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Old 2013-01-30, 09:37   Link #31801
Drifloon
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Yasuko discusion stopped interesting me a while ago, but this EP8 news is very nice.

Quote:
Natsuhi's gun was never loaded and she didn't even realize it.
Huh, I've believed this for a long time but I never expected to get actual confirmation on it. Awesome. Was there any confirmation (or even just implication) regarding whether Natsuhi was an accomplice in that episode? I've always been kind of on the fence about that...

Quote:
Rudolf's comment about "being killed tonight" was confirmed to be about the reaction he expected to get from Kyrie after telling her about Battler's birth.
Didn't the VN EP8 basically confirm this anyway?

Quote:
Ushiromiya Natsuhi-sama

Let's settle which of us is most suitable to be the family head.
I shall be waiting in front of my portrait.
Wow, I never expected Ryukishi to actually tell us what was in that letter. That's amazing.

I've actually always been against the conclusion that the letter was addressed to Natsuhi specifically, because I figured the culprit would have no way of knowing whether she would be the first to notice and read it, but I guess I've been proved wrong on this one!
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Old 2013-01-30, 10:43   Link #31802
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Wow, I never expected Ryukishi to actually tell us what was in that letter. That's amazing.

I've actually always been against the conclusion that the letter was addressed to Natsuhi specifically, because I figured the culprit would have no way of knowing whether she would be the first to notice and read it, but I guess I've been proved wrong on this one!
This is actually one point where I wonder about whether that's a screw-up for exactly that reason. Even if we assume that the letter was maneuvered in such a way that Natsuhi was likely to find it first, how could it be known whether or not she'd read it on her own and immediately leave? What if she decided to share it or read it out loud? Also, when did that letter even get written? Does Beatrice carry stationery around?

It's a good thing she was taunting Natsuhi and not somebody of marginal intelligence like Eva or Kyrie. "I'll wait in the entrance hall" is practically code for "circle around from the other exit to the parlor and shoot me in the back of the head" for anyone with tactical sense. Not that this would've helped if the gun weren't loaded, though I imagine Kyrie would've checked that.
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Old 2013-01-30, 16:01   Link #31803
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After watching through EP4, I realized that they said that one of the bottles was found on the island, and the other was found at sea later by the fishermen.

Yet, EP1 ends with the bottle being found five years later.

I was a big proponent of Bottles = Episodes, but now this makes the ending to EP1 make no sense whatsoever.

However, it does imply pre-incident authorship if the bottle was already there.


I think someone made a joke about the contents of Natsuhi's letter when we were speculating about it earlier, mentioning the portrait specifically.

As far as the fact that Natsuhi's gun was never loaded... wow, that wasn't anything I've ever expected. And I thought the VNs did confirm what Rudolf's "I will be killed tonight." meant.
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Old 2013-01-30, 16:16   Link #31804
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
As far as the fact that Natsuhi's gun was never loaded... wow, that wasn't anything I've ever expected. And I thought the VNs did confirm what Rudolf's "I will be killed tonight." meant.
The gun not being loaded is easy to imagine in one of two scenarios:
  • Natsuhi is an accomplice. Beatrice gave her the gun to boost her authority and ability to control survivors, and to ensure she was fearless when threatening people (since she couldn't follow through, so no one was at risk). But of course she wasn't foolish enough to load it for her. This makes Natsuhi's final act seem like deliberate suicide though, as she'd know or at least suspect she's going to be killed.
  • Natsuhi is not an accomplice. We know Beatrice controls access to the guns. If she left guns in the study for appearances' sake, she probably would've been smart enough not to leave any ammo. Natsuhi found the gun but couldn't find ammunition for it, so she's bluffing the whole time. Thus her confrontation with Beatrice may have been intended to bluff her as well, unaware that Beatrice was the one who ensured there wasn't any ammo accessible.
EDIT: Or in the alternative, Natsuhi could have loaded the gun and deliberately chose not to. I suppose that's also possible.
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Old 2013-01-30, 16:25   Link #31805
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'd really like to think where you see this intended, considering that there's literally nothing connecting them except a lose name pun that applies to "Toya Hachijou."
I might just be misinterpreting everything, but here's how I see it.

