Character Discussion - Shirley

[GundamAce]

Nobodyman: Much better. While your fic was already good, the addition at least makes the reader know he never truly "abandoned" everyone and that he took some measures to make sure Nunnally was safe. Overall, it improves the quality a bit and I'm glad you did it (while I didn't mention it in my review, I too was a bit concerned with the fact that Lelouch just went and left everyone without doing anything.).

[ginran]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

My my, quite the discussion you two have going on huh?

Anyway, I just wanted to drop in and say that, per the request/advice of my critics, I've had added some more to my Shirlulu fic to explain how Lelouch accounted for Nunnally and his and Shirley's sudden disappearance. Hope you enjoy.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...68#post2436268

Its even better than before!!! and you managed to add it in without making the fic too long, which is what you were worried about before. It was definately a good addition to your fic~ great job again!

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Not quite sure what your point is here. Lelouch obtained the power to change his 'fate' only to want to return to it? This doesn't change the fact that Shirley helped him realize that his 'fate' wasn't so terrible after all.

Perhaps I didn't express that well. Before he had Geass, he was essentially on a ticking clock, stuck hiding with the Ashfords until the point came that they'd have to leave. Once he had Geass, there was the option to stay without having to worry if they were found out, since it wouldn't matter.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

That the world isn't exactly the way one wants it doesn't make it one's enemy though. Lelouch's motive for wanting to destroy it was a personal betrayal.

Fair enough, it was a personal motive. Still, he does at least care to some extent.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Support in the sense of protected them. Allowed them their gentle world, shielded them from ambition-motivated antagonism. Dealt with their 'enemies' (if they actually exist) in the sense of those who wanted to destroy them. The point is that the world was not Lelouch's enemy, he made it so.

But even if we were to assume they'd be so accommodating, which admittedly in the protection sense they probably would be, they would not be so helpful when it came to the kind of reforms Lelouch wanted. It was the entire system Lelouch had a problem with, and those two would not help in overthrowing it.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

None of this constitutes a threat to Nunally's personal safety or a restraint on her pursuit of her goals. People might disapprove and refuse to cooperate, but nobody could actually stop her. If she wanted to pursue internal change, then she damn well could. If the change she advocated brought results, then there's nothing anyone could do.

The Emperor would, just as soon as it became inconvenient. The only reason he didn't stop the first SAZ is because he knew Lelouch would mess it up. The second was probably for much the same reason.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

All he has to do is support somebody who does. Hey look, Nunally.

Who is also mentioned as never being able to reach the throne, as I recall. Apart from that, few share his ideals and fewer still had the means to reach that end.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

It wasn't some idealistic perception that the world was 'wrong' that made the world Lelouch's enemy. It was the reality that it had repeatedly denied him of his happiness. Of course, as the rebellion progressed, it was more and more Lelouch's own actions that were causing this. If Lelouch were to realize this, and percieve that he didn't need to destroy everything to make room for his happiness, he'd have been okay. Instead, the actions of Lelouch and the enemies he'd created culminated in the loss of everything he'd ever cared for, and he gave up on personal happiness completely.

Now we're going in circles. That personal happiness was impossible to grasp with old Britannia looming over the world. The world was his enemy, because he certainly couldn't just leave it be.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Wiping Shirley's memories (of his entire existence, not his identity as Zero) isn't keeping her at arms length, it is walking away from her forever. Shooting Euphie through the heart isn't keeping her at arms length, it is walking away from her forever. That was Lelouch's subscription to 'push your happiness away for its own good'. For that matter, his final call to Rivalz, 'live on' and 'sayonara', as well as his final scene with Nunally, were not keeping them at arms length, they were walking away from them forever. Lelouch believed in that. The complete abandonment of his happiness, the sealing of his emotions. This was the conviction Shirley temporarily managed but ultimately failed to break over the course of the series.

lol. I am not even arguing on this point. As I said, although the double meaning was there, my use of 'won over his heart' referred to having swung Lelouch onto her 'side' (caring for his personal happiness; as opposed to C.C.'s 'push away what is dear to you' and 'I will be the only one left by you in the end'--i.e. the abandonment of it.).

