Muv-Luv Franchise - Game & General Discussion

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Von Himmel

Spoiler:

Were you talking about Takeru after his last battle in alternative? Does humanity finally managed to get rid of Beta?

Spoiler for MLA:

Yup, Takeru and Yoko. Without them, Alternative 4 was screwed.

It was implied that they had finally reached that point, so i'm taking the positive view that it was the last hive they were talking about.

This is based off the side story of the youngest sister of the Valkyrie leader (I can nvr remb the names...), where at the end they showed a group of Type-04 Shiranui Second assaulting the hive. Not sure if the MLA reference guide Intergral Works had mentioned if all the other hives are really gone at that point in time.

There are, of course, bizillions of betas still out there... But the chance of the HI-MAERF Project being mass produced is also there, so...

[delorean2200]

Just so there are no confussion:

Spoiler for regarding the the situation after...:

Taking out the main hive on earth did make it easier to eradicate the other hives as well and secure up to 30 years in which they can come up with a some better way to fight back, but the beta threat is not over, since they still are a presence on the Moon, Mars and who knows where they came from.

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Not sure if you got the point of mla, hope in despair..

Fair enough, i guess its painful for you to empathize with characters who are constantly in dire status.

I've seen variations on this before and it's a daft argument, just as bad as some of the haters own knee jerk nonsense. I think what some fans don't quite grasp is that many people that dislike the series aren't "too stupid" to get it, they get it just fine, but don't particularly like what's being said, or more precisely in most cases I think how it's done.

The problem is that if you push this kind of thing too far it stops being compelling and heartbreaking and starts to become amusing, or just eye roll inducing. See constant pointless death and despair isn't "realistic" and it's not particularly good storytelling for the most part either. When the atmosphere becomes so almost cartoonishly bleak it starts to come off almost as a parody. Honestly I'm mostly watching it cause I'm a bit of an ass and I enjoy picking things apart at a technical level.

After all, in the Grim Darkness that is MuvLuvAlternative, there is only NOM NOM NOM!

Which is why it comes off as rather trite.

In all honestly though I think your utilization of a 40k meme is rather apropos, as that's a universe that has reached and leaped the threshold I was speaking off. As let's be honest here nothing in 40k is actually depressing or compelling anymore; it's turned into black comedy. Muv-Luv is, for me anyway, flirting with that line. Where when I'm probably supposed to horrified or depressed I find myself bemused or irritated over the constant stream of coincidences, poor choices, or terrible outcomes that keep making everything worse. It's like a meta-fictional slap stick routine where the characters blunders onto a wet floor, brains himself on a shelf knocking a bucket onto his head, and then wanders around dazed and blinded off a giant sheer cliff that was inexplicably placed ten feet away...

Originally Posted by grevierr

More like every single mecha show after Stellvia of the Universe and Blue Gender. FMP is still too super real for me.

I always saw MLA to be a gritty realistic mecha alternate world story. Unlike other mecha shows nowadays...

I'm gonna have to kinda question how exactly Muv-Luv can classify as "realistic" in any sense of the word. Last I checked draining the oceans with unobtainium bombs, anti-gravity propelled doom fortresses, biological organisms somehow able to produce weapons grade lasers, and ESP are junk science of the highest order. Honestly the entire "biological creatures can threaten modern armies" idea is both preposterous, and at this point frankly cliche enough, to dispute it's realism all on it's own.

Originally Posted by grevierr

Just wanted to check, anyone here read the John Ringo Posleen War series?

Its like Starship troopers, with more war and machines. And its most like the situation in MLA as well. Again, humanity is almost at despair status, when human tech and ingenuity overcomes.

I'm quite familiar with the series and the numerous problems is tends to share blatantly nationalist viewpoint, hilariously contrived scenario, boring and flat antagonists, and utterly illogical weapons systems in response to the invaders, and only some tiny group outside the normal chain of command seeming to do ANYTHING useful among the humans. All more minor niggles that keep me cool on the franchise as a whole and that's why I'd rate the Posleen books "okay if you mostly disengage your brain and laugh at the melodrama", and I suppose on Balance I'd have to give Muv-Luv a similar rating.

