Character Discussion - C.C

[Var]

Originally Posted by Daniani

Then I am illogical . For me, Geass (same as lelouch'one) and geass mark of immortality are different. There is no proof that the a geass mark works in the same way as geass.

And I think you don't always have to pay a cost to gain something, even in real life.

Every action and benefit in life has a cost, be it time, money, or some abstract concept. Everything has a price. I'm not even equating these powers to normal Geass, I am saying, much as how the website for CG says it, that her memory loss was the price for losing immortality.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

When I read this, it made me wonder. We're talking about reoccurring themes that seem to flow through the show and specific characters have specific themes that seemed to be stapled to them.

What if C.C.'s theme is life? Clearly, she's been unable to die throughout the show, regardless of her feelings on the subject. What if now that she can die, she still doesn't. I think this theme can be looked at from your perspective and mine. You could look at the theme of life and say, "Life must be concluded with death, thus making one living." Or I could look at it and say, "Life is about living with the knowledge that the end will eventually come." Both of these views require mortality, obviously, but one implies that C.C.'s theme of life will end within the confines of the show while the other suggests that it will outlive the show. Hm, I think it all depends on how they want it to end. C.C. could stand as a symbol for hope at the very end, or she could show that all life ends and that's part of living.

Jeremiah's theme is life and loyalty. He is the epitome of living through only hope and determination. I do not see C.C.'s theme overlapping with his. C.C's theme has, for the most part, been about death and the hedgehog dilemma. Be it the use of her inability to die, or the death that has(is) occurred(ing) around her. You also have to note, that the lines you sighted, also speak of death as justifying or giving meaning to life. Lelouch's words to her at the end of the episode were about death, and her last words in the episode were about the dead. Either you have way too many coincidences, or her theme is not life.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Nobody can fault you for that, man. Everyone interprets things differently.

If only that were true...

Originally Posted by Esper 28

But I think this is a huge difference in how we perceive C.C. I've always considered C.C. to be on equal footing to Lelouch, not so much a mother figure. I've seen her as his partner and no, I do not mean that with any sort of romantic connotation. But seriously, I've looked at her as his partner in the sense that when things go tough, she was there to support him, but at the same time, he supported her. Granted, it did feel rather one-sided where C.C. was supporting Lelouch more so than he was supporting her, but that's why this new development is so key. It's giving Lelouch a chance to return the favor.

She was charged, by Marianne, to watch over her children. That's a guardian relationship at the very least, which one could argue developed into a motherly protection. The reason I do not agree with partners is because S2 through that out the window, she wasn't there to support him. Someone else took up that mantle every time.

I do not see this as a chance to return the favor, this is more a chance for C.C. to experience the life she's wanted, even if only for a short while. Lelouch will be riddled with guilt/regret when dealing with her now, I do not see that as returning the favor. Would C.C. have wanted love out of regret/pity?

Originally Posted by Esper 28

And I agree that lovers is unlikely with C.C.'s current state. You're right to say that she seems to have a child mentality now and that would make for a poor lover relationship. However, I think it's fair to say that while Lelouch may not be able to see her in a love relationship, children often develop crushes on those who protect them when they're not family related. Yes, a guardian-type relationship could develop, but they're not family and I don't think Lelouch would ever pretend that they are. Would you say it's possible for C.C. to develop a type of crush on Lelouch?

I have no problem with that, it is a possibility. It is simply, more likely than not, not what her fans are looking to get from her. Me personally? I don't mind the scenario, but it introduces problems once you factor in Kallen.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

I think that if it is a case where C.C. forms some sort of feelings for Lelouch, I wonder what kind of impact that will have if C.C. regains her memories. I'm assuming, of course, that if she gets her memories back, she also retains the new memories she builds with Lelouch.

If she regains her memories, then I think we'll have a conflict of interest, at which point I really would expect her to die.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Either way, I agree that there won't be a love relationship between the two of them with C.C. in the state she's in. At least, I don't think there'll be a mutual relationship. I still think it's possible for C.C. to develop feelings, while in her child mindset.

I agree that ChiChi may very well bond with Lelouch, but as it stands, I do not see Lelouch forming anything beyond a guardian bond (out of a sense of duty or owing). I, honestly, expect it to come out with only three people at Lelouch's side when all is said and done. ChiChi, Jeremiah, and Kallen.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

I can't really argue what you're saying here. It's sound logic, I think. If C.C. gets her memories back and remembers her time spent with Lelouch, then I think she could die with a sense of completion. In fact, I think this could tie into the next part...

Like I was saying, yeah, her dying could make for a happy ending. But living could also make for a happy ending. Going back with what I said earlier, if the series ends and she's still alive, she must have a sense of hope to go along with it. However, if she dies with a feeling of accomplishment, I think that would be just as good.

So, either she lives with hope or she dies with completion. I think those are two fair endings for the character, don't you?

