2012-04-07, 11:39 | Link #28341 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Spoiler for interview with Keiya, tagged for length:
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I will expand on Kealym's explanation. Beatrice decided to give Erika a 'handicap' and said she could use X to explain how Kanon left the "cousins' room". Of course this is because Kanon was never actually in the "cousins' room", but was 'sleeping dormant' within Shannon in the "next room over", which is why he wasn't included in "everyone else is in the cousins' room". At some point Kanon mode 'activated' and he exited the window of the "next room over", which was never confirmed to have maintained its seal at the time of the logic error (so the seal could simply have been broken without its status verified, and no one was going to verify it because all attention was on the window in the "cousins' room" instead). Erika may have figured it all out if she asked the right questions, so Beatrice drew her attention away from the guesthouse with the 'handicap' thing. Crafty, isn't she? But it is a logic error if you don't accept Kanon "sleeping dormant" allowing him to not be included in "everyone else". |
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2012-04-07, 11:42 | Link #28342 | ||||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Actually speaking of game three, I never quite understood who killed Nanjo, I know it has something to do with standing in the doorway and the crime occurring earlier than we thought or something though.... Also in relation to game three, was everyone killed by something other than the bomb at the end? I seem to remember they were. If not the red "Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board (This is in response to any factor such as animals or robots that might have been involved.)" becomes a bit iffy... Quote:
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And lets face it, they were willing to carry out a prank that involved the family legitimately believing other members of the family were gruesomely murdered. I find it suspicious that they would go this far without coercion, which is why I always thought it went a little like in Confessions, where the culprit abandons that farce whenever they need to and uses some other method to keep the players in line. That or kills them. Quote:
More importantly, Genji wanted Yasu to solve he riddle for Kinzo, whether it was needed or shown or not, I'm guessing he would have prodded her to the answer one way or another. Quote:
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I am sure it is probably wrong, but it certainly would be a lovely Bern move to promise the truth of the Rokkenjima (oh no, I finally had to attempt to spell it) incident be in the book, only to read that the truth was "no-one really knows what happened on that day". Quote:
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Though really I just sit around trying to create trouble with well established and likely scenarios, all because of a few of his other ambiguous comments in interview. Quote:
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As a side note Erika should have seen that crushing defeat coming, Beatrice wasn't going to let her ignore the escape from the room unless she had an even more heinous problem to give her. It's the same as in an argument with me, if I ever ask you to agree to a statement, warning bells better be going off. Quote:
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2012-04-07, 11:52 | Link #28343 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Since it's being discussed, one thing I always thought was odd about the logic error closed room was that Featherine seemed to be saying in the meta-conversation with Ange that there was still some move available to solve it after Dlanor sealed the windows of the next room over.
But in the end, the actual solution DID end up involving someone exiting the next room over. Kind of disappointing, honestly. Edit: Missed this. Quote:
-Rudolf, Hideyoshi or Kyrie wasn't dead when they were discovered. They killed Nanjo, then died themselves for some reason. -Beatrice killed him, since she can still survive after Shannon and Kanon are dead. Generally I tend to go for the latter since the former is part of Battler's attempt to solve everything in EP4 where he got pretty much everything else wrong. |
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2012-04-07, 12:46 | Link #28344 |
Finite Witch
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: The Meta-World of Texas
Age: 29
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Regarding Kumasawa culprit theory, is it poosible to follow this line of reasoning:
If Kumasawa had found the gold, then if she were to commit the crimes she would have known to hide in Kuwadorian from everyone else if she didn't kill everyone, or simply found out about the bombs(unlikely though). The only murder I can seriously see Kumasawa pulling off is poisoning the adults after the kids left the conference through their tea or such. Kumasawa could only fulfuill the role of a temporary accompolice, but never the main culprit as she probably wouldn't have died otherwise. EP1 being the exception however as Kumasawa does survive until the second to last murders and the reason she died was because Genji or Nanjo either knew her identity and (a) were accomplices that didn't want her alive, or (b) she attempted to shoot one of them, or even possibly did do so, then the survivor tried to shoot Kumasawa at the same time she tried to shoot them. Thus the twiligt is complete. Then Kanon(who's death was never witnessed was the final culprit that shot Natushi.) And I can also see Kumasawa being the one to tell Maria to sing, and the way she told her could have easilly made her feel Beatrice was talking through Kumasawa. This can further supported on the theory that since Yasu had talked with Maria as Beatrice about the fantasy characters Maria had related Virgilia, previous Beatrice, with Kumasawa. And EP7 shows Kumasawa acknowledging Yasu as Beatrice, so the witty old lady may have taken part in the tea parties between Maria and Yasu as being possesed by Virgilia, or even being her human incarnation. If Kumasawa had told Maria not to tell anyone that she was actually an age old witch, Maria probably would have stayed silent about it. Also, in EP4 Kumasawa and Ghoda are sensible accomplices to the culprit as either of them could have randomly poisoned 6 teacups and put some other drug in the other cups, possibly leading to hallucinations. Afterwards Kumasawa has been shown to be a great actress so her freaking out before the cousins could have been a farce, and then neither may have thought that the culprit wouldn't kill them as accomplices in the shed, so they gave that person the key and they were murdered. Then the key would just be tossed back through the window. I apologize if this has already been brought and is therefore useless information to bog your grey cells. Opinions/logic errors?
