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Old 2013-01-08, 21:42   Link #31581
AC-Phoenix
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
That is interesting. I didn't consider that yet. The only problem is that in this case the person who threw Kinzo's corpse so close to the chapel either wanted it to be found or would just be stupid to not hide it better.



Sorry if something is not understandable, i wrote this in the middle of the night.
I was too slow with the edit lol - Shanon could have taken it from its original hiding spot to fool Battler The corpse must have been hidden somewhere after all. And the place was most likely the chapel(As the siblings would under normal circumstances have no chance of entering it due to only one key existing) so the way wouldn't even be that far.
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Old 2013-01-08, 21:57   Link #31582
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Natsuhi is not the culprit.
Please show some evidence for this.

Let's forget about Knox's rules. Let's try and remember the rules of the game. What was the first thing that Battler ask when Beato introduced the red truth? How did Beato respond?

The limits that were placed on the red were only imposed on the human side. What was the goal of the human side? Back in EP3, Battler couldn't just call in ghost testimony, or use red truth. He had to find evidence.

I believe then that this is so the human won't just try and say random things in red and get it right by guessing. in EP4, Battler tried guessing what his sin was, and Beato just got more upset.

Jumping into EP5's Courtroom of Illusions. The human side was being asked to present evidence which, if it became conclusive, would become elevated to red. Once Battler tried using a red, they accused him of guessing. This isn't just a violation of Knox's rules, but against the rules of how the red was supposed to work.

This doesn't change the fact that Gold came out of nowhere, or that Dlanor definitely cheated in her spar against Gaap. I just don't believe that they were cheating in EP5 with the red-blue answer session in the Court.
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Old 2013-01-08, 22:09   Link #31583
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Natsuhi is not the culprit.
Please show some evidence for this.

Let's forget about Knox's rules. Let's try and remember the rules of the game. What was the first thing that Battler ask when Beato introduced the red truth? How did Beato respond?

The limits that were placed on the red were only imposed on the human side. What was the goal of the human side? Back in EP3, Battler couldn't just call in ghost testimony, or use red truth. He had to find evidence.

I believe then that this is so the human won't just try and say random things in red and get it right by guessing. in EP4, Battler tried guessing what his sin was, and Beato just got more upset.

Jumping into EP5's Courtroom of Illusions. The human side was being asked to present evidence which, if it became conclusive, would become elevated to red. Once Battler tried using a red, they accused him of guessing. This isn't just a violation of Knox's rules, but against the rules of how the red was supposed to work.

This doesn't change the fact that Gold came out of nowhere, or that Dlanor definitely cheated in her spar against Gaap. I just don't believe that they were cheating in EP5 with the red-blue answer session in the Court.
Knox rules seem fine since they are the way battler solved everything and became game master.
The point was that Battler was never allowed to use the red in the first place, thats why they accused him of 'guessing'
by guessing they thought of him having just tried to say the sentence in red and he got a lucky shot.
Which is why they made sure virgilia couldn't enter as soon as Battler said that she has told him.
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Old 2013-01-09, 00:10   Link #31584
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It's possible that the solution was handed to the siblings (Eva, Rudolf and Rosa) by Shannon and they asked Battler to play detective (maybe to avoid arguing among them) so as to 'force grandad to show up' in the belief it would be some sort of prank. He thought of it as a game as he's not suspecting grandfather is dead until, with Erika's help, he realized what the adults were really planning but, by then, it was too late to pull back as, if he hadn't found the gold, Erika would have found it.

After all this would explain why Battler switched from being unable to solve the epitaph in the prior episodes to solving it so easily in Ep 5.
I'm inclined to think Erika was the target of a murder mystery prank. During the part where Battler allegedly saw Kinzo (and allegedly wasn't listening to Erika), Erika was detailing all of her expectations of what would happen with the family after the discovery of the gold. Since we know that Battler spacing out and seeing Kinzo is a lie, in reality he was probably actually paying attention to what she was saying; and, since Erika is genre savvy and a bitch, what she was saying might well have been a prediction of murder. Then Battler could have been wanting to get back at Erika by pranking her with fake murders.