Seems we've reached the end of this thought, as its been boiled down to two possibilities. I agree that they are both capable of occurring, but I am more inclined to believe that she will die.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

As a completely off topic mention... When you mentioned how you wanted a family ending, I couldn't help but think of them making a spin-off show where Lelouch and his harem was living in somewhere together and you get one of those romantic comedies where all the girls are vying for the main character's affection and stuff. Just the idea made me laugh. Those shows all have their obligatory hot spring scenes...oh man, so funny. But not funny in a "they should totally do this" way, funny is a "the person who suggests it should be shot" kind of way.

I'd lol.

Originally Posted by Stargaze

I'm inclined to believe that she is not that young, I feel she may have some exponential mental development. But no, I don't have any proof for that, just my intuition. I get what you're saying and I do agree. Whilst I do agree, something doesn't sit right...

As it stands and as its shown in the preview, I think she's at the age of 10 or less. I doubt it is more than that. What doesn't sit right with me is my gut feeling that her memories and powers will return, and that she planned this to experience a good life even if for only a moment.

Originally Posted by Stargaze

It is late, and this is hurting my brain I have to agree with you on this too.

Originally Posted by Stargaze

Yes, I do. As tragic as it may be, if one is happy, I believe it is a happy ending.

Well then, we agree.

[Daniani]

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Well, I hate to keep throwing out these old sayings, but, "Time is money." Seriously, though. To say that time is nothing, is silly, I think. You've only got a certain amount of time and when you do something that takes time, you're giving up that amount of time. Time for a human is finite, not infinite.

And those presents still cost the other person something, they weren't free. Also, if you look at it from your perspective, receiving the present puts you under some obligation to either give them a thank you card or, when the time comes, get them a present, or, at the very, very least, requires you to tell them thank you. If you choose not to do the above, you could very well cost yourself a friend that was kind enough to give you a present or you may never get yourself a present again. You see? Everything costs something, it all depends on how much importance you put on that thing.

In the case of the present, simply saying the words, "Thank you" may seem like nothing, but it's still costing you something.

I was talking about time in some situation, that's why I said "when you do nothing"

Here, I helped some people because they didn't know how to watch the episodes. I did something, so I lost something. I did that without expecting anything in return (yeah, people like me still exist). Some people made a reply, some didn't say anything. In some case, I didn't gain anything by doing that (I wasn't exepcting to gain something to begin with). And some people gained something from me and didn't reply to me, so they lost nothing. They had the choice.

In some situations, you have a limited number of choices.


And I know what you mean, I don't have a "princess life", so I already gave a lot of time and things. I'm not so naive you know...

[Var]

Originally Posted by Daniani

In some situations, you have a limited number of choices.

At which point, the cost becomes an opportunity cost. Basic economics is applicable to life, funnily enough.

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by Var

As it stands and as its shown in the preview, I think she's at the age of 10 or less. I doubt it is more than that. What doesn't sit right with me is my gut feeling that her memories and powers will return, and that she planned this to experience a good life even if for only a moment.

Now this would not surprise me. What would also not surprise me is if when she gets her memories and powers back, she'll sacrifice herself to kill Charles and thereby erase the existence of Geass. But maybe that's stretching a bit too far.

[Daniani]

Originally Posted by Var

At which point, the cost becomes an opportunity cost. Basic economics is applicable to life, funnily enough.

My point was that you have no choice when it comes to time. You can't stop the flow of time. Every second, you lose something. That's why I was talking of things whitout considering that. I know I'm wrong but that's my way of thinking about time. But in some situations, I didn't feel like I gained or lost something. (see my post above).

And you didn't reply about what I said of the geass mark

[Var]

Originally Posted by Tokkan

Now this would not surprise me. What would also not surprise me is if when she gets her memories and powers back, she'll sacrifice herself to kill Charles and thereby erase the existence of Geass. But maybe that's stretching a bit too far.

Esper brought up the point that C.C. has never done something without planning it out. Couple this with what Charles said, that the only way to defeat him was to have a power beyond Geass. Further, that Lelouch's objective (and I suppose to some degree C.C.'s) is to destroy Geass. Either Lelouch and Charles will kill one another, or C.C. and Charles will kill one another.

[Daniani]

Originally Posted by Var

Esper brought up the point that C.C. has never done something without planning it out. Couple this with what Charles said, that the only way to defeat him was to have a power beyond Geass. Further, that Lelouch's objective (and I suppose to some degree C.C.'s) is to destroy Geass. Either Lelouch and Charles will kill one another, or C.C. and Charles will kill one another.

Could work if there are only two immortals in this world. But who knows.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Daniani

Could work if there are only two immortals in this world. But who knows.

Possible but I see two problems: Lelouch watching Nunally die will kill him inside. The power is left to exist which means that the possibility for it corrupting the world will remain.