ACS would just ruin everything's shit though, BETA war I'd be over in like a month with a division of those.

[fertygo]

Is very necessary to watch KGNE and Akane Maniax before playing Muv-Luv Extra?

[Tempester]

Hakuryou Academy gets a new transfer student!

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Originally Posted by fertygo

Is very necessary to watch KGNE and Akane Maniax before playing Muv-Luv Extra?

Nope. Muv-Luv works well as a standalone story.

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Honestly the entire "biological creatures can threaten modern armies" idea is both preposterous, and at this point frankly cliche enough, to dispute it's realism all on it's own.

Spoiler for Major Alternative Spoiler:

Spoiler for The Truth of the BETA:

To be fair, the BETA are more like self-evolving robots than naturally-occurring biological creatures. They're the complete inverse of us and our technology, created by a intelligent lifeform distinctly different from us according to the Superior at the end of Alternative. Where we are Carbon-based lifeforms that develop Silicon-based technology, the BETA's creators are Silicon-based lifeforms that develop Carbon-based technology.

The BETA are programmed to not believe that they are living beings (As found in Alternative), and by proxy, they do not believe that humans or any other Carbon-based "life" on Earth are living beings (As discovered in the in universe Alternative III project).

So not only do we have all those BETA out there, their creators are too; whom may not be exactly pleased with the possibility that there are Carbon-based entities who consider themselves "alive". Technically, the BETA don't even think they're at war, they're just collecting resources for their masters (Remember those monuments over BETA hives; at latter stages such as the Hives on Mars, those actually launch things at locations outside of the solar system).

Since they're programmed to presume naturally-occurring Carbon-based lifeforms are impossible, they see us as resources that are proving slightly more difficult to harvest.

[Asuras]

Originally Posted by delorean2200

Just so there are no confussion:

Spoiler for regarding the the situation after...:

Taking out the main hive on earth did make it easier to eradicate the other hives as well and secure up to 30 years in which they can come up with a some better way to fight back, but the beta threat is not over, since they still are a presence on the Moon, Mars and who knows where they came from.

It's been stated that there are at least something like

Spoiler for spoiler?:

10^37+10^37x7^10 to 10^37+10^37x9^10 BETA in existence.

So yea, humanity is screwed if the Superior's (or whoever is above them) decide that Earth still needs to be taken.

[Silvance]

Originally Posted by fertygo

Is very necessary to watch KGNE and Akane Maniax before playing Muv-Luv Extra?

Not necessary, but I'd recommend it anyway. Why? So you'll get some of their dark humor in Extra. In addition, you'll scream like a little girl out of delight in Alternative

Spoiler for A01:

when you meet the characters in that world too.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by LystAP

Spoiler for Major Alternative Spoiler:

Spoiler for The Truth of the BETA:

To be fair, the BETA are more like self-evolving robots than naturally-occurring biological creatures. They're the complete inverse of us and our technology, created by a intelligent lifeform distinctly different from us according to the Superior at the end of Alternative. Where we are Carbon-based lifeforms that develop Silicon-based technology, the BETA's creators are Silicon-based lifeforms that develop Carbon-based technology.

The BETA are programmed to not believe that they are living beings (As found in Alternative), and by proxy, they do not believe that humans or any other Carbon-based "life" on Earth are living beings (As discovered in the in universe Alternative III project).

So not only do we have all those BETA out there, their creators are too; whom may not be exactly pleased with the possibility that there are Carbon-based entities who consider themselves "alive". Technically, the BETA don't even think they're at war, they're just collecting resources for their masters (Remember those monuments over BETA hives; at latter stages such as the Hives on Mars, those actually launch things at locations outside of the solar system).