EP1 and EP2 are retellings of the events (or alternate interpretations) by some author (PRESUMABLY Yasu). EP3-6 are supposedly forgeries by Hachijo Tohya. But what is the Meta-World, and how come EP2 and the forgeries share the same continuity?

EP2 is really an interesting case. It is the intersection between "message bottle" and "forgery". In other words, the themes of the entirety of Umineko and the Shannon/Kanon deal is directly addressed in EP2. I think that EP2 is actually a "forgery" directly based on the message bottle.
Think of it this way: if EP2's message bottle made any mention of Shannon and Kanon's love troubles (the beginning of EP2) then the 1998 characters would have a strong lead of Yasu as the culprit or would at least make special mention of them. Because this does not seem to be the case, I think EP2 is also a forgery in some sense. That is, EP2 is just a "story" built into the events of the second message bottle. EP1 is straight mystery, but since Beatrice/Battler make explicit mention of EP1's events in the later Episodes, maybe EP1 is a forgery too?

I personally imagine EP1-EP6 (maybe further?) as a series of forgeries by Hachijo Tohya. EP1-EP2 are based on the message bottles, whereas the rest are either based "the result" (Eva surviving in 1998) or are pure fabrications. THAT is why we are given a straight thematic continuity ("Yasu is the culprit because of the love duel").

Did Hachijo Tohya construct the Shkanontrice solution out of thin air? What is the purpose of such a random solution from an authorial position? (lolRyukishi aside)

I personally think that Ikuko "drove the Hachijo Tohya team to write with Shkanon as the solution because SHE HERSELF wanted Battler-Tohya to remember." This makes her a colossal asshole, but I personally find this to make sense with my interpretation of the visual novels.

Of course, the fundamental assumption behind all of this is that the meta-world is a part of the forgeries as a structure for continuity. The meta-world could ALSO be detached from the forgeries and could actually represent the interactions between various forces in 1998+ (that is, it is pure metaphor: Battler = Tohya, Beatrice = "Yasu" or possibly Ikuko, etc.)

I know this isn't terribly convincing, I don't think I did a good job describing it. But that's how I interpreted it. What is the consensus about the meta-world?
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Old 2013-01-30, 17:07   Link #31806
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Bought what's out so far of the EP8 manga. Just finished chapter 6, and here's a couple spoilers got from it for anyone who doesn't already know them. All these spoilers are about Legend.
You're awesome.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Natsuhi's gun was never loaded and she didn't even realize it. Tee-hee.
Oh, Natsuhi... you never had a chance... I wonder if the same applied to Rosa... though I think in Ep 3 Rudolf and Kyrie would have realized if the guns were loaded or not as they're painted like gun experts...


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The content of the final letter that lured Natsuhi into the hall:Pretty much what you'd expect, but, again, confirmation is nice.
So the letter existed. I remember there was a theory going on in the past saying it was possible the letter didn't exist... (I don't remember it well though)

It's nice to know it really existed.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This is actually one point where I wonder about whether that's a screw-up for exactly that reason. Even if we assume that the letter was maneuvered in such a way that Natsuhi was likely to find it first, how could it be known whether or not she'd read it on her own and immediately leave? What if she decided to share it or read it out loud? Also, when did that letter even get written? Does Beatrice carry stationery around?
Well, considering how prideful Natsuhi is and how protective she is of the children it's possible Yasu decided to bet on that. In Ep 1 she seems to like to bet, as when she bet George wouldn't look at Shannon's corpse in the sheed. Once Kanon is assumed to be dead he had all the time to go get the paper and write the letter.

Actually she might have done it even after she killed Nanjo and Co.

We know they went to check because they heard Maria singing... but we don't know if the phonecall came from that phone. It's possible the trick here is similar to the one used with Jessica. Once she left the room and closed it with her key she went to another phone put on a tape Maria's voice singing a song and then did the call. When Battler and Co reached the room and found Maria singing and the phone in such position they didn't suspect the call could have come from another room.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's a good thing she was taunting Natsuhi and not somebody of marginal intelligence like Eva or Kyrie. "I'll wait in the entrance hall" is practically code for "circle around from the other exit to the parlor and shoot me in the back of the head" for anyone with tactical sense. Not that this would've helped if the gun weren't loaded, though I imagine Kyrie would've checked that.
Natsuhi somehow looks like the easiest to trick in the group and, more often than not, her pride is her downfall.