I'm not exactly comfortable with this many 'probablies', 'maybes', and 'could haves', though. Then again, it seems like every comprehensive theory for EP5 requires these kinds of stretches in reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Alternatively Battler might have seen Yasu dressed up as Beato pointing him to the lion. He didn't believe in Beatrice and he didn't want to sound nut saying he saw her so he gave the first apparently rational explanation that came to his mind, that he saw someone else, namely Kinzo.
I don't think so. Battler didn't have to say it was Kinzo or Beatrice or anybody at all.

Battler: I've found it... that's the signpost to The Golden Land.
Erika: [...] ......You have pretty good powers of observation.
Battler: Grandfather told me about it.
Erika: Huh? Kinzo-san? Where?
Battler: I'm going. [...]

Although this does bring up an interesting point. Battler had no logical reason to lie about this. None. He could have simply let Erika believe he just happened to notice it. But that's not what he did. Instead he lied... it kind of reminds me how Beatrice would take illogical risks sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
However i still prefer the idea he already knew the solution. It explain much better how good he is at solving the epitaph when previously he couldn't really advance.
Well, I'm not just talking about knowing the solution exactly, but also knowing the physical route to the room of gold, because at the point I'm talking about they had already solved the epitaph and all that was left was to figure out how to get from the chapel to wherever the underground VIP room was.

If Battler already knows the way, it implies that he has likely already seen the gold itself. For example, Yasu may have already brought him down there much like she did with Krauss and Natsuhi in Our Confessions (whether at gunpoint or not, I don't know).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
battler saw Ushiromiya Kinzo. dead or Alive does not matter No one would mistake him for another.
I can't seriously consider the idea that Kinzo's corpse was... just sitting visible from somewhere just outside of the chapel.

Also, even if it somehow was, it wouldn't account much for Battler's lie. Battler's lie is not just about seeing Kinzo and recognizing him, but also about Kinzo allegedly telling Battler the way.
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Old 2013-01-09, 03:20   Link #31585
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I'm inclined to think Erika was the target of a murder mystery prank. During the part where Battler allegedly saw Kinzo (and allegedly wasn't listening to Erika), Erika was detailing all of her expectations of what would happen with the family after the discovery of the gold. Since we know that Battler spacing out and seeing Kinzo is a lie, in reality he was probably actually paying attention to what she was saying; and, since Erika is genre savvy and a bitch, what she was saying might well have been a prediction of murder. Then Battler could have been wanting to get back at Erika by pranking her with fake murders.

I'm not exactly comfortable with this many 'probablies', 'maybes', and 'could haves', though. Then again, it seems like every comprehensive theory for EP5 requires these kinds of stretches in reasoning.



I don't think so. Battler didn't have to say it was Kinzo or Beatrice or anybody at all.

Battler: I've found it... that's the signpost to The Golden Land.
Erika: [...] ......You have pretty good powers of observation.
Battler: Grandfather told me about it.
Erika: Huh? Kinzo-san? Where?
Battler: I'm going. [...]

Although this does bring up an interesting point. Battler had no logical reason to lie about this. None. He could have simply let Erika believe he just happened to notice it. But that's not what he did. Instead he lied... it kind of reminds me how Beatrice would take illogical risks sometimes.



Well, I'm not just talking about knowing the solution exactly, but also knowing the physical route to the room of gold, because at the point I'm talking about they had already solved the epitaph and all that was left was to figure out how to get from the chapel to wherever the underground VIP room was.

If Battler already knows the way, it implies that he has likely already seen the gold itself. For example, Yasu may have already brought him down there much like she did with Krauss and Natsuhi in Our Confessions (whether at gunpoint or not, I don't know).



I can't seriously consider the idea that Kinzo's corpse was... just sitting visible from somewhere just outside of the chapel.

Also, even if it somehow was, it wouldn't account much for Battler's lie. Battler's lie is not just about seeing Kinzo and recognizing him, but also about Kinzo allegedly telling Battler the way.
Please re-read my edit it was already there when you posted.
Yasu, or whoever else could have simply made a pointing gesture with the corpse while being hidden behind it. He never #tolf' him the way he pointed somewhere


@ Erika fooled:
Considering how EP 4 mainly shows magic fantasy battles and leaves pretty much every corpse unobserved by battler the answer to EP 4 could indeed be that it was a prank.
This only applies to EP 6 and 4 though.
Ep 4 teaparty's red:
You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you
doesn't necessarily contradict that everyone is alive if you replace the answer 'bomb' with explosion. As its source is in a hidden tunnel it would need time to reach battler.
The red about Kanon being dead wouldn't matter either, if you consider how he is just one of Shanon's personalities.