[Esper 28]

Originally Posted by Var

Jeremiah's theme is life and loyalty. He is the epitome of living through only hope and determination. I do not see C.C.'s theme overlapping with his. C.C's theme has, for the most part, been about death and the hedgehog dilemma. Be it the use of her inability to die, or the death that has(is) occurred(ing) around her. You also have to note, that the lines you sighted, also speak of death as justifying or giving meaning to life. Lelouch's words to her at the end of the episode were about death, and her last words in the episode were about the dead. Either you have way too many coincidences, or her theme is not life.

Well, I think Jeremiah and C.C. are two different entities and their themes are meant to be kept separate.

Don't get me wrong, death is a theme that is associated with C.C., but I think that life is as well. In truth, I think life and death go hand-in-hand. And yeah, I mentioned that death is the justification for living, similar to how C.C. said that living without death is just an experience, or something along those lines. You need death in order to live, otherwise, it's not living. But the fact that C.C. hasn't died, means that life is part of her theme.

Like I had said, C.C. could easily turn out to be representative of hope. She yearned for death, but all she got is life. Now she's mortal and death is closer than ever, but what if she finds a reason to live? What if she has hope for a bright future? Death would no longer become a fixation, but a fear. If that were the case, those "coincidences" aren't coincidences, but a way to show how death is there, ever present. For a mortal being, death is always there and only a mortal can be aware of it.

Of course, this relies on hope. If you've got nothing to live for, then there is no reason to fear death. I feel like I'm kind of talking circles here, but I'm trying to convey a very hard concept.

Also, I think we're forgetting an important fact. She's got the mentality of a child and it was made clear in the episode that the young C.C. feared death. If you fear death, then you must want to live. And that's why life and death are one in the same theme. You can't have one without the other 'cause you can't die without living and you can't live without dying.

I hope I made sense, 'cause I sure feel like I didn't.

Originally Posted by Var

She was charged, by Marianne, to watch over her children. That's a guardian relationship at the very least, which one could argue developed into a motherly protection. The reason I do not agree with partners is because S2 through that out the window, she wasn't there to support him. Someone else took up that mantle every time.

I do not see this as a chance to return the favor, this is more a chance for C.C. to experience the life she's wanted, even if only for a short while. Lelouch will be riddled with guilt/regret when dealing with her now, I do not see that as returning the favor. Would C.C. have wanted love out of regret/pity?

Lelouch's relationship with others besides C.C. took center stage in R2, but that doesn't negate their already established partnership.

What does Lelouch have to feel guilt or regret about? I think he already loves C.C. in one way or another and none of it stems from pity.

Originally Posted by Var

I have no problem with that, it is a possibility. It is simply, more likely than not, not what her fans are looking to get from her. Me personally? I don't mind the scenario, but it introduces problems once you factor in Kallen.

Well, I'm not a die hard fan of anyone except for Cornelia. So, I suppose I can suggest things that the atypical C.C. fan won't. And yeah, I think that may be what they're going for. It seems that the Kallen/Lelouch/C.C. triangle nonsense is a hot topic amongst fans, they may be trying to play off that.

[

Originally Posted by Var

I agree that ChiChi may very well bond with Lelouch, but as it stands, I do not see Lelouch forming anything beyond a guardian bond (out of a sense of duty or owing). I, honestly, expect it to come out with only three people at Lelouch's side when all is said and done. ChiChi, Jeremiah, and Kallen.

So you don't think Lelouch would act as a guardian simply because he cared for her and wanted to protect her?

Originally Posted by Var

Seems we've reached the end of this thought, as its been boiled down to two possibilities. I agree that they are both capable of occurring, but I am more inclined to believe that she will die.

At least our thoughts aren't that far away from another. We've got a different ending, but the road to that ending isn't really all that different.

[Esper 28]

Originally Posted by Daniani

I was talking about time in some situation, that's why I said "when you do nothing"

Here, I helped some people because they didn't know how to watch the episodes. I did something, so I lost something. I did that without expecting anything in return (yeah, people like me still exist). Some people made a reply, some didn't say anything. In some case, I didn't gain anything by doing that (I wasn't exepcting to gain something to begin with). And some people gained something from me and didn't reply to me, so they lost nothing. They had the choice.

In some situations, you have a limited number of choices.


And I know what you mean, I don't have a "princess life", so I already gave a lot of time and things. I'm not so naive you know...

I'm sorry! I never meant to imply you were had a "princess life"!

And, you know, all I can say is that I admire your line of thinking. I mean, look at Superman. Superman does good things just to do good things. He lives by the Golden Rule, "treat others as you would like to be treated."

While I don't think that it's practical, I can say that anyone who thinks like Superman should be commended for thinking that way. In truth, the world needs more people like that.

And for the record, I'm not a bad person! I shared the information you gave me with as many people as I could. I think it's important to just do something nice once in awhile.