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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I know this isn't terribly convincing, I don't think I did a good job describing it. But that's how I interpreted it. What is the consensus about the meta-world?
I don't think there's a consensus on the metaworld.

If I'm not wrong the best we all agree (I think) is that it is meaningful, it's probably some sort of psychological metaphor (though there are variations on how this applies so take this as some sort of very lose definition) and... what else?
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Old 2013-01-30, 17:09   Link #31807
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We don't actually know which stories were the message bottle stories. As far as I know, Ange never explicitly entitles them or describes their contents with specificity (that is, things like "one of the message bottles features a First Twilight where all the parents but Rosa are killed in the chapel and their bellies stuffed with candy," something presumably unique to Turn).

So it's possible both Legend and Turn aren't the message bottle stories... but they're sort of portrayed as being that, so...
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Old 2013-01-30, 17:12   Link #31808
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It's been a while since I've read the Episodes, but did the letter at the end of Episode 1 that was signed by "Maria Ushiromiya" actually accompany a message bottle story?
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Old 2013-01-30, 17:12   Link #31809
theacefrehley
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I might just be misinterpreting everything, but here's how I see it.

EP1 and EP2 are retellings of the events (or alternate interpretations) by some author (PRESUMABLY Yasu). EP3-6 are supposedly forgeries by Hachijo Tohya. But what is the Meta-World, and how come EP2 and the forgeries share the same continuity?

EP2 is really an interesting case. It is the intersection between "message bottle" and "forgery". In other words, the themes of the entirety of Umineko and the Shannon/Kanon deal is directly addressed in EP2. I think that EP2 is actually a "forgery" directly based on the message bottle.
Think of it this way: if EP2's message bottle made any mention of Shannon and Kanon's love troubles (the beginning of EP2) then the 1998 characters would have a strong lead of Yasu as the culprit or would at least make special mention of them. Because this does not seem to be the case, I think EP2 is also a forgery in some sense. That is, EP2 is just a "story" built into the events of the second message bottle. EP1 is straight mystery, but since Beatrice/Battler make explicit mention of EP1's events in the later Episodes, maybe EP1 is a forgery too?

I personally imagine EP1-EP6 (maybe further?) as a series of forgeries by Hachijo Tohya. EP1-EP2 are based on the message bottles, whereas the rest are either based "the result" (Eva surviving in 1998) or are pure fabrications. THAT is why we are given a straight thematic continuity ("Yasu is the culprit because of the love duel").

Did Hachijo Tohya construct the Shkanontrice solution out of thin air? What is the purpose of such a random solution from an authorial position? (lolRyukishi aside)

I personally think that Ikuko "drove the Hachijo Tohya team to write with Shkanon as the solution because SHE HERSELF wanted Battler-Tohya to remember." This makes her a colossal asshole, but I personally find this to make sense with my interpretation of the visual novels.

Of course, the fundamental assumption behind all of this is that the meta-world is a part of the forgeries as a structure for continuity. The meta-world could ALSO be detached from the forgeries and could actually represent the interactions between various forces in 1998+ (that is, it is pure metaphor: Battler = Tohya, Beatrice = "Yasu" or possibly Ikuko, etc.)

I know this isn't terribly convincing, I don't think I did a good job describing it. But that's how I interpreted it. What is the consensus about the meta-world?
If I remenber ep4 well, it is said that the bottles only cover the 2 days in rokkenjima.
The stuff that comes before is probably not included in the bottles
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Old 2013-01-30, 17:20   Link #31810
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Assuming we more or less agree that his moral obligation to Ange was the source of Touya's suffering, I'd be interested to hear what "ability" YasuKo might have to alleviate it.
It's clearly not the only reason Touya is suffering, by practically his own admission. There was a stranger inside his head threatening to take over his entire goddamn identity, but that only became a major conflict after he'd been Toya for many, many years. Yasuko could've stopped it from ever reaching this point.