Most of it happened over the phone, it was probably some sick kind of joke kyrie and rudolf thought up. Maybe it was shanonto make him repent. EP 4 is the only episode you can solve without anyone physically dying until the explosion though.

Again though it would only work for Game 4 and game 6 (until Erika 're'-kills them) though.
For the other games someone has to be the culprit as someone was indeed killed.


Game 5:
The problem with this one, leaving whether the letter and knock existed aside, are the reds Virgilia gave us (and I'm not talking about 'Natsuhi is not the culprit').
I'm more referring to the one where she said that no corpse was ever poved after the people died. in combination with the one that everyone can see at a glance that they are indeed dead.
You can start tackling this from the wordgame angle, and say that they died later, the red was given out in the middle of the game though.
So game 5 was definitely not a prank.
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Old 2013-01-09, 04:54   Link #31586
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Please re-read my edit it was already there when you posted.
Yasu, or whoever else could have simply made a pointing gesture with the corpse while being hidden behind it. He never #tolf' him the way he pointed somewhere
You can't be serious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
@ Erika fooled:
Considering how EP 4 mainly shows magic fantasy battles and leaves pretty much every corpse unobserved by battler the answer to EP 4 could indeed be that it was a prank.

This only applies to EP 6 and 4 though.
Ep 4 teaparty's red:
You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you
doesn't necessarily contradict that everyone is alive if you replace the answer 'bomb' with explosion. As its source is in a hidden tunnel it would need time to reach battler.
Battler sees George's corpse in the main story of EP4, and everyone else's corpse in the EP4 Tea Party (excluding Kanon of course).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
The red about Kanon being dead wouldn't matter either, if you consider how he is just one of Shanon's personalities.
Except that he's the 9th victim, implying 8 people died before he did...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Game 5:
The problem with this one, leaving whether the letter and knock existed aside, are the reds Virgilia gave us (and I'm not talking about 'Natsuhi is not the culprit').
I'm more referring to the one where she said that no corpse was ever poved after the people died. in combination with the one that everyone can see at a glance that they are indeed dead.
You can start tackling this from the wordgame angle, and say that they died later, the red was given out in the middle of the game though.
So game 5 was definitely not a prank.
Virgilia didn't provide that red. It was the Seven Sisters of Purgatory.

anyone looking at George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, or Genji's corpses could confirm at a glance that they are dead doesn't apply to people playing dead or otherwise alive. The red says you can't mistake a dead person for a live one, but you can still mistake a living person for a dead one.
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Old 2013-01-09, 06:39   Link #31587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
You can start tackling this from the wordgame angle, and say that they died later, the red was given out in the middle of the game though.
So game 5 was definitely not a prank.
When exactly was the Red about their corpses given exactly? I went over the manga again, because I can't access the VN right now, and it seems the bodies vanish from the rooms before the red statements about the corpses are given. And regarding wordplay...all of Umineko is about wordplay and writing, so finding the trick hidden in such things shouldn't be that surprising.

Another thing I found when I went over EP5 notes and the manga again:
In the little argument Battler and Erika have in front of Kinzo's study they mention two rather famous mystery novels, The Astrology Murder Case (占星術殺人事件; released in English under The Tokyo Zodiac Murders) and The Non-Serial Murder Case (不連続殺人事件) which both bear interesting similarities to Umineko in general.

