1. And the red holds for both Layer 1 and 2, as the piece is dead on Layer 1, and the assigned name to that piece on Layer 2, White Bishop, has been used to describe it in it's death. Well, that's my attempt to solve your problem with the red and layers. Off topic, is there anything you haven't done Oliver? You seem to have quite repertoire of experiences. |
2010-05-07, 10:33 | Link #9812 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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It may, ofcourse, be better to ignore the whole Erika issue and assume it's there to confuse us, the mystery is supposed to be solvable with episodes 1-4 only. But it's not like complete working theories of the entire Umineko have not been proposed before, and none of them seems to win -- which means that while the correct solution is probably reachable, the clues required to see it as the only correct one are not yet present and will only show up piece by piece in Chiru. I'm much less of a man of adventure than I come out to be, but being a social scientist studying subcultures tends to offer opportunities to see and participate in things normally considered bizarre.
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2010-05-07, 23:13 | Link #9814 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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I proclaim that Erika Furudo is the detective. It's entirely possible that this does not imply "Erika=Detective" but "Detective=Erika!" In other words, whatever piece Bernkastel chooses to be her detective for that game gains the title "Erika!" In other words, if Bernkastel had chosen Eva, for example, as the detective, then any time that "Erika" was referred to in red, it would refer to Eva! Because "Erika" would be the detective's title, if a new character was chosen by Bernkastel in the Sixth Game, a different character would be able to be called "Erika!" Additionally, what if Bernkastel can switch what piece she controls? Then multiple characters would be able to be referred to as "Erika" even during the course of one game! (Yes, this causes a contradiction regarding the sealed room in Episode 6, due to the people being sealed inside. But still, it's worth considering, especially since the red is very intriguing in its possible implications) |
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2010-05-08, 01:10 | Link #9816 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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It's possible that this is a reference from an actual novel novel instead of a sound novel. He had to read at least one right?
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2010-05-08, 01:49 | Link #9817 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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2010-05-08, 16:21 | Link #9819 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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That with the exception of the very first tea party, which actually marks a transition from a dual-layer 'human' view of the world ("there are things, (1) and there are things we think about things (2)") to a triple or more layer view ("there are things, (1) there are things we think about things, (2) and there are things we think about whether what we just thought is true. (3) "). Interactions with Bernkastel and Lambdadelta mostly occur with them peeking down from layer 4 into layer 3. Mind you, I'm not sure Ryukishi thinks of them in such a structured manner.
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