Quote:
loosely in what way?
This part of my argument I admit isn't very strong due to fuzzy memory, but I BELIEVE the major name puns that get quoted around are how to read Toya Hachijou's name and pen name, which came up back in EP6? I remember people noticing another name pun at some point but I don't remember it, but DO remember finding it unconvincing. Does anyone know what I'm taking about?

Quote:
Think of it this way: if EP2's message bottle made any mention of Shannon and Kanon's love troubles (the beginning of EP2) then the 1998 characters would have a strong lead of Yasu as the culprit or would at least make special mention of them. Because this does not seem to be the case, I think EP2 is also a forgery in some sense. That is, EP2 is just a "story" built into the events of the second message bottle. EP1 is straight mystery, but since Beatrice/Battler make explicit mention of EP1's events in the later Episodes, maybe EP1 is a forgery too?
I'm not buying it. The Witch Hunters have consistently been characterized as overlooking critical information they dismissed as unimportant, and also don't seem to care about the heart of the mystery. If Erika represents the Witch Hunter Self-Insert Mary Sue as has been conjectured before, then they would dismiss any statements of love as being filler or romanticized fantasy.

I mean, shit, they don't even bother to look into the birth records of Shannon and Kanon. They clearly don't give a shit.

Quote:
Of course, the fundamental assumption behind all of this is that the meta-world is a part of the forgeries as a structure for continuity.
No. No. No. No. No.

This raises buckets of problems and doesn't give any answers. What does Meta-Ange mean and how come no one talks about her role in them? Why doesn't any Witch Hunter, ever, mention the Meta-narrative, or the implications it makes?

How come people still ask questions about things in the forgeries that the Meta-World literally spells out for us real-world readers?

Whatever the Meta-World is, I guarantee it's not part of the Forgeries. It falls apart before you even reach the EP6 meta-meta-meta narrative.

Quote:
I know this isn't terribly convincing, I don't think I did a good job describing it. But that's how I interpreted it. What is the consensus about the meta-world?
Can't the Meta-World just be it's own thing? It's a metafictional device, it doesn't NEED an explanation beyond the symbolic and structuralist. If you must give it an in-universe definition, I personally interpret it as an actual alternate plane of existence, because every other explanation fails to answer the questions their interpretations raise while undermining otherwise solid premises about itself and what the Meta-World is being connected to.
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Old 2013-01-30, 17:22   Link #31811
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Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
If I remenber ep4 well, it is said that the bottles only cover the 2 days in rokkenjima.
The stuff that comes before is probably not included in the bottles
If that's so, however, it means that we have absolutely no idea whether a scene is part of a Forgery/MBS or not. For example, it's not just a layer exclusion in this case, and elements of the pre-October 4th scenes recur in Turn, so it's not just a matter of saying "the scenes where Shannon and Kanon meet Beatrice and discuss love and junk can be excised."

You can't merely remove that part, because scenes like Kanon fighting for Jessica and so forth don't make a lot of sense with those bits removed yet are definitely part of the October 4th/5th narrative. So those parts would also have to be removed or changed... meaning that, well, how do we know which parts are added in and which parts were "originally" in the Forgery?
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Old 2013-01-30, 17:44   Link #31812
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I mean, it seems most likely that the Meta-World is its own thing, like the upper-most layer of the story (the closest to us and Ryukishi), and exists so there's an actual consistent STORYLINE. I'm just giving my explanation for the interpretation I gave earlier. I'm not asserting it as truth, just a possibility for fun.

I don't see how it's unreasonable that Hachijo Tohya could write stories about fictional 1998's. EP3 could be a forgery, EP3's 1998 is just a fictional extrapolation based around the "real 1998".
Furthermore, the META stuff in each of them is connected, but need not have any real basis in reality. The fictional meta stuff is a part of the series that Hachijo Tohya constructed as "the means to illustrate the literary or thematic parts of the story."

Though about Meta-Ange, well, you have a point. Maybe Ikuko and Tohya had an author-battle about what they wanted the story to be about? Ikuko wanted to focus on Yasu, Tohya wanted to focus around Ange's struggle, and all of Umineko is Hachijo Tohya fighting about what the purpose of the story is (joking)

Anyway, making Ikuko = Yasu just seems like something Ryukishi would do. Not that I'm really a fan of that idea.

edit: whoa, think I got lost in my own logic, nevermind >_>
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Old 2013-01-30, 17:59   Link #31813
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Kanon deciding he loves Jessica out of nowhere and sacrificing himself with no prior motivation? Sounds like fanfiction to me...


