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kakakka · 2012-02-13, 17:34

This is a battle of wills. In my opinion, if people don't have the will and the patience, they wouldn't pass this test. To make a person give up, you must beat him in his own game, or find a common ground and then deal that blow that'll make the opponent lose the edge and give up. I think Gon wanting a "fair" match is not much far from the purpose of this test. This is not a simple one-on-one hand combat.

Hanzo, I think, was really hasty here. He went to view Gon as a kid and went to torture him, thinking that just like any ordinary kid, he'll just give up in fear of getting hurt. But Gon is not ordinary. I think his confrontation with Hisoka prior is one example. Even that play with Netero comes to mind. Gon already has unbelievable guts and is stubborn (and crazy even). Hanzou has to play another game to make Gon give up.

Hanzou played the torture/fear game, and he lost, not just because of Gon, but also his inability to know the opponent better. Gon already faced death couple of times in the past, this is no exception. Gon asking for a a fair game points on what Hanzou has failed to do.

Guardian Enzo · 2012-02-13, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiroth

I think you're misunderstanding Gon's character. Gon didn't outsmart Hanzo, he just simply didn't want to give up. It's that simple.

I don't think it is that simple, and I don't think you're giving him enough credit. I do believe his desire to have a "fair fight" with Hanzo was genuine (though that wouldn't really have been fair to Hanzo) but he also knew at the most basic level he didn't have to physically defeat Hanzo - he just had to make him surrender.

Anh_Minh · 2012-02-13, 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

The way I see it, Gon outsmarted Hanzo. He figured out that by the rules of the game, as long as he didn't surrender he would eventually win. Hanzo couldn't figure out a way to make him surrender, so he cut his losses and surrendered himself. Gon played the game better than Hanzo - tough break.

As pointed out, it's a victory that depended a lot on Hanzo being "nice". He could have gone farther, but chose not to. (In part because there's always the next fight.)

Even if Gon didn't surrender, Leorio or Kurapika would have intervened, and Hanzo would have won.

Quote:

I don't think it is that simple, and I don't think you're giving him enough credit. I do believe his desire to have a "fair fight" with Hanzo was genuine (though that wouldn't really have been fair to Hanzo) but he also knew at the most basic level he didn't have to physically defeat Hanzo - he just had to make him surrender.

Well, yeah, Gon did understand that it was about will, not strength. (IIRC, in the manga,

Spoiler for manga:

)

But so did Hanzo. It's hard to say he was truly outsmarted. It's not like Hanzo has to beat Gon.

kitten320 · 2012-02-13, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by kakakka

This is a battle of wills. In my opinion, if people don't have the will and the patience, they wouldn't pass this test. To make a person give up, you must beat him in his own game, or find a common ground and then deal that blow that'll make the opponent lose the edge and give up. I think Gon wanting a "fair" match is not much far from the purpose of this test. This is not a simple one-on-one hand combat.

If Hanzo were to break every bone in his body and then give up because Gon is that stupidly stubborn, he would win. Gon would not be able to function properly anymore, despite getting the title he would be a loser.

What's the point of not giving up if you can't do anything after that?

I hate giving up myself, heck, I have torn my knee ligament 3-4 times now and I still keep training for this last 7-8 years of constant injuries! My family, coach and doctors told me to stop long time ago and yet I'm still opposing their decision!

However, if I tear it again I will most likely stop because if this continues, I might become disabled and that's 100% not the future I want! But after I have my last surgery I will put everything into rehabilitation, strengthening the muscles and training so in case I tear it again, I won't have any regrets in the future.

The person should know the limits and think about future more too, not just present.

kakakka · 2012-02-13, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitten320

If Hanzo were to break every bone in his body and then give up because Gon is that stupidly stubborn, he would win. Gon would not be able to function properly anymore, despite getting the title he would be a loser.

What's the point of not giving up if you can't do anything after that?

