Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Ryand-Smith]

Think of the combat cyborgs as weightlifters/extreme athlees and it makes sense. Hell, even with cyborg technology, the energy must come from a non magical source. I belive SSX said that the girls can convert food into energy for their parts, so perhaps they need to eat to rebuild/run their massive engineså.

Also using frames to judge animation.. from the point of view of me, your humble animation student, is.. a badddd idea. Animation is meant to flow and move with motion, not be exact (but if you fuck up eye motions horrible inbetweens happen nerd rage aside). Animation is an art, not an exact thing, although it requires precision.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Nice ad hominem attack here... I understand you at least learned some law. Even a communist People's Court will give a show of listening of someone's defense before passing "judgment".

Not my fault you were hoist by your own petard. You're just as halfassed in your own way. You use animation, an inherently inaccurate medium as your benchmark, wilfully ignoring the animation errors that 7arcs makes (I note you haven't come up with any explanations for Teana's Variable Bust yet). And as Eva pointed out, what calculations you do use are simplified and don't go in deep enough.

If that ain't halfassed, I don't know what is. Besides, you never denied being a hypocrite - only that being halfassed was more hypocritical. Hoist by your own petard.

Regarding animation vs text, I'd give greater weight to the text sources. To use an example from a different anime, take the VF-25 Messiah from Macross Frontier. In Episode 1 Deculture and Episode 1 Broadcast (there are minor differences between both episode versions), Henri Gilliam enters City Frontier and engages the Vajra Large Type that's attacking away. From out of nowhere, 3 missiles hit the Vajra. Camera pans up to show Gilliam's VF-25F descending, gunpod blazing. The way the scene is setup is to show that the VF-25 fired off missiles at the Vajra, then went guns blazing for close combat.

The problem? Every single textual source put out after that episode has repeatedly said that as a cost-cutting and simplification measure, the VF-25 lacks internal missile bays, relying on the external Super and Armored Packs to mount ordanance.

One advantage for magic, at any rate: you don't have to worry about food and ammo, just food. That simplifies your logistics somewhat. Of course, food storage raises it's own can of worms (I work in the food service industry. Believe me, I know). And getting food that everyone will be able to eat, regardless of cultural sensitivities is a real pain in the ass.

[Nagumo]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Now I am imagining Cinque maniacally eating chocolate bars like Mello in Death Note.

Hm, now this is just a fun rough draft but...

Uno = Cake
Due = Chocolate Truffles (esp. expensive ones)
Tre = Ice cream and Gelato
Quattro = Soda/pop
Cinque = Chocolate bars (esp. milk chocolates)
Sein =
Sette =
Otto = Chocolate bars (esp. with nuts)
Nove =
Dieci =
Wendi =
Deed = Cookies/baked goods

Fill in the blanks for others!

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Nagumo

Hm, now this is just a fun rough draft but...

Uno = Cake
Due = Chocolate Truffles (esp. expensive ones)
Tre = Ice cream and Gelato
Quattro = Soda/pop
Cinque = Chocolate bars (esp. milk chocolates)
Otto = Chocolate bars (esp. with nuts)
Deed = Cookies/baked goods

Fill in the blanks for others!

Sein = Meringue
Sette = Croissants
Nove =
Dieci = Donuts
Wendi =

[Tempy]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Sein = Meringue
Sette = Croissants
Nove =
Dieci = Donuts
Wendi =

Nove = Baked Alaska
Wendi = QUEEN OF PUDDINGS

[Nagumo]

Uno = Cheese Cake
Due = Chocolate Truffles (esp. expensive ones)
Tre = Ice cream and Gelato
Quattro = Soda/pop
Cinque = Chocolate bars (esp. milk chocolates)
Sein = Meringue
Sette = Croissants
Otto = Chocolate bars (esp. with nuts)
Nove = Baked Alaska
Dieci = Donuts
Wendi = QUEEN OF PUDDINGS
Deed = Cookies/baked goods

You can also debate the ones that have been assigned before. Quattro needs a bit more work, does she seem like the soda/pop type?