Quote:
Banquet is structured so that Yasu can kill Nanjo
So we are going with someone didn't kill Nanjo and then die (likely Kyrie)?



Also what is the Jessica room trick someone referred to?
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Old 2013-01-30, 18:05   Link #31814
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ALso I haven't thought about this theory at all yet, so it may fall apart, but maybe the metaworld is like the in-universe representation of general online theories and debate, as viewed by Touhya. Getting lost in the sea of meta could be him losing the belief that he actually knows what happened and just giving in to the general wash of theories. Angie did let herself get chewed apart after all.

Besides, the trial of Natsuhi always screamed trail be media, and meanwhile the only solid evidence Battler can argue with is "I just feel it isn't true". And we know how much this forum likes that argument.
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Old 2013-01-30, 18:05   Link #31815
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It is also possible that none of the message bottles, or maybe not even the forgeries, ever had any fantasy scenes inside them. There was this thing Beatrice said (paraphrased): "Slowly the barrier around Rokkenjima gets stronger and more and more demons will be able to enter.", or something of that kind. And then from EP6 on, the talk about a "reader" that can bring falsehoods into the storytelling.

I think what we see in the story is just the interpretation of someone from 1998+ (Yukari, Tohya, Ikuko or others). The "reader" may change at some points though and possibly add their own interpretation or even knowledge into the story (or perhaps there can be multiple readers at once, which explains the "chaotic" nature of EP8). And so while the first story (legend) from our perspective seems to be free of falsehood (which as we know now, isn't), the following stories are more and more magical fantasy stories, that seem to be out of place. (still remember your reaction from the first appearance of a deadly sin's stake at the end of EP1-TP or the first magic battle in EP2?) Perhaps it is just Tohya getting more and more "personally involved" as he recovers his memories, or Ikuko projects herself into Beatrices role more and more, or Yukari gets influenced by the witchhunters'/cultists' theories.

The "meta layers" would be just an extention of this, just with the addition that with higher layer, it becomes closer to reality.

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Kanon deciding he loves Jessica out of nowhere and sacrificing himself with no prior motivation? Sounds like fanfiction to me...
Yes. This and the "fantasy" scenes seem either like personal interpretation, which can be different for every person, or as you say just pure fanfiction, which is quite the opposite to the personal interpretation, as fanfiction is usually something that fans of a story wish for but think that it will never be done by the author.

Ironically if we go with StrangerKo, then the forgeries of Tohya and Ikuko are nothing more than fanfiction of the message bottles...
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Old 2013-01-30, 18:22   Link #31816
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EP2 is really an interesting case. It is the intersection between "message bottle" and "forgery". In other words, the themes of the entirety of Umineko and the Shannon/Kanon deal is directly addressed in EP2. I think that EP2 is actually a "forgery" directly based on the message bottle.
Think of it this way: if EP2's message bottle made any mention of Shannon and Kanon's love troubles (the beginning of EP2) then the 1998 characters would have a strong lead of Yasu as the culprit or would at least make special mention of them. Because this does not seem to be the case, I think EP2 is also a forgery in some sense. That is, EP2 is just a "story" built into the events of the second message bottle. EP1 is straight mystery, but since Beatrice/Battler make explicit mention of EP1's events in the later Episodes, maybe EP1 is a forgery too?
This is one of the elements that I see as a huge hint toward Yasuko.

Something that strongly differentiates EP1-2 from EP3+ is the way Meta-Battler interacts with the narrative. Starting in EP3, he witnesses everything that happens on the gameboard and argues with Beatrice about it as it happens, and Beatrice in turn directs the events on the board in response to his arguments. But EP1-2 are totally different from that.