Sorry, it's just a very odd choice of words and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it.

Wiping Shirley's memories of him when they've driven her to the brink of insanity (in hindsight, she could have dealt with it, but that's hindsight for you) is protecting her. Shooting Euphy, who had become an insult to herself through his ill-timed joke, was an act of mercy. Shirley, at least, you do have a point on. He pushed her away because he was doing her harm. Still, this is much more immediate. He is not pushing her away because he might do her harm, he does it because he is actively causing her harm. As for the rest, at that point he'd lost the ability to go back, so he left them behind.

I'll concede that, at the very least, she got him to hope for a time where he could be happy with everyone, but he at least considered as much with Nunnally alone long before that point. It's just an expanded dream.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Eh. As far as the Gefjun trains, it's night. The scrap and bullets too. They were fighting over the metropolitan area, with a focus on the Governor's building. I'm sure most people would have already gone home. If they hadn't, then in the hypothetical case of Shirley interfering, she'd ask them to do it a bit later. Attacking Tokyo doesn't have to involve massive civilian loss, so I don't see why she'd have to oppose it completely.

You don't think people ride the trains at night? Less do, sure, but they were likely carrying passengers. Everyone going home means the buildings they were hitting were packed. Much of the focus was away from the government building, I should also note. Lelouch made it a point not to attack it.

He couldn't do it a bit later, he had the chance and he took it. If they were warned the attack wouldn't work as well.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

lol. No, actually I'm pretty sure we could have counted on Suzaku to even stop them, if he were convinced it wasn't necessary.

Suzaku does not have that kind of authority, and if he tried force someone would shoot his ass out of the sky for treason. This of course assumes Kallen hasn't already fried him.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Lelouch knows Suzaku wouldn't hurt Shirley, and Suzaku knows she wouldn't attack him either. Really, her presence could only have helped. But, this was a plot development related to her death in the first place, so I think this point is a bit too speculative to really get into. I just wanted to say that Shirley being there wouldn't be totally impossible.

I still believe Lelouch would honor the agreement, but fair enough.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

As for proving Shirley wrong, actually no, it wasn't wrong of Lelouch to trust Suzaku. It was wrong of Lelouch to immediately assume a betrayal, and wrong of Suzaku not to try harder to clear that up. Valuing their old friendship turned out to be the right thing, as evidenced by whom they finally decided to trust and depend on in the end, when everything else had gone to shit.

At the moment, she would have been proven wrong. As you point out, Suzaku does not try to clear things up. He silently confirmed the accusation. Later it may have come out right, but that's later and Suzaku has already been broken by mass murder.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

>_< Indeed, as of that last post, it has become entirely too much of a 'quote and rebutt each and every individual point' war. If I'm still doing posts like this by the time the new romance thread opens up, I'll never get any sleep.

LOL, well far be it from me to stop you. It's good for the thread if nothing else. But hey, nothing wrong with taking a break now and then.

Your new additions to your fic are pretty good, and plausible. Actually, I didn't really want to review earlier because my criticism is with the premise of the pivital plot point in the first place, so if you took it seriously it'd negate a huge chunk of the actual content. Actually, I don't like the idea of Shirley's 'recovery' being so instantaneous. I think the effect of geass is more powerful than that, and would find it more believable if Shirley's recovery were a long, hard fought, but ultimately satisfying struggle. This is quite a bit different from your actual fic though, so it doesn't really feel like a constructive critique of your writing skills. Sorry.

Ah, now you raise a good point Sol, and inadvertantly you have given me a critique of my writing skills. See, I had actually contemplated this myself, whether Shirley's recovery would be instantaneous or a gradual process, and actually I had decided it would be somewhat gradual. Now I only have Euphie's and Nunnally's geass-breaking to go by and since Euphie's case was kind of clear, I mainly went by Nunnally who was able to fully supress the geass and was able to see again with no problem.