[Avatar_notADV]

Are you kidding? Sein eats the nougat out of chocolates -without eating the chocolate-. Ultimate prank eating. Also notorious for raiding the others' supplies when they're not looking... or, most devilishly, coming up from the table and eating their food straight off their plate!

I don't see most of the other ones, to be honest. I can't imagine Tre being discriminate in her sugar consumption. We know that Subaru isn't - she'll take ice cream in tremendous quantities when she can get it, but she doesn't turn her nose up at choco-pods or indeed any edible carbohydrate that we've seen.

I can imagine one or two of the Numbers being picky about their dessert of choice, but most of 'em probably don't care less. And we're veering off topic, though in a hilarious fashion.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Not my fault you were hoist by your own petard. You're just as halfassed in your own way. You use animation, an inherently inaccurate medium as your benchmark, wilfully ignoring the animation errors that 7arcs makes

Oh trust me. Any apparent or real animation errors I try to skip over will eventually be brought up by my opponents...

(I note you haven't come up with any explanations for Teana's Variable Bust yet).

To me, "Variable Bust" simply isn't very interesting. It could have been angle - the human eye's intuitive algorithms can be fooled (if they can't, we won't have to try and stadia the screen, and if it cannot be "fooled" at all we won't be able to appreciate film). But let's say after the most exhaustive calculation we'll find substantial discrepancies.

If you use your "police sketch" analogies, accurately drawing Teana's bust wasn't considered very important. HOWEVER, before you charge on to that conclusion, I'll point out the reason you can conclude that is because you can find alternate data. In most cases you simply cannot find that contradiction, and the principle of canonicity thus means that you are to assume the data is valid. In any case, you won't be justified in concluding that Teana's bust size is not within the range shown on screen.

And as Eva pointed out, what calculations you do use are simplified and don't go in deep enough.

In that particular scenario, considering the limitations of the data, there is no data to fill any blanks. He might as well have complained that I didn't factor for the unknowable wind.

As for going "deep enough", what is "deep enough". Calculations are fundamentally approximations of reality. There are many reasons for not going to the ultimate depth:
1) The data to perform the calculation to the ultimate depth is not available (true in the case mentioned).
2) The errors introduced by not performing certain calculations is not significant compared to the errors in determining the input values (also true).
3) Considering the required precision, the errors introduced are inconsequential (also true).

As such, a criticism of not "deep enough" is only valid if you can demonstrate that by going the extra mile, you can overturn the conclusion that was made by the simpler calculation, or at least demonstrate large errors. For example, if Xgouki can show by calculating for air resistance (unlikely, since V2 of the calculations already used more than the maximum on this point) or observable gyrations (which will be extremely difficult considering we had all of 3 frames to use...) will conclude Subaru as able to grind clean through tank plate, it would have been a very valid criticism. If all it does is change a couple of digits close to the end, it is at best a nitpick.

Regarding animation vs text, I'd give greater weight to the text sources. To use an example from a different anime, take the VF-25 Messiah from Macross Frontier. In Episode 1 Deculture and Episode 1 Broadcast (there are minor differences between both episode versions), Henri Gilliam enters City Frontier and engages the Vajra Large Type that's attacking away. From out of nowhere, 3 missiles hit the Vajra. Camera pans up to show Gilliam's VF-25F descending, gunpod blazing. The way the scene is setup is to show that the VF-25 fired off missiles at the Vajra, then went guns blazing for close combat.

The problem? Every single textual source put out after that episode has repeatedly said that as a cost-cutting and simplification measure, the VF-25 lacks internal missile bays, relying on the external Super and Armored Packs to mount ordanance.

In other words, the anime seems to imply, but does not explicitly show the missiles as coming from Giiliam's fighter. In such a case you are forced to say the missiles came elsewhere and that there is no contradiction - your inference was simply wrong. Your example is actually invalid.