The first one deals with the murder of a wealthy family head murdered in a locked room study, who left behind a note detailing the creation of the perfect being "Azoth" through the sacrifice of the virgin women of his family. A few weeks after his death the women die on a trip to a holy mountain and are found dismembered and with one body part missing.
The solution bears an interesting connection to Umineko as well:
Spoiler for Solution:


The second one is about a series of murders surrounding the wealthy Utagawa family. Several strange individuals were invited to the house through apparently faked invitations and 8 murders occur that don't seem to follow any reason or motive, earning this case the name of the Non-Serial Murder Case.
This solution is interesting especially in connection to EP5:
Spoiler for Solution:


I would really like to go over all of Umineko again and find which other works were mentioned or at least hinted at...
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Old 2013-01-09, 07:46   Link #31588
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Except that he's the 9th victim, implying 8 people died before he did...
That does not work:

Remember this? My name is Furudo Erika i am the 18th human on Rokkenjima...... although there are 17 people

After this case any use of an ordinal number seems very untrustworthy.
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Old 2013-01-09, 08:21   Link #31589
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
That does not work:

Remember this? My name is Furudo Erika i am the 18th human on Rokkenjima...... although there are 17 people

After this case any use of an ordinal number seems very untrustworthy.
I think both of you are kind of off...at least to my understanding.
Ordinal numbers do have a certain value, but they have to be read in the exact context they are given.

Out of the 5 people including Kyrie, he was the first to die. In other words this means that he is the 9th victim.
Nowhere does it say that 8 people DIED before him, just that he would be considered the 9th victim (in Japanese giseisha) of whatever is happening.
That the order of sacrifices and the order of the actual murders is not necessarily the same was already implied in EP2 through the sacrifices from 4th to 8th being Shannon-Gohda-George-Nanjo-Kumasawa, while the depicted order of deaths in the narrative was Nanjo-Kumasawa-Gohda-George-Shannon. It was then again highlighted in EP3 by Eva Beatrice jumbling sacrificial order and order of death of Kyrie-Rudolph-Hideyoshi around.

The Erika problem is similar in how numbers are meant to deceive in the way they are used. The Red Erika gives is:
I am the visitor, the 18th human of Rokkenjima!!
Which merely tells us that in addition to the 17 human characters that seem to exist on Rokkenjima there was an uninvited visitor. It could have been Furudo Erika or an old woman who brought cookies for Kumasawa and did not make it back. It doesn't matter though because,
Even if we accepted you...we are 17.

Actually looking back on EP1 it would only be logical (intended by Ryukishi or not) for that space to exist because, as given in the endroll of EP1, the case was later also known as "The Killing of the 18 on Rokkenjima".
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Old 2013-01-09, 09:10   Link #31590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
My name is Furudo Erika i am the 18th human on Rokkenjima...... although there are 17 people
Some take it as the "role" of her character: she is introduced as the "guest" and "18th human", since the narrative itself introduced her as such. You could say it was the character description when she applied for the role. Even though there are only 17 with her...
Generally I go with this one too.

It has also been argued not too long ago that it might mean "the 18th human-character shown to be on Rokkenjima in this tale of 1986". Kanon was never a fully independent human.. question is, who is the 17th then? Maybe Kinzo...he did live at some point, even though not in 1986 - but he was portrayed as being alive for four episodes. "He is the 17th human(-character shown as "part of the human-side" in this story on Rokkenjima 1986), the head of the Ushiromiya household, portrayed as being alive but ultimately dead from the start." Not too sure about how to explain the 17th human though; even though Kinzo is a character based on a human it just opens up too many uncertainties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer
Yeah, that was a fun little debate, and I liked the writer of that monologue... but isn't "dozens fell" an exaggeration of... irresponsible proportions?
Sure, I was exaggerating and I'm not always entirely serious in what I say. 3 from their side participated as far as I remember. And all three 'fell', though one of them seemed to make a comeback later (due to the EP1 1st Twilight). It's kinda sad that the argument never really got off. There was a bit about the alternate solution to the Logic Error and the implications of what Yasu wanted to portray but then it ... didn't really go anywhere. I really liked the atmosphere though, as opposed to the one on Youtube.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer
Since when was Battler all-seeing?
He is all-seeing whenever you use irony. 'cause he isn't, even with the Detective's Authority. Was just surprised that a solution like "the gun was hidden behind the shelf" would be allowed with an (incompetent) Detective around, but they never entered the room after all so I can't argue back and will have to accept it.

Though the picture of Shannon franctically smashing her head repeatedly into the stake, barely able to keep the stake stable on the night table, crying in pain, seemed to portray her desperation and anguish pretty well. Pity... oh well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma
Actually looking back on EP1 it would only be logical (intended by Ryukishi or not) for that space to exist because, as given in the endroll of EP1, the case was later also known as "The Killing of the 18 on Rokkenjima".
Actually, when did they start calling it like this? Following the incident or after the first bottle was made public?