[Daniani]

Originally Posted by Var

Possible but I see two problems: Lelouch watching Nunally die will kill him inside. The power is left to exist which means that the possibility for it corrupting the world will remain.

What I want to say now is "Is there a possibility that lelouch will destroy the geass thing definitely before the end of the show?"

I mean, the only way I see to do that is to kill the two immortals (how? I don't know).

Originally Posted by Esper 28

I'm sorry! I never meant to imply you were had a "princess life"!

And, you know, all I can say is that I admire your line of thinking. I mean, look at Superman. Superman does good things just to do good things. He lives by the Golden Rule, "treat others as you would like to be treated."

While I don't think that it's practical, I can say that anyone who thinks like Superman should be commended for thinking that way. In truth, the world needs more people like that.

And for the record, I'm not a bad person! I shared the information you gave me with as many people as I could. I think it's important to just do something nice once in awhile.

I know, don't worry But I wanted to explain that I am not an "idealist". In the past I even said that "the world is wrong", "many people are wrong" and some other pessimistic lines about Humans

Yes, maybe, but even if many people don't act like superman, that doesn't mean they are not good people in many other ways.

You know what? I forgot that I pmed you =( My memory skills are so so...

I don't mind if people don't reply to me, I consider that it costs nothing to do a PM (it cost Time but I don't care about it at the moment ) and that doesn't mean they aren't good people. (maybe they area bit shy at least xD ) Don't worry

[Var]

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Well, I think Jeremiah and C.C. are two different entities and their themes are meant to be kept separate.

They should, as should their themes. Because, as I see it, everything you attribute to C.C. belongs more with Jeremiah. Jeremiah is life and death constantly fighting over a person who has the desire, the hope, to live and fulfill his duty. He is the embodiment of hope and the desire to make life worth being lived.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Don't get me wrong, death is a theme that is associated with C.C., but I think that life is as well. In truth, I think life and death go hand-in-hand. And yeah, I mentioned that death is the justification for living, similar to how C.C. said that living without death is just an experience, or something along those lines. You need death in order to live, otherwise, it's not living. But the fact that C.C. hasn't died, means that life is part of her theme.

I think this is a point we agree on, but also disagree on. She is a representation of life and death, yes, but she is the opposite of Jeremiah's, in that she is life seeking death, where Jeremiah was life seeking life.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Like I had said, C.C. could easily turn out to be representative of hope. She yearned for death, but all she got is life. Now she's mortal and death is closer than ever, but what if she finds a reason to live? What if she has hope for a bright future? Death would no longer become a fixation, but a fear. If that were the case, those "coincidences" aren't coincidences, but a way to show how death is there, ever present. For a mortal being, death is always there and only a mortal can be aware of it.

I disagree, one who yearns or yearned for death should not be the symbol of hope, when someone who yearns for life through everything is already present. Jeremiah is the symbol of hope, of living through hell, hence why he, as a mortal, has survived everything. So it seems redundant to have C.C. and Jeremiah both represent the same thing, for C.C. it is that death does not come when she wants it. For Jeremiah death comes when he does not want it.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Of course, this relies on hope. If you've got nothing to live for, then there is no reason to fear death. I feel like I'm kind of talking circles here, but I'm trying to convey a very hard concept.

The problem isn't so much talking in circles, which to a degree you are, but you are diminishing Jeremiah's role and bolstering C.C. to be too positive, imho. This change, in one way or another, will not end completely happily. Someone will have to take on the mantle to defeat Charles and die with him and that power.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Also, I think we're forgetting an important fact. She's got the mentality of a child and it was made clear in the episode that the young C.C. feared death. If you fear death, then you must want to live. And that's why life and death are one in the same theme. You can't have one without the other 'cause you can't die without living and you can't live without dying.

I hope I made sense, 'cause I sure feel like I didn't.

As I said, this C.C. wants to live, but C.C. theme is death and life. We've gone full circle and now, when she can die, the chance of her dieing has gone up if not for anything other than her theme.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Lelouch's relationship with others besides C.C. took center stage in R2, but that doesn't negate their already established partnership.

Does not change the fact that without Kallen and Shirley, C.C.'s contract would have failed. None of this would have happened, simply.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

What does Lelouch have to feel guilt or regret about? I think he already loves C.C. in one way or another and none of it stems from pity.

Not so much pity but obligation, he promised to make her smile and so he has a duty to complete that promise. Guilt and regret come in him being too late to show it to the real C.C., now he has to make this new person happy.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

So you don't think Lelouch would act as a guardian simply because he cared for her and wanted to protect her?

I think he would, but this is partly out of an obligation to fulfill his promise. I am not trying to diminish it, but it won't be what everyone wants, most likely.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

At least our thoughts aren't that far away from another. We've got a different ending, but the road to that ending isn't really all that different.

We'll reach a resolution at some point.