To improve it, we'll say that the anime explicitly shows the missiles as coming from Giliam's fighter. In that case, you can either say Giliam's fighter was some kind of one-off (the book doesn't mention that; there's no need to waste space mentioning what everyone can frigging see), or maybe the book was wrong - if they tried to make it some kind of In-Universe publication, it'll be instant "death".

[MeisterBabylon]

First it was ol Graham with Hayate spending his retirement funds away, then we realize that ol Gen has the same problem, times 7.

Someone has to get this written out NAO.

Originally Posted by Nagumo

Uno = Cheese Cake
Due = Chocolate Truffles (esp. expensive ones)
Tre = Ice cream and Gelato
Quattro = Soda/pop
Cinque = Chocolate bars (esp. milk chocolates)
Sein = Meringue
Sette = Croissants
Otto = Chocolate bars (esp. with nuts)
Nove = Baked Alaska
Dieci = Donuts
Wendi = QUEEN OF PUDDINGS
Deed = Cookies/baked goods

You can also debate the ones that have been assigned before. Quattro needs a bit more work, does she seem like the soda/pop type?

No monster crepe? Wait no imouto-type Number.

[Kyral]

Originally Posted by Nagumo

Uno = Cheese Cake
Due = Chocolate Truffles (esp. expensive ones)
Tre = Ice cream and Gelato
Quattro = Soda/pop
Cinque = Chocolate bars (esp. milk chocolates)
Sein = Meringue
Sette = Croissants
Otto = Chocolate bars (esp. with nuts)
Nove = Baked Alaska
Dieci = Donuts
Wendi = QUEEN OF PUDDINGS
Deed = Cookies/baked goods

You can also debate the ones that have been assigned before. Quattro needs a bit more work, does she seem like the soda/pop type?

And with this list... an image of the Numbers 'assaulting' Midori-ya and eating all the sweets pops in mind.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV

I can imagine one or two of the Numbers being picky about their dessert of choice, but most of 'em probably don't care less. And we're veering off topic, though in a hilarious fashion.

Well, considering we're discussing what keeps the Cyborgs running, we're technically not off-topic.

Besides, this thread has been in 'serious business mode' for far too long. It's time for some hilarity.

[Wild Goose]

Being sick, I cannot be fully assed to reply longly, lest I slip and let my mockery show even more. Professor, yes Professor, I shall sit and post half-assedly, Professor!

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Oh trust me. Any apparent or real animation errors I try to skip over will eventually be brought up by my opponents...

And yet you charge headlong. Glutton for punishment, aren't you? Are you sure you're a Hongkie and not a Singie?

To me, "Variable Bust" simply isn't very interesting.

HERESY! BUST IS ALWAYS INTERESTING! MAIM! KILL! BURN!!!

In other words, the anime seems to imply, but does not explicitly show the missiles as coming from Giiliam's fighter. In such a case you are forced to say the missiles came elsewhere and that there is no contradiction - your inference was simply wrong. Your example is actually invalid.

To improve it, we'll say that the anime explicitly shows the missiles as coming from Giliam's fighter. In that case, you can either say Giliam's fighter was some kind of one-off (the book doesn't mention that; there's no need to waste space mentioning what everyone can frigging see), or maybe the book was wrong - if they tried to make it some kind of In-Universe publication, it'll be instant "death".

Even if the VF-25F is a mass-production fighter, of which multiple copies are seen, and despite multiple opportunities to do so, it is never seen using missiles without the Super or Armored Packs, and that every single piece of technical information released is by the guy who's the executive producer of the anime, mecha designer and the guy who writes the series bible?

*shrug* Then again in Macross, the power of friendship and the Power of Rock and the Power of Idol Singers are shown to defeat nukes...

[Avatar_notADV]

Ah, an alt-verse story where the Numbers are secretly hiding on a planet without a developed magical culture, biding their time, and incidentally patronizing a cafe with unusually good sweets...

Well, it would be a good thematic fit with the sound stage where Hayate and the knights all go to the public bath at the same time as Nanoha and company, right?

[Keroko]

Jail does seem like the type to give his girls a day off...