Last edited by qno2; 2013-01-09 at 09:26.
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Old 2013-01-09, 10:58   Link #31591
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Probably the publication of the message bottles. The police presumably didn't know how many people there were, and only likely knew who was "supposed" to be there in part (for example, I doubt the police had any way of knowing which servants were supposed to be on duty other than the vague testimony of servants who knew it was their days off).

The message bottles advance 18 apparent humans, including Shannon, Kanon, and Kinzo, all of whom appear to be alive. When it became popular to "realize" that Kinzo was probably long dead, it opened a space for an 18th person in the minds of writers.

I think this is an example of how changes made to the story in-progress may have damaged the flow of the narrative. Kinzo being confirmed dead in ep4 and Beatrice lowering the person count is not as elegant as not confirming his death until ep5, introducing Erika beforehand, and announcing that everything is just the same as before. Sure, lots of people already knew, but that's no reason to screw around with it?

Honestly, the whole show trial segment would've been a bit more punchy had Kinzo's death only finally been confirmed at around that time.
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Old 2013-01-09, 11:59   Link #31592
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I think this is an example of how changes made to the story in-progress may have damaged the flow of the narrative. Kinzo being confirmed dead in ep4 and Beatrice lowering the person count is not as elegant as not confirming his death until ep5, introducing Erika beforehand, and announcing that everything is just the same as before. Sure, lots of people already knew, but that's no reason to screw around with it?
It sure would have worked better if Proto-Erika/Virgilius had been introduced around EP3 already. I kind of reasoned around an empty slot being filled by somebody else for quite a long time, basically since they introduced Eva-Beato and made the whole "I stand for somebody, but not necessarily for a definitive person" plot a thing.

I kind of got what Erika was about from the very moment she was introduced somehow, or at least I was thinking in the direction that was decided upon at the end of EP6, so I can't say that I think it's a bad plot element. Still I agree with you that it could have been handled
a) more elegantly and
b) in a way that serves the plot much more

Like this the whole "we are 18 but 17" thing is just like a neat little afterword that either confirms the suspicions you had or has no impact beyond the tension it holds in that very scene. Erika's existence was that of a half-life anyway so, nothing lost, nothing gained...

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2
Actually, when did they start calling it like this? Following the incident or after the first bottle was made public?
Well, going by the endroll of EP1:
Quote:
Many years later.
At the pier of a neighboring island, a fisherman pulled ashore a mysterious wine-bottle adrift in the waves.
Inside, tightly packed and written in the smallest letters, there was a bundle of detail laden pages stuffed inside.
That very thing was….this story.
People first learned of the events, surrounding the mysterious and strange two days that started on the enigmatic 4th October 1986, through these pages.

After this the incident became known as “The Rokkenjima Mass Murder Incident” or “The Killing of the 18 on Rokkenjima”, but among the people with a taste for the fantastic in this world it was passed on as “The Witch Legend Serial Murder Case”.

Lovers of the occult, insisting on it being the remains of this island being plunged into an immoral ritual, kept propagating explanations of these mystery-filled two days, adorning them with grotesque imageries.
But, no matter what explanation it was, not one of them arrived at the truth of this incident.

And the pages from the wine-bottle as well, while they tell of this incident full of riddles, they don’t tell the truth.
No...the author of these pages might not have known the truth either.
So it was after at least the first message bottle was found.
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Old 2013-01-09, 12:18   Link #31593
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Still odd that they're talking about the "killing of the 18" when they talk about the 'incident', considering Eva survived. Unless the police had reason to believe that 19 were there. Guess you can still claim that it's purely referring to "the incident portrayed in the story", not "the actual incident on Rokkenjima 1986", meh.
Well... I still hold the opinion that Ryu came up with our current prime, or what we at least call that way, when he rewrote EP3.