Well, that's Gon. There are times in the show that could have hurt him alot or killed him, but he's just like that. Hanzo knew when he gave up that his efforts would be fruitless. The ninja was set on making Gon give up, not destroy him. He cut his losses, knowing there's another chance later.

lordblazer · 2012-02-13, 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I don't think it is that simple, and I don't think you're giving him enough credit. I do believe his desire to have a "fair fight" with Hanzo was genuine (though that wouldn't really have been fair to Hanzo) but he also knew at the most basic level he didn't have to physically defeat Hanzo - he just had to make him surrender.

Gon not wanting to give up is pretty simple. You can't deal with stubborn people you'll be there forever. I don't think Gon was thinking about having actual ability to defeat him it was more so just perseverance which is his nature.

foxxie · 2012-02-14, 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitten320

If Hanzo were to break every bone in his body and then give up because Gon is that stupidly stubborn, he would win. Gon would not be able to function properly anymore, despite getting the title he would be a loser.

What's the point of not giving up if you can't do anything after that?

.

I think hanzo just realized that continue breaking his bones was pointless I mean think about it, what does hanzo want? winning of course, and in order to win he needed to make gon give up, after all the beating up gon was not even thinking in giving up, plus hanzo heard gon's reason to become a hunter and see no vacillation in his eyes

in this exam of wills if you don't figure out a way to make your opponent surrender then you lost, even if you're stronger, sure hanzo could have break more bones but at that point hanzo knew even if he do that the situation wouldn't change and he wouldn't win... so why keep torturing your opponent if you know you are gonna lost anyway?

what makes hanzo give up was gon's determination

so I think gon's winning was fair enough

Anh_Minh · 2012-02-14, 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by foxxie

I think hanzo just realized that continue breaking his bones was pointless I mean think about it, what does hanzo want? winning of course, and in order to win he needed to make gon give up, after all the beating up gon was not even thinking in giving up, plus hanzo heard gon's reason to become a hunter and see no vacillation in his eyes

As I said, Hanzo wants to become a Hunter - if he wanted to win against Gon, he could have just continued.

Quote:

in this exam of wills if you don't figure out a way to make your opponent surrender then you lost, even if you're stronger, sure hanzo could have break more bones but at that point hanzo knew even if he do that the situation wouldn't change and he wouldn't win... so why keep torturing your opponent if you know you are gonna lost anyway?

what makes hanzo give up was gon's determination

so I think gon's winning was fair enough

It's not like he really was at wits' ends. It's just that he wasn't willing to do what it takes to beat Gon. There's a difference.

Guardian Enzo · 2012-02-14, 03:16

Your argument is based on the assumption that Gon, under enough pain, would eventually give up. I don't think Hanzo was "unwilling to do what it takes" - I think he simply believed Gon would lose consciousness or die before surrendering. Thus, there was no way for Hanzo to win.

Gooral · 2012-02-14, 03:48

@Guardian Enzo
You've failed to notice the other thing Anh_Minh was talking about, i.e. that Leorio and Kurapica would intervene if Hanzo did (or tried to do) any more damage. Hanzo knew about it because he saw how Leorio reacted and also saw that he was warned by the judges.

Anyway, I agree with Anh_Minh on this. Although it wasn't only that Hanzo was being nice, he also knew that his next opponent won't be anyone in his league either and that he would have 4 more chances (he saw the chart) and since he wasn't a sadist it would be an overkill to torture Gon any further just to receive a reward he would get anyway (but a moment later).

Guardian Enzo · 2012-02-14, 04:01

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that Leorio and Kurapika were going to step in. Kurpika went red-eyed at the idea that Hanzo was going to cut Gon's legs off, but that was always a bluff and once Gon called it, I think the two of them realized that whatever happened, Gon wouldn't want them to interfere.

fanty · 2012-02-14, 04:12

As some posters upthread, I was also a bit irritated with Gon's stupid stubborness. That sort of stupidity is definitely not something I find admirable. He got lucky that Hanzo wasn't a cruel sadistic guy.

Keroko · 2012-02-14, 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that Leorio and Kurapika were going to step in. Kurpika went red-eyed at the idea that Hanzo was going to cut Gon's legs off, but that was always a bluff and once Gon called it, I think the two of them realized that whatever happened, Gon wouldn't want them to interfere.