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

First of all, transmission of the 'signal'. We're using a non-physical connection, but there are a variety of ways to go about it. A wide, unfocused 'broadcast' would be detectable, interperateable, and jammable/hackable, where as a tight beam or even 'laser' transmission would be hard to intercept.

Realistically, directionality is not free - such as in terms of being more demanding of the transmitting system. Frankly, for secure communications, I'll think 'wire' is a better idea. It is easy to implement. Some rounds are quite apparently wire-guided, most spectacularly Stinger Snipe. And even the absence of a visible wire does not ban the idea of a very thin wire, or a wire that's not made visible.

After that, the next issue is signal format. Are we dealing with the magical equal to Analogue, or Digital? I would guess the latter, given that devices are extremely intelligent computer cores. If you're persuing the wrong format, you'll never get the signal right.

Actually, I'll argue that Analogue is canonically much more likely. The devices are intelligent, but however much help they might be in preparing magic, their ability to calculate relatively simple firing and control solutions (trig) is sharply limited. This seems to imply the "computer core" is mostly analogue, with a brain analogue cerebral cortex and perhaps some dedicated analogue circuitry for magic, and no analog system for ballistic calculation.

Further, the fact that mages can control rounds without devices strongly implies analogue processing and analogue signals. The human animal is analogue, and generally can barely fudge a digital calculation together using emulation, so digitally controlled designs will be hard to implement.

Finally, an analogue system requires fewer parts in the "bomb" (certainly no A/D converter since ultimately to work in the real world the digital values have to be converted back to analogue signals). In conclusion, there seems little reason for the complexity of the digital system.

Then there's actual data security, cryptography. You don't even need quantum cryptography, just some decently high bit random number. The only two way communication is going to be directly between Raising Heart, and one of the spheres. Raising Heart could logically, generate a unique encryption for each and every single shooter sphere fired, and generate a new one every time Nanoha fires a shot. Given the short lifetime of such an attack, a disposable encryption is actually highly effective. Any hacker trying to hijack Nanoha's attack has to seperately decrypt sixteen different codes, codes that will not be the same the next time the attack is fired.

Given a digital interpretation, this is possible. However, I'll add that you should shoot noise into the signals for the controllable rounds. A big part of getting encryption to work is to NOT let the decipherer know exactly what the original looks like. However, since the round responds to signals often in plain view of the enemy, it is not hard to match certain intercepted bursts to certain commands.

Now, as for Guidance beyond line of sight... The 'magical' properties of a 'magic' wave probably just pass through inert objects, so technically, for the magic item and the user, they aren't out of the Line of Sight with each other.

Heck, for all we know, it might be a sound like thing, or similar to long wave radio with substantial penetration. Even normal radio has some penetration (so our cell phones for example, work).

[LoweGear]

Admittedly I cannot logically contribute much to the discussion, but...

A magic bullet by WIRE?!?! Ockham's Razor would tell me that the simplest explanation for Stinger Snipe would be a magic bullet that lasts longer than an average round, highly maneuverable and able to change direction at will. But where does the observation that it's a wire-guided projectile come from?

[arkhangelsk]

How about the very visible tail it leaves? In fact, I don't see how you can associate it with a bullet (which suggests a relatively small round, not a long line leading all the way back to Chrono)...

As for Occam's Razor, you hadn't gotten to a theory at all. You are just throwing out some of the observations.

[Arkeus]

to me, it's not a trail, but it's form. Instead of a "magical bullet", it's a "magical trait" that is somewhat flexible, very dense and magically focused to get into armored objects.

It's advantage would be high penetrative power, while sacrificing some manoeuvrability (it seems it uses pre-arraned flight paths).

[arkhangelsk]

Yes, and how does all that "flexibility" get controlled? Presumably through signals sent up through its length - functionally, a wire!

[Wild Goose]

At some point, Reverand Professor, one has to say, "Fuck it, this is magic" and move along.

Hell, how do you explain Funnels, which are not wire guided and are used where radio communication is impossible due to M-particle interferance?