[Esper 28]

Originally Posted by Daniani

I know, don't worry But I wanted to explain that I am not an "idealist". In the past I even said that "the world is wrong", "many people are wrong" and some other pessimistic lines about Humans

Yes, maybe, but even if many people don't act like superman, that doesn't mean they are not good people in many other ways.

You know what? I forgot that I pmed you =( My memory skills are so so...

I don't mind if people don't reply to me, I consider that it costs nothing to do a PM (it cost Time but I don't care about it at the moment ) and that doesn't mean they aren't good people. (maybe they area bit shy at least xD ) Don't worry

I replied to you! And there's nothing wrong being idealistic really, not to say that you are. Still, it's good for people to do things without expecting anything in return.

Originally Posted by Var

They should, as should their themes. Because, as I see it, everything you attribute to C.C. belongs more with Jeremiah. Jeremiah is life and death constantly fighting over a person who has the desire, the hope, to live and fulfill his duty. He is the embodiment of hope and the desire to make life worth being lived.

I don't mean to admonish Jeremiah, but I really question the way you're seeing him. Honestly, I think you're putting too much importance on Jeremiah as a character. In my opinion, he's more of a...more of a ghost that can't rest until he's achieved what he wanted. You know, like that famous ghost that stands on the cliff waiting for her husband to return from sea. He can't "go away" until he fulfills his obligation to Marianne, until he feels he's proven himself.

I don't see Jeremiah as a symbol of hope in the slightest. What does he hope for? To live? No, Jeremiah doesn't hope to live, Jeremiah insists on living. If anything, I think he represents perseverance.

Originally Posted by Var

I think this is a point we agree on, but also disagree on. She is a representation of life and death, yes, but she is the opposite of Jeremiah's, in that she is life seeking death, where Jeremiah was life (Did you mean death seeking life?) seeking life.

*Acknowledges Var's typo*

I understand where you're coming from. Going back to the ghost who haunts the cliff waiting for her husband. She kind of seeks life so that she can be there for when her husband returns and Jeremiah is the same way. He seeks to live in order to continue to be loyal, but that's a far cry from C.C. I don't think Jeremiah is about his wanting to live as much as he is about loyalty.

All he talks about his loyalty. He told V.V. that the Siegfried was his to carry out his loyalty and when he looks over Bartley, all he can seem to muster up about the man was that he was loyal.

Jeremiah is all about camitatus, which is a heavy theme in the Arthurian legends.

Originally Posted by Var

I disagree, one who yearns or yearned for death should not be the symbol of hope, when someone who yearns for life through everything is already present. Jeremiah is the symbol of hope, of living through hell, hence why he, as a mortal, has survived everything. So it seems redundant to have C.C. and Jeremiah both represent the same thing, for C.C. it is that death does not come when she wants it. For Jeremiah death comes when he does not want it.

Clearly, we disagree on Jeremiah. So, I mean, I could sit here and argue that there is no character that embodies hope pertaining to life, but I don't think that's necessary.

Originally Posted by Var

The problem isn't so much talking in circles, which to a degree you are, but you are diminishing Jeremiah's role and bolstering C.C. to be too positive, imho. This change, in one way or another, will not end completely happily. Someone will have to take on the mantle to defeat Charles and die with him and that power.

Personally, I don't feel Jeremiah is a factor in this discussion. I also believe that C.C. should be cast into a positive light, especially after her "mental reboot". But I agree, that there will not be a completely happy ending and that Charles must be stopped.

Originally Posted by Var

As I said, this C.C. wants to live, but C.C. theme is death and life. We've gone full circle and now, when she can die, the chance of her dieing has gone up if not for anything other than her theme.

The chance of her dying has gone up purely because she's mortal now. I think the circle doesn't need to be closed within the confines of the series. Of course, I'm also of the belief that C.C. could turn into that symbol of hope that I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by Var

Does not change the fact that without Kallen and Shirley, C.C.'s contract would have failed. None of this would have happened, simply.

Regardless, they do not negate the partnership between C.C. and Lelouch.

Originally Posted by Var

Not so much pity but obligation, he promised to make her smile and so he has a duty to complete that promise. Guilt and regret come in him being too late to show it to the real C.C., now he has to make this new person happy.

You make it sound like Lelouch made that promise without thinking, as though he made it and now he's stuck fulfilling it. He wouldn't have said it unless he was inclined to feel that way. A promise doesn't necessarily mean a ball and chain.

Originally Posted by Var

I think he would, but this is partly out of an obligation to fulfill his promise. I am not trying to diminish it, but it won't be what everyone wants, most likely.

Being obligated implies that he doesn't actually want to fulfill his promise. I just think that obligation may be the wrong choice of word. And who do you mean when you say "everyone"? The fans or the characters in the show? I say screw the fanbase.

Originally Posted by Var

We'll reach a resolution at some point.