Looking at the last two lines you quoted... wow, we should've known from the very start where our journey is going. Damn genre-conventions making us believe ominous letters about mass murder!
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Old 2013-01-09, 12:19   Link #31594
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I kind of got what Erika was about from the very moment she was introduced somehow, or at least I was thinking in the direction that was decided upon at the end of EP6, so I can't say that I think it's a bad plot element. Still I agree with you that it could have been handled
a) more elegantly and
b) in a way that serves the plot much more

Like this the whole "we are 18 but 17" thing is just like a neat little afterword that either confirms the suspicions you had or has no impact beyond the tension it holds in that very scene. Erika's existence was that of a half-life anyway so, nothing lost, nothing gained...
Probably. My main issue is just they ended up going "The number is lower... wait now it's back where it was because of Erika!" It kind of spoiled what could otherwise be an appropriately confusing trick that would be clear to everybody who had already figured it out (not that it wasn't reasonably clear to begin with).

In all honesty, lowering the count then raising it again makes Shkanon more suspicious when you get to ep6's conclusion, because now you know exactly who you're not supposed to be looking at (Kinzo or Erika). For example, had it been more ambiguous some people might've read the ending as a mere blanket denial of Erika, rather than a giant flashing neon sign indicating two of the other characters are one.

And yes I agree with you that had proto-Erika been implemented when Ryukishi had initially meant to that the flow might've been fine the way it was, but it would've also rather significantly changed what ep5 and probably ep6 became too, so who knows how that would've gone.
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Old 2013-01-09, 12:25   Link #31595
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
When exactly was the Red about their corpses given exactly?
It was while Gaap was moving the first twilight corpses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
It has also been argued not too long ago that it might mean "the 18th human-character shown to be on Rokkenjima in this tale of 1986". Kanon was never a fully independent human.. question is, who is the 17th then? Maybe Kinzo...he did live at some point, even though not in 1986 - but he was portrayed as being alive for four episodes. "He is the 17th human(-character shown as "part of the human-side" in this story on Rokkenjima 1986), the head of the Ushiromiya household, portrayed as being alive but ultimately dead from the start." Not too sure about how to explain the 17th human though; even though Kinzo is a character based on a human it just opens up too many uncertainties.
When I brought that up I was suggesting Kanon was the 17th. Kinzo is out of the question.

Kanon and Shannon share Yasu's body. Only one exists in reality, and which one that is
can change. This is how they are both different people with their own individual human roles on the island, yet they only register as 1 person because they still cannot exist at the same time (except in fantasy).

Other people brought up Kinzo, and that's what people seemed to focus on (to my frustration). Red does not reflect fantasy, and Kinzo in 1986 is a fantasy. Done deal. Red doesn't count ghosts. That's the point of it. Kanon, on the other hand, is not always fantasy, but at times a real person, so he can count as the 17th person on the island.

I could understand rejecting Kanon as counting, but accepting Kinzo would make red conform to fantasy, which is exactly the opposite of its function. I would sooner abandon the whole train of thought altogether.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think both of you are kind of off...at least to my understanding.
Ordinal numbers do have a certain value, but they have to be read in the exact context they are given.

Out of the 5 people including Kyrie, he was the first to die. In other words this means that he is the 9th victim.
Nowhere does it say that 8 people DIED before him, just that he would be considered the 9th victim (in Japanese giseisha) of whatever is happening.
That the order of sacrifices and the order of the actual murders is not necessarily the same was already implied in EP2 through the sacrifices from 4th to 8th being Shannon-Gohda-George-Nanjo-Kumasawa, while the depicted order of deaths in the narrative was Nanjo-Kumasawa-Gohda-George-Shannon. It was then again highlighted in EP3 by Eva Beatrice jumbling sacrificial order and order of death of Kyrie-Rudolph-Hideyoshi around.
Why would we interpret the red this way? It would take all the "clue" aspect out of it and make it, depending on who you are, useless or even harmful. Beatrice wouldn't trick us here. Pinning down the actual sequence of events in Alliance is hard enough already.
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Old 2013-01-09, 12:47   Link #31596
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I'm not entirely convinced that Kanon-specific ep4 red has any actual value though. Kanon can't be victimized and his death is effectively meaningless anyway, so what purpose is there to knowing that he "died?" What are we supposed to take away from the fact that he was part of a select group, was the first of that group to "die," and that he is the 9th "victim?"