Since they're programmed to presume naturally-occurring Carbon-based lifeforms are impossible, they see us as resources that are proving slightly more difficult to harvest.

Spoiler for science:

I believe the missing link you have is the Von Neumann space exploration theory. Its more accurate to say that BETA are self-replicating carbon-based automatons with limited AI that are sent out by silicon based life-forms to explore space. If you look at Von Neumann's theory of space exploration, one method pointed out would be to use self-replicating machines that can use materials found on site to create more of itself so it can spread and explore other regions. These machines would be silicon based lifeforms, and would use silicon materials to create itself...

This fits what was made known, that the BETA reuse parts of biologicals, does not recognize carbon-based lifeforms, and initially were built more for engineering, before specialized beings like the laser class was created in response to fighter jets and arty.

And yah, all the BETAs are doing are 'Mine more Minerals'...

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Tk3997

I've seen variations on this before and it's a daft argument, just as bad as some of the haters own knee jerk nonsense. I think what some fans don't quite grasp is that many people that dislike the series aren't "too stupid" to get it, they get it just fine, but don't particularly like what's being said, or more precisely in most cases I think how it's done.

The problem is that if you push this kind of thing too far it stops being compelling and heartbreaking and starts to become amusing, or just eye roll inducing. See constant pointless death and despair isn't "realistic" and it's not partocuarly good storytelling for the most part either. When the atmosphere becomes so almost cartoonishly bleak it starts to come off almost as a parody. Honestly I'm mostly watching it cause I'm a bit of an ass and I enjoy picking things apart at a technical level.

Well, all i can say was never trying to put down anyone's opinion and never thought of anyone as stupid. Misinformed, yes, but stupid, never. Like i stated, i respected that some would find the endless lost of peace to be less then amusing.

And while i agree that lately the plots that surround stories based on horror and mystery tend to become terror parody (aka Another), i disagree that MuvluvAlt would fall under the same category. The plot is written such that the deaths of the prominent characters give value to the main objective. There was very rarely a series of events that the characters could not have any option but to die. They could have taken the easy way out, but they always choose to complete the mission.

There is also a threshold were people who have seen shit either stop crying or laugh at it. Its where the expression "to start crying, or laugh at the situation" comes from, and would be the start of PSTD reaction. The other reaction would be to clam up around a bleeding heart, and remain stoic. Personally i'm on the border, where i joke at the misery but still cry when it happens. Even on my 11th MLA play through, my heart still bleeds. Which is why i still enjoy reading a good plot play on emotions regardless of the cliche.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Which is why it comes off as rather trite.

In all honestly though I think your utilization of a 40k meme is rather apropos, as that's a universe that has reached and leaped the threshold I was speaking off. As let's be honest here nothing in 40k is actually depressing or compelling anymore; it's turned into black comedy. Muv-Luv is, for me anyway, flirting with that line. Where when I'm probably supposed to horrified or depressed I find myself bemused or irradiated over the constant stream of coincidences, poor choices, or terrible outcomes that keep making everything worse. It's like a meta-fictional slap stick rountine where the characters blunders onto a wet floor, brains himself on a shelf knocking a bucket onto his head, and then wanders around dazed and blinded off a giant sheer cliff that was inexplicably placed ten feet away...

Again, my opinion is as stated. Except in WH40k, there is no hope... just WARGGGH!

Originally Posted by Tk3997

I'm gonna have to kinda question how exactly Muv-Luv can classify as "realistic" in any sense of the word. Last I checked draining the oceans with unobtainium bombs, anti-gravity propelled doom fortresses, biological organisms somehow able to produce weapons grade lasers, and ESP are junk science of the highest order. Honestly the entire "biological creatures can threaten modern armies" idea is both preposterous, and at this point frankly cliche enough, to dispute it's realism all on it's own.

Well, my context in this case is mecha anime. The only real hard core SF anime that does not have an plotainium i have seen is Patlabor.