Now about Shirley, the pivotal point that broke her geass was, of course, his love confession and I think after that her emotions and will (the power of love) became so strong that she was able to suppress it wanted to continue to suppress so she could stay with Lelouch and not go back to her world of practical nonexistance. However, being comatose for five years had pretty much atrophied her whole body, so she couldn't do everything she could do before being geassed. I tried to get this point across by limiting her vocabulary to two words "Lelouch" and "Yes", that she was only able to turn her head and cry. So yeah, the fact that I wasn't able to get that across may be a detriment to my writing skills. But yes, I do imagine that even after breaking through her geass, she still had a long road to recovery left.

Originally Posted by GundamAce

Nobodyman: Much better. While your fic was already good, the addition at least makes the reader know he never truly "abandoned" everyone and that he took some measures to make sure Nunnally was safe. Overall, it improves the quality a bit and I'm glad you did it (while I didn't mention it in my review, I too was a bit concerned with the fact that Lelouch just went and left everyone without doing anything.).

Originally Posted by ginran

Its even better than before!!! and you managed to add it in without making the fic too long, which is what you were worried about before. It was definately a good addition to your fic~ great job again!

Wow, you all liked it that much? Well, I'm glad I added it in then, and I'm glad you all liked it.

[Sol Falling]

@morbos

Shit, backspace going 'previous page' destroyed my reply. This is pretty de-motivating, you might have to wait a while before I get back to you.

@Nobodyman, shortened version of what I was originally gonna say:

Hmm, Nunally's case brings up a good point, although I don't know if her case is really comparable to Shirley's. Regardless though, I guess my only advice would be to do a bit from Shirley's POV? It was just a bit tough going from 'forgotten everything' to 'able to talk and even follow a conversation'. Seeing more of her sort of mental processes leading up to her 'reactivation' would make it more believable.

Ah, like in Nunally's case, we see her struggling on the ground, so we at least know she was trying to do something when she reopened her eyes. Some sign of Lelouch's confession motivating her to struggle, as opposed to the confession being the key itself, would be better.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

@morbos

Shit, backspace going 'previous page' destroyed my reply. This is pretty de-motivating, you might have to wait a while before I get back to you.

Unfortunate, but I understand. Were you using quick reply? That gets cleared out, but a full reply is usually stored so you can bounce back to it.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

@morbos

Shit, backspace going 'previous page' destroyed my reply. This is pretty de-motivating, you might have to wait a while before I get back to you.

Ooh boy, that does suck. I've had that happen to me before and it is quite disheartening. My advice is when you've written up a big wall of text like that, before going away from the page or posting it, be sure you select and copy all of it. That way you'll be able to paste it when you go back to the reply screen and you won't lose it.

@Nobodyman, shortened version of what I was originally gonna say:

Hmm, Nunally's case brings up a good point, although I don't know if her case is really comparable to Shirley's. Regardless though, I guess my only advice would be to do a bit from Shirley's POV? It was just a bit tough going from 'forgotten everything' to 'able to talk and even follow a conversation'. Seeing more of her sort of mental processes leading up to her 'reactivation' would make it more believable.

Ah, like in Nunally's case, we see her struggling on the ground, so we at least know she was trying to do something when she reopened her eyes. Some sign of Lelouch's confession motivating her to struggle, as opposed to the confession being the key itself, would be better.

Yes, I think this is a very good point. I was actually thinking about this myself, but I wasn't sure exactly how to articulate it and, truth be told, I kinda wanted to get on with it and finish it But perhaps I'll go back and work on this as well. Actually, I've got a few plotbunnies running around in my head, and boy are they-a-multiplyin'. So I may even do a sequel chapter to this story which will go into more detail of her recovery.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Unfortunate, but I understand. Were you using quick reply? That gets cleared out, but a full reply is usually stored so you can bounce back to it.

Hmm, are you sure? *clicks the backspace page* Oh, waddya know? Yep, I guess this'll work, but also you need to be sure that you don't stay on the reply screen for too long, otherwise your "session" will be timed out and you'll lose everything you typed. It's a very good idea to copy everything you've posted if you've been on the reply screen a long time.