I think you're giving Gon a bit too much credit here. Do remember that this is the same Gon who demanded Hisoka to take back his badge because he didn't want any help, regardless of the fact that even talking to Hisoka is playing with your life, much less telling him to piss off.

Gon didn't have a clever psychological plan, he just wouldn't give up, regardless of Hanzo's threats. Even if he had cut of his legs, Gon still wouldn't have given up. That's just who he is. A stubborn little juggernaut who will continue on once he sets his mind to something, regardless of the danger to himself.

Toto y Moi · 2012-02-14, 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by fanty

As some posters upthread, I was also a bit irritated with Gon's stupid stubborness. That sort of stupidity is definitely not something I find admirable. He got lucky that Hanzo wasn't a cruel sadistic guy.

Good. You should be criticizing him for this, it's intended. His match might have been charming, but by no means should you walk away from this episode without examining just how stupid Gon's actions really were.

Shiroth · 2012-02-14, 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

I think you're giving Gon a bit too much credit here. Do remember that this is the same Gon who demanded Hisoka to take back his badge because he didn't want any help, regardless of the fact that even talking to Hisoka is playing with your life, much less telling him to piss off.

Gon didn't have a clever psychological plan, he just wouldn't give up, regardless of Hanzo's threats. Even if he had cut of his legs, Gon still wouldn't have given up. That's just who he is. A stubborn little juggernaut who will continue on once he sets his mind to something, regardless of the danger to himself.

Exactly, that's just the type of character Gon is. It's been made clear a huge number of times already (your mention regarding Hisoka's badge being the main one), and there's no changing that with this match up against Hanzo.

FlareKnight · 2012-02-14, 12:38

I find the whole interfering policy kind of odd though. If you jump in then the guy you help fails. Which means if you wanted to pass just get involved in the match of someone who you don't mind seeing fail

. Of course probably would adapt the rule depending on the relationship between competitors, but would be funny if it was a standard rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that Leorio and Kurapika were going to step in. Kurpika went red-eyed at the idea that Hanzo was going to cut Gon's legs off, but that was always a bluff and once Gon called it, I think the two of them realized that whatever happened, Gon wouldn't want them to interfere.

I really don't think it would have gone that way. You really think Leorio or Kurapika really would have cared at that point? Gon can not want them to intervene as much as he wanted, if that match kept on going they would have stepped in. He could have simply returned to breaking various bones. As the rage was building up they knew the whole time that Gon wouldn't want them to step in for him, but that didn't stop Leorio from being one step away from leaping in there.

Anything is possible, but I just don't see any reason to believe they wouldn't have gotten involved if Hanzo had continued with the method of systematically beating Gon senseless.

Dengar · 2012-02-14, 13:37

I thought it was clearly established that Gon is an idiot. And not the comical kind. Why are people surprised by this? I don't think anyone would disagree that Gon was lucky enough that his opponent had the common sense to both realise that continuing to pressure him would be pointless, and that killing him and re-taking the exam next year was unnecessary.

In fact, the only character who did not have this common sense was Killua...

Which reminds me, this is the point in the story where it takes its "First turn towards a darker story".

kakakka · 2012-02-14, 13:57

While I agree Hanzo could have continued, I find a bit hard to believe that he "chose not to continue". Hhhmmm, how do I explain this...

I do think Hanzou did things that hurt Gon alot, and that could lead to Leorio and Kurapica interfering. But after that kick from Gon, I think that made some impact on Hanzo and also, as we saw, to the watchers around. Hanzo is a guy who sometimes gets lost in the moment (monkey impersonation, the manga's sushi test, getting fooled by Killua) and I think when he decided to go for threatening Gon's life, he became sucked into Gon's tide/flow. He became embarrassed and impatient. It's not that he decided not to continue torturing Gon, but he failed to realize (or lost it somewhere...) the implications/results if he continued at that moment. That's my take.