In EP1, Meta-Battler doesn't exist until after the game board story is over, and there are no outright fantasy scenes until Beatrice reconstructs the second twilight with magical stakes during the tea party. In EP2, we do see fantasy scenes, but Meta-Battler apparently doesn't -- we don't hear a peep out of him even when demons and goat butlers start popping out of the woodwork, and later during the first twilight of EP3 he acts as if he's witnessing magic on the game board for the very first time. What we do get, though, is a scene of Beatrice at the very end saying to Battler that she's going to explain how she did everything using magic, and since she's standing next to a living Kinzo at the time, the scene can't be part of the original game board story.

Based on that, I think it's likely that the message bottles underlying EP1-2 don't actually contain any fantasy at all. Instead, Meta-Battler's behavior mirrors how Tohya is reading the text. For EP1, he read it through first and then talked to Ikuko about it. For EP2, she started a back-and-forth with him while he read through the original message bottle, then after he finished she presented him with an augmented version of the story with fantasy scenes. Then EP3 and onward were written with Tohya's active participation, and that's reflected in Meta-Battler's more active role.

Backstory scenes like Shannon's date with George or the culture festival actively clash with the presentation of the message bottles being excerpts from Maria's diary, but if they were tacked on later, we can resolve that inconsistency. But then, how could those scenes be written, if they didn't come from Yasu in 1986? From Tohya? Is it really likely that, with corpses scattered everywhere and the island about to explode, Yasu sat Battler down to tell him all about a random culture festival she went to with Jessica?

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You can't merely remove that part, because scenes like Kanon fighting for Jessica and so forth don't make a lot of sense with those bits removed yet are definitely part of the October 4th/5th narrative. So those parts would also have to be removed or changed... meaning that, well, how do we know which parts are added in and which parts were "originally" in the Forgery?
It may be impossible in principle to look at any scene and tell whether it was in the original or not. However, I think we can safely exclude scenes that Meta-Battler should have reacted to, but didn't. And by extension, anything that narratively depends on those scenes is probably also out.
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Old 2013-01-30, 18:37   Link #31817
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Backstory scenes like Shannon's date with George or the culture festival actively clash with the presentation of the message bottles being excerpts from Maria's diary, but if they were tacked on later, we can resolve that inconsistency.
When was it ever stated that the message bottles originate from Maria's diary? I thought the only thing the diary showed to us, is that "someones" writing in Maria's diary matches with the writing of the message bottle.
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Old 2013-01-30, 18:52   Link #31818
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When was it ever stated that the message bottles originate from Maria's diary? I thought the only thing the diary showed to us, is that "someones" writing in Maria's diary matches with the writing of the message bottle.
Well, I say "diary", but that may be leaping to conclusions. The EP1 endroll describes it as a "notebook fragment" and it's signed "Maria Ushiromiya". Regardless, if you're going to present a text as being authored by a nine-year-old girl, why would you turn around and fill it with information that girl couldn't possibly have?
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Old 2013-01-30, 18:53   Link #31819
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
It may be impossible in principle to look at any scene and tell whether it was in the original or not. However, I think we can safely exclude scenes that Meta-Battler should have reacted to, but didn't. And by extension, anything that narratively depends on those scenes is probably also out.
What of Kinzo? Essentially every Kinzo scene is magical. Which scenes involving him were there and which, if any, were added? Was the "Natsuhi's heart" scene in Legend or not? Were the scenes of Kinzo mourning Beatrice or not? Was the scene of him tossing his ring to Beatrice or not?
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Old 2013-01-30, 19:25   Link #31820
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
What of Kinzo? Essentially every Kinzo scene is magical. Which scenes involving him were there and which, if any, were added? Was the "Natsuhi's heart" scene in Legend or not? Were the scenes of Kinzo mourning Beatrice or not? Was the scene of him tossing his ring to Beatrice or not?
One thing going on in Legend is that there are lots of false scenes that Piece-Battler thinks happened because some witness that he trusts told him they happened. I think we might see them for the same reason we think we see Meta-Battler getting cornered in EP6, namely that the reader (Tohya/Meta-Battler in EP1 and Ange in EP6) is filling in the blanks based on the available info. That goes for at least a significant number of the Kinzo scenes.

On the other hand, Meta-Battler talks about Kanon's exciting death scene in the tea party, so there's at least one blatantly false, or at least metaphorical, scene that does seem to have been present in the original narrative. So, I'm not sure.
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