[GundamAce]

Sequel chapter, huh? I'd love to see that! But hey, you're the author and I'm just the reader, I have no right to tell you what to write.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by GundamAce

Sequel chapter, huh? I'd love to see that! But hey, you're the author and I'm just the reader, I have no right to tell you what to write.

LOL, hey you don't need to be so timid. As the reader you have every right to wish for me to continue and to voice your opinion (I might not necessarily continue it, but you have the right to wish I would ) Anyway, when/if I do write it, it may not be for a little while since I'm working on my surprise for the RT. Plus I'm into the last week of my Summer writing class so I've got a ton of sh*t to to write.

[Nobodyman9]

All right, sorry for the double post but we need some more Shirley love.

Now, we've discussed before whether there could possibly have been anyone for Shirley other than Lelouch, and for the most part people said no. Shirley had feelings only for Lelouch and there wasn't really any chemistry between her and anyone else within the canon of the show.

However, does anyone have any speculation on whether or not a relationship could have potentially worked between her and anyone else? Yes, nothing did happen between her and anyone other than Lelouch, but say if you just paired her up with someone. Do you think it would work? Is there anyone else in the show that really complements her could effectively have a relationship with her?

The only two people I could think of might be Rivalz and Suzaku. Rivalz is kind of a dork, but aside from Suzaku and Lelouch he's her only other male classmate that she constantly talks with. Plus, he seems like a nice guy, and she's a nice girl so I think they could definitely get along if they were in a relationship.

As far as Suzaku, well, aside from that topping scene Shirley has a tendency to want to help people, so she could help Suzaku with his own personal turmoil. Also, Shirley's kind of similar to Euphie so Suzaku coming to really like or love a person like her.

Your thoughts?

[GundamAce]

Mmm...no, I can't really think of anyone else that would work out. I really don't see Rivalz and Shirley together- they're friends, yes, but I just can't see it working out between the two of them in a relationship. As for Suzaku- if it were pre-Episode 23, then it might have possibly worked out, but it definately wouldn't have happened post Episode 23, at least IMO.

[Tr3adst0ne]

Doesn't mean you can't entertain the notion. That's what fanfics are for. ^.^

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

All right, sorry for the double post but we need some more Shirley love.

Now, we've discussed before whether there could possibly have been anyone for Shirley other than Lelouch, and for the most part people said no. Shirley had feelings only for Lelouch and there wasn't really any chemistry between her and anyone else within the canon of the show.

However, does anyone have any speculation on whether or not a relationship could have potentially worked between her and anyone else? Yes, nothing did happen between her and anyone other than Lelouch, but say if you just paired her up with someone. Do you think it would work? Is there anyone else in the show that really complements her could effectively have a relationship with her?

The only two people I could think of might be Rivalz and Suzaku. Rivalz is kind of a dork, but aside from Suzaku and Lelouch he's her only other male classmate that she constantly talks with. Plus, he seems like a nice guy, and she's a nice girl so I think they could definitely get along if they were in a relationship.

As far as Suzaku, well, aside from that topping scene Shirley has a tendency to want to help people, so she could help Suzaku with his own personal turmoil. Also, Shirley's kind of similar to Euphie so Suzaku coming to really like or love a person like her.

Your thoughts?

After her tearful confession to Lelouch as she lay in a pool of her own blood? I can't even imagine her with anyone else.

Rivalz is hot for the student council president. It's so obvious; remember his reaction to finding out she was engaged to Lloyd? Well, she broke the engagement off, so...

Suzaku, maybe. Maybe. It works more in my head than Suzaku/Kallen does. No offense to either of them, but a tomboy like Kallen doesn't seem to be Suzaku's type and Shirley is closer to Euphie than Kallen is.

[snowdevil_crow]

I can see her with Suzaku, very easily. Actually, it almost seemed to me like they were kind of pushing for it a bit in the anime --- the time he falls on top of her in Stage 7 (that whole classic schoolkids love thing), how he worried especially over her in Stage 8, how she was the first one to be accepting of him (though I understand that's more of an expression of her character than any indication of romantic interest), how they joked about being on a date in Turn 13... yes, I'd say there was some potential there.