Toto y Moi · 2012-02-14, 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

I thought it was clearly established that Gon is an idiot. And not the comical kind. Why are people surprised by this? I don't think anyone would disagree that Gon was lucky enough that his opponent had the common sense to both realise that continuing to pressure him would be pointless, and that killing him and re-taking the exam next year was unnecessary.

I think that "idiot" is too harsh a term, because Gon is actually very smart and quick to adapt. But Gon definitely did not think his plan through and his actions could have easily gotten him killed. As long as viewers are aware of this, I think that this episode did its job very effectively.

lordblazer · 2012-02-14, 14:20

So my only question is: when will the main characters finally be hunters and the exam arc is over?

2012-02-13, 17:34	Link #801
kakakka Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	This is a battle of wills. In my opinion, if people don't have the will and the patience, they wouldn't pass this test. To make a person give up, you must beat him in his own game, or find a common ground and then deal that blow that'll make the opponent lose the edge and give up. I think Gon wanting a "fair" match is not much far from the purpose of this test. This is not a simple one-on-one hand combat. Hanzo, I think, was really hasty here. He went to view Gon as a kid and went to torture him, thinking that just like any ordinary kid, he'll just give up in fear of getting hurt. But Gon is not ordinary. I think his confrontation with Hisoka prior is one example. Even that play with Netero comes to mind. Gon already has unbelievable guts and is stubborn (and crazy even). Hanzou has to play another game to make Gon give up. Hanzou played the torture/fear game, and he lost, not just because of Gon, but also his inability to know the opponent better. Gon already faced death couple of times in the past, this is no exception. Gon asking for a a fair game points on what Hanzou has failed to do. Last edited by kakakka; 2012-02-13 at 17:51.

2012-02-14, 13:57	Link #818
kakakka Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	While I agree Hanzo could have continued, I find a bit hard to believe that he "chose not to continue". Hhhmmm, how do I explain this... I do think Hanzou did things that hurt Gon alot, and that could lead to Leorio and Kurapica interfering. But after that kick from Gon, I think that made some impact on Hanzo and also, as we saw, to the watchers around. Hanzo is a guy who sometimes gets lost in the moment (monkey impersonation, the manga's sushi test, getting fooled by Killua) and I think when he decided to go for threatening Gon's life, he became sucked into Gon's tide/flow. He became embarrassed and impatient. It's not that he decided not to continue torturing Gon, but he failed to realize (or lost it somewhere...) the implications/results if he continued at that moment. That's my take. Last edited by kakakka; 2012-02-14 at 14:07.

2012-02-14, 03:48	Link #810
Gooral Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: The town where Copernicus was born. Age: 38	@Guardian Enzo You've failed to notice the other thing Anh_Minh was talking about, i.e. that Leorio and Kurapica would intervene if Hanzo did (or tried to do) any more damage. Hanzo knew about it because he saw how Leorio reacted and also saw that he was warned by the judges. Anyway, I agree with Anh_Minh on this. Although it wasn't only that Hanzo was being nice, he also knew that his next opponent won't be anyone in his league either and that he would have 4 more chances (he saw the chart) and since he wasn't a sadist it would be an overkill to torture Gon any further just to receive a reward he would get anyway (but a moment later).

2012-02-14, 04:12	Link #812
fanty STARVING ARTIST Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: 永遠の冬の国 Age: 33	As some posters upthread, I was also a bit irritated with Gon's stupid stubborness. That sort of stupidity is definitely not something I find admirable. He got lucky that Hanzo wasn't a cruel sadistic guy.

2012-02-14, 13:37	Link #817
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	I thought it was clearly established that Gon is an idiot. And not the comical kind. Why are people surprised by this? I don't think anyone would disagree that Gon was lucky enough that his opponent had the common sense to both realise that continuing to pressure him would be pointless, and that killing him and re-taking the exam next year was unnecessary. In fact, the only character who did not have this common sense was Killua... Which reminds me, this is the point in the story where it takes its "First turn towards a darker story".

2012-02-14, 14:20	Link #820
lordblazer Radical Dreamer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Washington DC	So my only question is: when will the main characters finally be hunters and the exam arc is over?