I've no doubt that we'll come to an understanding. Neither of us are that pig-headed. Or...are you?!?!?! Heheheh, seriously, though. I was browsing the Spoilers/Speculations thread and then I read the tags on the bottom. I tried to remove them, but I can't. Poor Var...

[Var]

Due to our lack of ability to agree on Jeremiah, I will (while humoring your points out of sheer respect of believing that every point deserves a reply) offer you counters in a different method.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

I replied to you! And there's nothing wrong being idealistic really, not to say that you are. Still, it's good for people to do things without expecting anything in return.

Causality disagrees.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

I don't mean to admonish Jeremiah, but I really question the way you're seeing him. Honestly, I think you're putting too much importance on Jeremiah as a character. In my opinion, he's more of a...more of a ghost that can't rest until he's achieved what he wanted. You know, like that famous ghost that stands on the cliff waiting for her husband to return from sea. He can't "go away" until he fulfills his obligation to Marianne, until he feels he's proven himself.

I cannot agree with your metaphor, as the ghost waiting is doing nothing but lingering and waiting. Jeremiah is acting, through his own will even afters it had been toyed with. If he were just a recurring thought that never disappeared, then yes, he'd be like the ghost. But he is changing his own destiny by his own decisions. His obligation to Marianne may be completed at some point, but that does not mean he will simply disappear as per the ghost. He has his own ambitions, remember, his goal was/is to be the Knight of One.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

I don't see Jeremiah as a symbol of hope in the slightest. What does he hope for? To live? No, Jeremiah doesn't hope to live, Jeremiah insists on living. If anything, I think he represents perseverance.

I think we need to list out the important characters and what they stand for, that way, we'd likely reach a better understanding of each others' interpretations.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

*Acknowledges Var's typo*

Ya... >.>

Originally Posted by Esper 28

I understand where you're coming from. Going back to the ghost who haunts the cliff waiting for her husband. She kind of seeks life so that she can be there for when her husband returns and Jeremiah is the same way. He seeks to live in order to continue to be loyal, but that's a far cry from C.C. I don't think Jeremiah is about his wanting to live as much as he is about loyalty.

Jeremiah seeks to live for himself as well, his loyalty is a part of himself. He is not living only for the name of someone or in waiting for someone, he is living to make his own ambitions into reality. Supporting Marianne, someone he idolized, is him following in her footsteps. He is trying to follow through on his own path that death keeps skewing. If he wanted to simply follow through loyalty he'd have died long ago, and he'd never have come to question Lelouch. He is still alive, he is still trying to live. If he wasn't, he'd not be questioning why people do what they do. Moving on.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

All he talks about his loyalty. He told V.V. that the Siegfried was his to carry out his loyalty and when he looks over Bartley, all he can seem to muster up about the man was that he was loyal.

He mustered that he greatly respected the man for his loyalty, even though he turned him into a monstrosity. Jeremiah knows he's no longer human, but he doesn't let rage cloud his judgment. That was Jeremiah in S1's conclusion, a machine fixated on carrying out duty.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Jeremiah is all about camitatus, which is a heavy theme in the Arthurian legends.

Maybe, I don't quite agree with simplifying him to just duty. He is able to make his own decisions and question why people do what they do, if he was all about duty then he'd never ask.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Clearly, we disagree on Jeremiah. So, I mean, I could sit here and argue that there is no character that embodies hope pertaining to life, but I don't think that's necessary.

True, heh. I'd say Nunally is the only character that embodies hope.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Personally, I don't feel Jeremiah is a factor in this discussion. I also believe that C.C. should be cast into a positive light, especially after her "mental reboot". But I agree, that there will not be a completely happy ending and that Charles must be stopped.

I don't see why C.C. has to be cast in a positive light. She's getting everything she wanted, where everyone else has been losing everything they've ever wanted. I'm not talking about balance, but it is silly to cast things so positively when the show itself is not that positive, if at all. But, I agree, someone will die with Charles, or we're going to get an ending that will make me slap myself.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

The chance of her dying has gone up purely because she's mortal now. I think the circle doesn't need to be closed within the confines of the series. Of course, I'm also of the belief that C.C. could turn into that symbol of hope that I'm talking about.

Mortality is a silly reason to say that someone's chance of dying has gone up, mortality simply equalizes everyone. I cannot agree with the symbol of hope. It doesn't matter if her desires had been skewed by time and memories, but she was a figure that sought death. Even if she's changed her mind, that karma (as this show is so in love with that word) is going to come back to her. Her memories are still floating in ambiguity, a power is unaccounted for, and she's a calculating woman. I have no doubt that she'll receive happiness, but I do not see her becoming some symbol of hope. More like a symbol of fulfillment. That her role will not be to give life hope, but that it will give hope life. A sort of reversal.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Regardless, they do not negate the partnership between C.C. and Lelouch.