Lelouch, I'd say, will always be her first and 'true' love, but I could see something starting between her and Suzaku... perhaps it could have been interesting to follow up on during the time she didn't have any memories of Lelouch. :/

And, incidentally, SuzaShirLulu would be a great threesome. *_*

[synaesthetic]

In the context of season one, yes, a Shirley/Suzaku pairing is likely. In the second season notsomuch. Things really got bad for... practically everyone in R2. I blame the writers.

[Nobodyman9]

Hmm, very good assessments from snowdevil crow and everyone else. Anyway, I know I'm being kind of vague about this, but my idea is, forgetting about the circumstances and events of the show, do you think there's anyone in the CG universe that could have a successful romantic relationship with her? Pretty much all you have to do is take into account is their personalities and, to an extent, their occupations and roles in the CG world. I mean, you could speculate on people she barely even knows or never even met (Gino, Lloyd, Ougi, etc.) I don't know. It's just an idea

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

After her tearful confession to Lelouch as she lay in a pool of her own blood? I can't even imagine her with anyone else.

Oh trust me, I sincerely agree with you. Within the canon of the show I definitely believe Lelouch was her true. And the fact that it's just so hard to imagine her with anyone else...well, I guess that just further proves that she was meant to be with him.

[Kid Ying]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

I can see her with Suzaku, very easily. Actually, it almost seemed to me like they were kind of pushing for it a bit in the anime --- the time he falls on top of her in Stage 7 (that whole classic schoolkids love thing), how he worried especially over her in Stage 8, how she was the first one to be accepting of him (though I understand that's more of an expression of her character than any indication of romantic interest), how they joked about being on a date in Turn 13... yes, I'd say there was some potential there.

Lelouch, I'd say, will always be her first and 'true' love, but I could see something starting between her and Suzaku... perhaps it could have been interesting to follow up on during the time she didn't have any memories of Lelouch. :/

And, incidentally, SuzaShirLulu would be a great threesome. *_*

I never thought of any of this watching the series(i guess the fact that Shirley love for Lelouch was so big that no one else had a chance), but you got a point, Snow. And they make a nice couple, besides it would be nice to have a couple between a Japanese and a Britannian. You can't compare with a japanese getting together with the princess, but before Euphemia's debut, it would be pretty meaningful.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

But even if we were to assume they'd be so accommodating, which admittedly in the protection sense they probably would be, they would not be so helpful when it came to the kind of reforms Lelouch wanted. It was the entire system Lelouch had a problem with, and those two would not help in overthrowing it.

Not to mention what Cornelia and Schneizel actually stood for. During season 1, Cornelia not only supported Britannia's repressive policies, she enforced them with an iron fist straight from the battlefield. She changed by Zero Requiem but that kind of goes to show you how deep she was in her beliefs.

And Schneizel? We all know the man had his own agenda.

The Emperor would, just as soon as it became inconvenient. The only reason he didn't stop the first SAZ is because he knew Lelouch would mess it up. The second was probably for much the same reason.

I think it was that Charles knew that Lelouch wouldn't oppose his own sister that he was trying to save.

Who is also mentioned as never being able to reach the throne, as I recall. Apart from that, few share his ideals and fewer still had the means to reach that end.

Not to mention that given the whole concept of fighting for the throne Charles pontificated on Lelouch when the latter confronted him about the incident, Nunnally was already considered "weak" and IIRC unfit for the throne.

Now we're going in circles. That personal happiness was impossible to grasp with old Britannia looming over the world. The world was his enemy, because he certainly couldn't just leave it be.

Exactly. He'd have to take the "ignorance is bliss" way out. (And almost did in Turn 7 via Refrain.)

[Nobodyman9]

^Hmm, not sure what any of that has to do with Shirley

Anyway, here's a new question. Everything else remaining constant, what do you think Shirley's life would've been like if she'd never met Lelouch?

[Kid Ying]

Good.

There's not much to say. I think she would be a loveable and cheerful girl as always, just without the "Lulu". Maybe even finding happiness with another nice guy, like Suzaku.