Even if we were to take it at face value, it gives us little to go on except that the 8 "victims" preceding him were not Kyrie or the people depicted with her. It doesn't tell us much about how they became victims or why or even when, since we have absolutely nothing to go on to tell us when Kanon would've "died," other than a fantasy scene. And that fantasy scene is really not too helpful either.
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Old 2013-01-09, 13:00   Link #31597
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Haven't been thinking much about Umineko in a long time, but thinking back about it, I now find it extremely hard to believe Yasu/Beatrice can be the culprit (within the games).
There simply is constantly hints that takes various forms that relates to the idea that "the one everyone believes is the culprit" cannot really be as such. Accepting that Yasu is the culprit isn't any different, ultimately, from accepting Eva as culprit in arc 3 and Natsuhi in arc 5 (or even Kinzo in arc 4 and "beatrice the 19th human" in arc 2).

Could start approaching it from various povs in various arcs, but I think arc 5 is clear enough that we don't really need the rest.
- We were shown that Natsuhi could (assuming her own scenes aren't necessarily reliable) have committed every single murders when we look about alibies.
- Just like Yasu, Natsuhi really was "up to something" and has plenty of stuff to hide, and it'd be quite easy to pass down a moral judgement on her.
- Just like Beatrice, Natsuhi seems to feel partially responsible for what's happening and has regrets about it.

Basically it's the formula to be blamed as culprit. A formula we've been constantly shown in a negative light.

Btw I'm not going to suggest another culprit, because this is essentially what I think has been our mistake in Umineko : We're not there to find a culprit, we're there to defend people who has been wrongfully accused.

Not saying the culprit isn't important or interesting to find btw. It might be all that interests many of you, but I'm just talking about what's been going on in the serie. It's always been about proving someone innocent. Defence lawyer is pretty much both Beatrice and Battler's job, in the end.

To me this is particularly interesting in the light that, if a witch or other fantasy being was actually responsible for everyone's death, we'd only be able to prove this by proving without a shadow of a doubt that everyone else is innocent. That would actually make Beatrice the heroine trying to find the "villain" while it would make Battler the one who is causing trouble to the investigation by trying to pin it to someone who is innocent out of mostly spite. Interesting mostly because, this is basically a proof that fantasy can require at least as much logical reasoning then mystery does, if not more.

Generally speaking too, a lot of things like all those talks about devil's proof ends up becoming much more important then as they stand right now under that approach too.

It also raises the question about ethics : what interests you the most - protecting the innocents or pursuing a culprit. At the very least, to me, this solves the problems everyone had about "Ryuukishi's messed up ethics".
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Old 2013-01-09, 13:11   Link #31598
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The difference is that Beatrice appears to be attempting to convict herself. As a result, and if she is indeed the author of the message bottles, it may well have been her intention to create a scenario in which she is in fact the culprit. Whether she was in fact any sort of "true" culprit in a hypothetical Prime is certainly something we've all debated over many times.

If your point is that there could be an "alternate solution" to the games themselves... well sure, I guess. The problem is that we'd both have to look for a "non-obvious culprit" (i.e. we cannot blame either Beatrice or Eva for ep3) and have some way of confirming the viability of that theory... which we kinda don't.
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Old 2013-01-09, 13:27   Link #31599
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Hey everyone, it's been quite a while since I last dropped by...Phew. Seems some people have been staying active. Pretty amazing, considering the time...

I've just started reading the manga, now with (at least) the Yasu-Shkanontrice solution in mind and paying attention to the hints that have been dropped in that regard (and mostly seem like plain punches in the face...)
Even though I still find Shkanon a crappy way out....some things are at least clicking into place and I guess I have somehow come to terms with it.

So anyhow, there are some questions and ideas popping up re-reading the whole thing in manga form.

Scenes showing Kinzou in EP1
Okay, I'm sure this has been discussed a milions times already (sorry...but then again: what hasn't? =D), but how are we supposed to interpret the (magic) scenes depicting Kinzou in this EP? So, obviously we know they're not real as he's a goddamn corpse (duh!). Krauss talking to him might simply be him pretending to so / lying about it. Might say the same for the opening scene of the Ep, when only Dr. Nanjo is talking to him. I'm not sure about this scene though...
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
Is this a hint we have to take that this might be Yasu (= "The Head") talking? The only people inside are obviously Shkanon-supporters, and I suppose we can assume the adults outside don't hear anything that's going on inside. Or are we supposed to ignore the scene entirely? After all, Genji isn't the servant that has been working longest for Yasu, is he?