They lessen it.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

You make it sound like Lelouch made that promise without thinking, as though he made it and now he's stuck fulfilling it. He wouldn't have said it unless he was inclined to feel that way. A promise doesn't necessarily mean a ball and chain.

No, I am saying that, his promise, now that C.C. is gone, has become a tie to someone that is not C.C.. He will take care of her because of his promise to C.C., it is his obligation but he is not fulfilling his promise to C.C. as it stands. C.C. is, like every other girl in his life, gone.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

Being obligated implies that he doesn't actually want to fulfill his promise. I just think that obligation may be the wrong choice of word. And who do you mean when you say "everyone"? The fans or the characters in the show? I say screw the fanbase.

Not that he doesn't want to, but that he can't. He cannot fulfill his promise to C.C. while C.C. is gone. Everyone = fans.

Originally Posted by Esper 28

I've no doubt that we'll come to an understanding. Neither of us are that pig-headed. Or...are you?!?!?! Heheheh, seriously, though. I was browsing the Spoilers/Speculations thread and then I read the tags on the bottom. I tried to remove them, but I can't. Poor Var...

Tags made me laugh, though I don't quite understand the helicopter one.

[Esper 28]

Originally Posted by Var

Due to our lack of ability to agree on Jeremiah, I will (while humoring your points out of sheer respect of believing that every point deserves a reply) offer you counters in a different method.

Oomph. Don't just humor me, that's kind of belittling. I don't think you meant it that way, though. Or, I mean, I hope you didn't.

Originally Posted by Var

I cannot agree with your metaphor, as the ghost waiting is doing nothing but lingering and waiting. Jeremiah is acting, through his own will even afters it had been toyed with. If he were just a recurring thought that never disappeared, then yes, he'd be like the ghost. But he is changing his own destiny by his own decisions. His obligation to Marianne may be completed at some point, but that does not mean he will simply disappear as per the ghost. He has his own ambitions, remember, his goal was/is to be the Knight of One.

Jeremiah is acting in the name of Marianne and his loyalty to her. I think that is equatable to the ghost waiting in the name of her husband. I think you took the concept of the ghost a little too literally. I didn't use a ghost metaphor because I was trying to imply that Jeremiah doesn't have an impact on anything. I chose it because of a ghost's persistence, which was being tied in to your remarks about Jeremiah wanting to live. I agree with you that Jeremiah is making an impact.

I also find it strange that if he aspires to be the Knight of One that he follows Lelouch, which has to seem to the characters in the show to be a one way ticket onto Britannia's "shit list". It would seem to me that Jeremiah let his loyalty with Marianne supersede his own ambitions, which is tied into the theme of camitatus that I feel Jeremiah embodies.

Originally Posted by Var

I think we need to list out the important characters and what they stand for, that way, we'd likely reach a better understanding of each others' interpretations.

Yeah, we could do that. Or we could totally say we did and not. But you're right, if we knew how we perceived each character, it would make placing each character a lot easier and we would have a much better understanding of what the other is thinking.

Or...we could just wait until our Newtype abilities awaken and then we'll have a total understanding without all the thinking. We need more Gundam jokes around here, I say.

Originally Posted by Var

Jeremiah seeks to live for himself as well, his loyalty is a part of himself. He is not living only for the name of someone or in waiting for someone, he is living to make his own ambitions into reality. Supporting Marianne, someone he idolized, is him following in her footsteps. He is trying to follow through on his own path that death keeps skewing. If he wanted to simply follow through loyalty he'd have died long ago, and he'd never have come to question Lelouch. He is still alive, he is still trying to live. If he wasn't, he'd not be questioning why people do what they do. Moving on.

I disagree. Jeremiah kept coming back because that was his duty to keep fighting until he can't. His loyalty never permitted him to die, as that would be seen by him as giving up. He's loyal to Marianne and once he failed her, he passed that loyalty to Britannia in the hopes that he'll find redemption for his failure, but now he's found a way to continue that loyalty with Lelouch. Nothing about him what he's done indicates his own personal ambition, it shows the exact opposite. That he fights for everyone except himself.

Camitatus/loyalty is in direct conflict with personal ambition. That's what loyalty means, that you put those you are loyal to before yourself. In other words, you can't always be loyal while at the same time, follow your own ambition. Unless, of course, being loyal is your only goal.

Originally Posted by Var

He mustered that he greatly respected the man for his loyalty, even though he turned him into a monstrosity. Jeremiah knows he's no longer human, but he doesn't let rage cloud his judgment. That was Jeremiah in S1's conclusion, a machine fixated on carrying out duty.

Again, loyalty being the key ingredient. He respected Bartley for being loyal, which seems to be the characteristic he puts the most emphasis on. At the end of season 1, he was a machine fixed on carry out his duty while, at the same time, being filled with rage. Now he's a machine fixated on carrying out his duty, but he's got a level head.

As a side note, out of respect for Jeremiah, I think he should be referred to as a cyborg or android, because he can make his own decisions and he has his own feelings. Though I don't know if he dreams of electric sheep...