Perhaps I should rephrase it as real mecha show that includes Hard Science. Its very rare for me to find the Single Electron test, Quantum Mechanics, Higgs Boson, Parallel worlds theory, Von Neumann space exploration theory, all in the same plot. In a War Setting. MLA and John Ringo's series of novels are just about what I can find.

Biological creatures can threaten modern armies if they have diamond hard shells and claws, and outweight the armies by several million tons.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

I'm quite familiar with the series and the numerous problems is tends to share blatantly nationalist viewpoint, hilariously contrived scenario, boring and flat antagonists, and utterly illogical weapons systems in response to the invaders, and one some tiny group outside the normal chain of command seeming to do ANYTHING useful among them. All more minor niggles that keep me cool on the franchise as a whole and that's why I'd rate the Posleen books "okay if you mostly disengage your brain and laugh at the melodrama", and I suppose on Balance I'd have to give Muv-Luv a similar rating.

ACS would just ruin everything's shit though, BETA war I'd be over in like a month with a division of those.

I agree with you that Ringo has an overwhelming sense of patriotism in his novels. However, although the plot can get contrived at points, if you look beyond that it still is awesome some of the things he came up with, regardless of how practical it really is.

Spoiler for tag:

A mobile 50 metres high tank, which needs a derrick to hold its cannon upright, covered by anti-armor claymore mines... with a decal of a rabbit on the side. A series of death stars...

[John117xCortana]

What happened in the end of Unlimited ? After Operation Babylon ?

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by John117xCortana

What happened in the end of Unlimited ? After Operation Babylon ?

Thats what's covered in the MLA Chronicles, ML Unlimited The Day After. Currently the VNs are up to vol 2.

Spoiler for MLU TDA:

Basically now the Beta have a lesser presence, so its back to every country for itself. Lots of TSF vs TSF battles. Which is quite an intelligent way for Age to cover all the bases...

[John117xCortana]

More details please ?

What happened to that Shirogane ?

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Thats what's covered in the MLA Chronicles, ML Unlimited The Day After. Currently the VNs are up to vol 2.

Spoiler for MLU TDA:

Basically now the Beta have a lesser presence, so its back to every country for itself. Lots of TSF vs TSF battles. Which is quite an intelligent way for Age to cover all the bases...

From what I understand:

Spoiler for BETA in Day After:

The BETA aren't gone, some survived Alternative V, including a few functional Hives; to add some salt on the wounds, because of the G-Bombs set off in Alternative V (which blasted all the hives to the bottom of the ocean), it's almost impossible to attack those hives anymore. So the BETA can just sent wave after wave now with limited fear of reprisal.

From a certain point of view, other than the colony ships, Alternative V was a pointless waste of lives and resources.

Originally Posted by John117xCortana

More details please ?

What happened to that Shirogane ?

Spoiler for Shirogane:

I believe Shirogane returned to the cycle, the only thing keeping him in the first place was Sumika's brain; which I presume lost or abandoned after Alternative IV failed.

[touge-n00b]

Originally Posted by LystAP

Spoiler for Shirogane:

I believe Shirogane returned to the cycle, the only thing keeping him in the first place was Sumika's brain; which I presume lost or abandoned after Alternative IV failed.

Actually

Spoiler for Shirogane:

It is shown in Episode 2(?) That Shirogane ends up joining the Imperial Honor Guard. There's a CG out there that shows him in Honor Guard Uniform and with long hair looking depressed.

I've always wondered how that Shirogane relates to the one in Alternative, if he split from himself, or they're one in the same and Alternative Shirogane forgot all those post Alternative V memories.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by touge-n00b

Actually

Spoiler for Shirogane:

It is shown in Episode 2(?) That Shirogane ends up joining the Imperial Honor Guard. There's a CG out there that shows him in Honor Guard Uniform and with long hair looking depressed.

I've always wondered how that Shirogane relates to the one in Alternative, if he split from himself, or they're one in the same and Alternative Shirogane forgot all those post Alternative V memories.