The rose
It's rather a side note, I guess. I was wondering why the crippled rose was so important to Maria. Do we have to search for some deeper meaning here? Maria is getting SUSPICIOUSLY upset about not finding that rose, even for a mentally unstable 9-year-old, isn't she?
Are we supposed to find yet another relation to Yasu here or anything? "Crippled" possibly meaning the thing that automatically comes to mind thinking about the baby and the cliff and all? =P
Which might lead to the general question how much insight Maria really had into Yasu(ShannonKanonBeatrice). But then again I always find it difficult not to mix up Piece!Yasu/Shannon and Author!/Meta!(?)Yasu....

Furniture
Another take on the meaning of "furniture". I don't know whether a solid definition has been established yet, anyway, here goes haha.
This approach might definitely not be brandnew or anything, but reading the Ep1 Manga now, I get the feeling "furniture" could mean "stuck in their role, without much leeway do decide on their own".
This is now appearing to be a solid theory to me as it fits nicely with Shkannon as a basis.
Shannon is bound to be positive, she is basically "not allowed" to react in a hot-tempered or malicious way. She is also "bound to love" George, as that is exactly the role Yasu is assigning her.
Kanon on the other hand has to act shyly, mostly harboring and/or expressing negative feelings. He is "bound to love" Jessica, as he was in some way or other created for this purpose.

It is noticeable that Genji is the only other servant that is using the term, which might be a reference to Genji's total loyalty to the Head and his robotic behaviour: he is following orders from the head, without question. He is never actually seen to be acting on his own impulse (only excepting the Child-Cliff-incident which is not happening on the gameboard though).

Shannon is starting to defy the notion of her being furniture, most apparent by her outright defying the Beatrice persona (= love for George vs. love for Battler?). It's still noteworthy that even her fighting is consisting of defending rather than attacking, yet again referencing to her not being able to actually act offensively thus not breaking fully free from her assigned role.

I think this is not too farfetched if we take into account the plain meaning of "furniture" and how it is also a reference to how maids and butlers tend to be portrayed as in "classical" mystery stories.



I'm sorry for disrupting any ongoing argument and throwing in some rather random thoughts here. =) Thanks for bearing with me.
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Old 2013-01-09, 14:38   Link #31600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The difference is that Beatrice appears to be attempting to convict herself. As a result, and if she is indeed the author of the message bottles, it may well have been her intention to create a scenario in which she is in fact the culprit. Whether she was in fact any sort of "true" culprit in a hypothetical Prime is certainly something we've all debated over many times.
Prime, that may be exactly it.
We cannot figure out a prime culprit. We simply cannot. We don't even know what happened. We don't even know if there is a culprit. We cannot say for certain that Kinzo for instance was really dead in prime 1986.
This mystery "exists" but Umineko is not about solving it, and it wasn't made to be solvable. Sure that's an assumption on my part, but that's something I'm fairly certain about.
However you can reach the conclusion that Eva wasn't the culprit in prime. At the very least, accepting that she wasn't the culprit is something that the story leads us to. It's something Umineko is about.

It's not about finding the culprit, but about people's innocence.

Quote:
If your point is that there could be an "alternate solution" to the games themselves... well sure, I guess. The problem is that we'd both have to look for a "non-obvious culprit" (i.e. we cannot blame either Beatrice or Eva for ep3) and have some way of confirming the viability of that theory... which we kinda don't.
My point is that Umineko's not a game about finding the culprit. It's a game about doing pretty much what Battler did in arc 5 : Even tho everything was against her, Battler solely believed that Natsuhi had to be innocent, and he did everything he could to defend her.

I'm also more or less figuring out that this is what arc 7 TP was about : someone taking out the culprit and not revealing them and enduring the blame - not for that culprit they just took out, but to defend someone else - close to them and very innocent, and who probably wouldn't believe them anyway (who'd just accept that the sole survivor of Rokkenjima claims x person is the culprit while having no way of proving it...).

Finding a culprit would probably surface if I'm right and we could properly establish Yasu's "why dunnit". She doubtfully would have did all that to protect Gohda's reputation if he was the culprit or blame herself for it, for instance.
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