Originally Posted by Var

Maybe, I don't quite agree with simplifying him to just duty. He is able to make his own decisions and question why people do what they do, if he was all about duty then he'd never ask.

I don't think I'm understanding why you keep suggesting that he questions why people do things. It seems very clear to me that he follows Lelouch because he's Marianne's son, not because what he's doing it right or wrong. He failed Marianne and now Lelouch is his second chance.

Originally Posted by Var

True, heh. I'd say Nunally is the only character that embodies hope.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned hope pertaining to life 'cause Nunnally totally embodies hope in general.

Originally Posted by Var

I don't see why C.C. has to be cast in a positive light. She's getting everything she wanted, where everyone else has been losing everything they've ever wanted. I'm not talking about balance, but it is silly to cast things so positively when the show itself is not that positive, if at all. But, I agree, someone will die with Charles, or we're going to get an ending that will make me slap myself.

I never said she has to be cast in a positive light. I said she should. I don't see why she has to be cast in a negative light. Clearly, she could be cast into a positive light and made out to be, as I've said before, a symbol of hope.

Originally Posted by Var

Mortality is a silly reason to say that someone's chance of dying has gone up, mortality simply equalizes everyone. I cannot agree with the symbol of hope. It doesn't matter if her desires had been skewed by time and memories, but she was a figure that sought death. Even if she's changed her mind, that karma (as this show is so in love with that word) is going to come back to her. Her memories are still floating in ambiguity, a power is unaccounted for, and she's a calculating woman. I have no doubt that she'll receive happiness, but I do not see her becoming some symbol of hope. More like a symbol of fulfillment. That her role will not be to give life hope, but that it will give hope life. A sort of reversal.

It's silly to say a character that was previously immortal now has a higher rate of dying because she, uhm, can actually die? Var, dude, that doesn't make sense. Of course she has a higher chance of dying 'cause she actually can now.

And if you want to apply karma to C.C., why would it be negative karma? She has, essentially, been a prisoner of the Geass. She's been suffering for years and years. If anything, she should be getting some good karma.

The reversal you speak of is an interesting idea, but I don't know. If she doesn't die and goes on to live after the show, it's impossible for you to deny that she would symbolize the hope of living. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the reversal, but you're suggesting that her death would inspire hope? In a sense, that's kind of the same thing, except when she inspires hope, I can only assume she would inspire characters within the show, mainly Lelouch, to have hope. Or, I guess, if you look at it from an analytical perspective, giving us hope that our lives will be fulfilling. Either way, the two concepts we're discussing here don't seem that far apart from one another.

Originally Posted by Var

They lessen it.

To lessen, is not to negate.

Originally Posted by Var

No, I am saying that, his promise, now that C.C. is gone, has become a tie to someone that is not C.C.. He will take care of her because of his promise to C.C., it is his obligation but he is not fulfilling his promise to C.C. as it stands. C.C. is, like every other girl in his life, gone.

This is tough 'cause I want to agree with you, but at the same time, I want to disagree. I mean, it's still C.C. that he's dealing with and I truly believe that he will continue to perceive her as C.C., it's undeniable that her personality is shattered.

I really want to equate how Lelouch will protect C.C. with the way a husband or a brother stands by the bed of a victim of a car crash. If wife/sister is in a coma or has brain damage, it doesn't make them any less their wife/sister and that means you still take care of them because you love them. You don't take care of them because you feel you have to, you do it 'cause you love them. That's how I see Lelouch taking care of C.C. now. She may have brain damage, but she's still C.C. and he still loves her, so he'll do everything in his power to help her.

Originally Posted by Var

TNot that he doesn't want to, but that he can't. He cannot fulfill his promise to C.C. while C.C. is gone. Everyone = fans.

I think I kind of answered this part with what I said above. But I think I want to add... screw the fans! Yeah! They suck! Seriously.

Originally Posted by Var

TTags made me laugh, though I don't quite understand the helicopter one.

Neither did I.

[kk2extreme]

they could do a tsubasa chronicle scenario with cc, with lulu working hard to support and rebuild cc's personality.

[Bennyswan]

^
That would be nice =D or he somehow triggers her memory back.

[Kovensky]

What's tsr?

[kk2extreme]

Originally Posted by Kovensky

What's tsr?

sry, typo

[faheezy]

ohnoez newbie alert.

I thought at the end of this episode, Lulu came to the realization about the exact wish that CC wanted and that that was to be truly loved. As he grabbed her hand and pleaded with her, I truly felt he had made "the connection of true love" with her and that's why she's back to her ditsy childish self, the image of herself if she were not a geass holder. The image that was probably cast away in her memory.

Only because I shipp CC/Lulu and CC needs to be alive for that ship... I thought that if Lulu fulfilled her wish of true love then she would become mortal.