Spoiler for MLA:

According to what we learn in Alternative, Shirogane died in all of the MLU universe fighting the BETA, several years after Operation Babylon.

So in Ep2, we can assume the Shiro that is the conductor has not died yet. What happens to him i would really like to see. As I said before, Age really covered all the bases with this route.

The original Shiro in BETA worlds would all have been NOMed already.

[John117xCortana]

What does "A Dead Man Walks Among Us." mean philosophically ?

[Dragonkid11]

Spoiler for MLA-BETA:

I just wondering why does the BETA have freaking laser beam,giant fort-class and other extremely offensive capability to deal with things MORE than just mining when their jobs is to mine out mineral.

While the BETA is programmed to not view carbon-based life as alive,what kind of "natural phenomena" can shoot thousands of 36mm HEAP projective at you.What kind of weather involved massive NUCLEAR EXPLOSION.Why does BETA think it is possible to seduce a something that's not alive with sexual interaction?CAN YOU SEDUCE DIAMOND!?!?

........
While BETA existed to create MAXIMUM DESPAIR in the story,whoever made them is either a smart moron,a silicon-based racist or just plain troll

That's it for my rant,now let me sob to my content

[grylsyjaeger]

Originally Posted by touge-n00b

Actually

Spoiler for Shirogane:

It is shown in Episode 2(?) That Shirogane ends up joining the Imperial Honor Guard. There's a CG out there that shows him in Honor Guard Uniform and with long hair looking depressed.

I've always wondered how that Shirogane relates to the one in Alternative, if he split from himself, or they're one in the same and Alternative Shirogane forgot all those post Alternative V memories.

Oh I think I've actually seen that CG.

Found it;

Spoiler for Chronicles 3 Spoiler:

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by John117xCortana

What does "A Dead Man Walks Among Us." mean philosophically ?

Philosophically, we are ALL dead men walking. Johnny Walked.

Originally Posted by Dragonkid11

Spoiler for MLA-BETA:

I just wondering why does the BETA have freaking laser beam,giant fort-class and other extremely offensive capability to deal with things MORE than just mining when their jobs is to mine out mineral.

While the BETA is programmed to not view carbon-based life as alive,what kind of "natural phenomena" can shoot thousands of 36mm HEAP projective at you.What kind of weather involved massive NUCLEAR EXPLOSION.Why does BETA think it is possible to seduce a something that's not alive with sexual interaction?CAN YOU SEDUCE DIAMOND!?!?

........
While BETA existed to create MAXIMUM DESPAIR in the story,whoever made them is either a smart moron,a silicon-based racist or just plain troll

That's it for my rant,now let me sob to my content

Spoiler for Science:

How can inert materials create giga-joules of coherent light energy, nuclear fission, and 100,000 tons machinery? If its possible for us to create it, its possible for it to be created biologically. Its all from the same basic building blocks in the beginning. The universe is large and strange. Look at humans for example.

As for natural phenomena, referring from the NASA hand book of "bad things to encounter in space", a comet storm would be worst than 36mm depleted uranium rounds, and planets which are close to the sun or are young/old and unstable would have the energy effects of a nuclear explosion upon their surface on a constant occurrence. Planetary bodies with lower atmospheric content than earth would have constant bombardment by meteors, each would have the energy of a multi kilo ton nuke.

If I were to use Von Neumann's plan and send out self-replicating space probes, i would definitely include plans for worst case scenarios, and give the AI adaptive behavior programming against what they might encounter, with an exclusion critirial that it is not to recognize itself as an living intelligent being, according to one of the theories that an living being has to be
1) Self-sufficient,
2) Self-replicating,
3) Self-aware.
This is to prevent an Terminator scenario where the machines think they are alive and are self-aware. Too bad for any intelligent crystals they might encounter, we need our jewelry and computer parts.

Now swap that around and you get BETAs... which have traveled across space for an untold amount of time, quite possibly outliving their creators.