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Last edited by Joachim13; 2012-04-07 at 12:50. Reason: Wall of text... |
2012-04-07, 15:02 | Link #28348 |
Finite Witch
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: The Meta-World of Texas
Age: 29
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Just to clarify, the first half of my thoughts were why Kumasawa can't be the culprit, with the exception of being an accompolice, which is what the second half was. I still think that Kumasawa being the one to tell Maria to sing is probable, reguardless of whether she had any intentions killing someone. Also, I find it weird to question the possibility that Kumasawa has never murdered anyone do to the 5-8 Twilights in EP1. I haven't thought beyond Battler's theory from Alliance with the exception that only person A shot person B, then in self-defense person C shot A, and at the same time A shot C. 2 out of the 3 would have killed another person and I just can't see Nanjo with a gun... Old ladies though can be mean.
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2012-04-07, 16:55 | Link #28349 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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2012-04-07, 18:01 | Link #28350 | ||||||||||||
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However the solution about Rosa and Maria's death wasn't given so anything goes. Quote:
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It was Halloween, the Ushiromiya were used to celebrate it, Kinzo, Eva and Rudolf were said to have fun scaring the cousins. According to various circumstances people might have thought of it as just a game, expecially if many were in on the fact it was just a game (in EP 6 everyone is in minus Erika and Erika doesn't look scared) and they wouldn't have even need to be paid. "Battler is back and he's a fan of mystery, let's celebrate his coming back with a mystery game!" Though I think it didn't go that smoothly with everyone some might have just accepted it easily. The problem would start when someone would die for real. Quote:
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Shannon didn't say she was trying to solve the epitaph and he couldn't know if she would manage to do so so actually if things went as they were shown what he did was pretty small. Will though said Yasu was made solve the epitaph and the riddle is supposed to be hard so it's possible she received other hints we don't know about. Quote:
In the same way if Shannon didn't know she was Kinzo's daughter and heir and therefore Genji's 'master' is unlikely she would have asked him to let her play a double role as it would have been trickery toward Genji's master to whom he was believed to be very loyal. The easy answer is: Shannon created an imaginary brother then Kinzo died, Natsuhi needed to hide the thing when the siblings were around so in order not to lower the number of the servants around and at the same time to not have servants that could be questioned by the siblings about facts that could lead them to guess Kinzo is dead she asked Shannon to play that extra role (or Shannon suggested it either to her or to Genji). So all the 'let's hide Kinzo's death group' would be aware of this and help keeping up the illusion. Quote:
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While some of the murders can fall in the revenge section for some things go too much out of proportion to consider revenge an acceptable motive. Gohda could put her in troubles so let's kill him? She would never manage to love Jessica/George so let's kill them (force them to be part of her suicide scheme)? Hideyoshi was Eva's husband and Eva was against her marrying George? Maria... well she would be a orphan after she killed Rosa who actually never did something against her though she beat Maria so let's kill her as well? Those motives are crazy though they can still be 'motives'. But if the solution is Yasu is mad it becomes unsatisfing, possible but unsatisfing. Quote:
For example pick up the "Yasu is the daughter of Beato 2" theory. It's possible to form another theory that said that "Yasu believed/was made believe she was the daughter of Beato 2 but actually this isn't true". It was the topic of a discussion some posts ago. If Yasu isn't Kinzo's legittimate heir you can suspect that... let's say Genji tricked her into thinking so for his own ends and that he's actually the mastermind behind the tragedy and even managed to escape with some money he converted. Yasu survived and tralized she'd been tricked sos he wrote the tales feeling guilty for what had happened. Eva also was tricked into doing/thinking something by Genji so she's keeping silent. Though this theory for Prime is likely not the right one (even if on Prime Knox and Van Dine shouldn't work I think Ryukishi still intended for the servants not to be the culprits) it is possible to form it with the hints given. Oh I love creating scenarios as well, it's probably the part I like the most about Umineko... though at the same time I get many of the scenarios I've fun creating couldn't possibly be the intended solution... even if they work. |
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2012-04-07, 19:57 | Link #28351 | |||||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Also, if it WAS Beato who killed him, it brings a whole new twisted edge to the scene where Kannon then leads Jessica to safety. Quote:
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Well, apart from the fact we can suspect Ryu only followed the Van Dine he mentioned, another point about that is, it was likely wrong in implicating Eva as the killer. Quote:
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Darn Ryu nailed that one on the head. Quote:
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Though it would add an interesting layer as to why Kannon initially denied Jessica's love, if in the beginning (emphasis there), even Yasu thought of him as not a real person. Then he gained life through (a rather inferior as we know) love... Quote:
Not likely, but you could say it was hinted at. Quote:
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Which reminds me, what DO you guys think the Beato/Ange pivot answers are? I was really hoping Beato's wasn't that magic did it all, because really she was the witch of pretending magic did it all. And if you really believe that Yasu didn't have a strong enough motive, then why did Ange (through Ep 7 and 8) think she was trying to protect her? Also, wasn't the message of a lot of Ryu's games something about how all these fights over money were silly, Rosa realising she should have just fled the bomb, and Lamba saying money is hollow compared to loosing a family. Maybe what they are trying to say is through some foolish action of Kyrie and Rudolf, almost everyone died because they were all fighting over the money... As a final note, from Memoirs of Lamba we know she made Beato a witch after she met Takano, but also she stated she trapped Bern with a gameboard she had borrowed from Beato. This is either poor planning on Ryu's part, or we can work out the exact timing of the window in which that could occur. |
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2012-04-07, 21:32 | Link #28352 | |||||||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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If you go and say it was an incident I can believe it, but if it was a planned murder then no, I don't really believe it. I know but this doesn't really help guessing what's truly true in it as it apparently isn't the solution of what had happened in Prime. Quote:
So we've Battler describing them as nice and then we see them act as definitely not nice people. Either Battler was... well completely wrong in his judgement or this was the result of placing together 2 different opinions. ... I'm not sure I'm explaining this clearly... Quote:
Jessica wouldn't even know Battler and Co are saying to her mother they saw her dead. Quote:
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But I'm not that fond of Genji. It's true he said he wanted to protect Yasu from becoming Kinzo's new lover interest but basically let her grow as a orphan and as a servant in a home that should have been her own as well. Yasu longs quite a lot for acceptance and love and Genji's solution didn't provide her those. I would have preferred if he had adopted her or have her adopted by someone else (Kumasawa, Nanjo, someone else) so that she would have a family and might grow up like a normal kid. Even Natsuhi said that she was too young to work yet, as she was hired, she had to work. Quote:
No one shows knowledge about Shannon and Kanon being the same person... the issue is addressed only in Chiru and in a veiled manner. Natsuhi however is a careful planner and a person who tends to control everything that happens in her house. It's hard to picture her missing that Kanon's origins are suspicious... plus again there's the issue of Kanon having to disappear when Shannon is around... and the problem of their working schedules. Quote:
It was said Yasu created it prior to Kinzo's death but we've no info on when he took a solid body. Note that in the beginning it was Shannon that was Yasu's imaginary friend but to the outside world they were one and the same. There weren't Shannon and Yasu, just a person with the blessed name of Shannon and the nick of Yasu. For Kanon in the beginning it can have been the same. He was just Yasu/Shannon immaginary friend, the same as Gaap. Then Shannon got the chance to give him a more real existence and caught it. Quote:
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When Kirye says she wanted to kill Asumu is because in that way she hoped to get Rudolf. In short from killing someone she was hoping for a possible gain. She hinted she was still a bit out of it at that time due to her grief but her murdering plan has a logic. Yasu hasn't. As soon as she kills someone she buys a ticket for the jail. Her actions cause pain and fear that not everyone deserve and yet she administer them equally. Going back to 10 little indians the murderer killed first the ones that deserves as little pain as possible so that they wouldn't have to deal with the fear their situation created and then the complete bastards. In Umineko this isn't done. Maria lives till the last twilight or dies at the second. Same for Jessica. Gohda died in different twilights as well. As Battler figured out the culprit can't hate them all equally yet in her games Yasu deals with everyone (apart from Battler) equally comparing Natsuhi's sin (trying to kill her) to Jessica and Maria... whatever they did wrong. If this happened in real life as well it's maddness and that's unsatisfing as far as I'm involved. Quote:
It was Eva who was trying to protect her. Beatro tries to 'protect' Ange in Ep 8 but Ep 8 likely is just Ange's fantasy of some sort and anyway Beato was doing it due to Battler's request. If Yasu became Ikuko and she did something to protect Ange it might be due to the fact she cared about Toya Quote:
Though I've read that tip quite a bit ago so I might remember wrong... |
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2012-04-07, 23:54 | Link #28353 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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"the resurrection of the souls of all the dead" is a 'spell' that in real world terms can only be achieved if the deaths were fake in the first place. "the resurrection of the lost love" is the only part that Yasu can't control. This is the part she hopes to 'magically' come true. "to put the Witch to sleep for all time" wraps it up. Yasu will reveal everything and retire from her role as Beatrice. |
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2012-04-08, 02:40 | Link #28355 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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If you want more evidence for a fake murder game...
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I'm not sure what your last sentence is talking about. |
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2012-04-08, 02:43 | Link #28356 | |||||
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2012-04-08, 06:48 | Link #28358 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Re-reading Ep7, Will said that Claire did not think that anyone would understand her motive hence why Lion was there. So should we not try to understand her motive or rather that her motive was too twisted for other people to understand.
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Although I do wonder in terms of the "innocent murder game" theory, how do you interpret in EP6 where Yasuda tells Beatrice that one day she will destroy everything and revive everything as well bring blessing to all of the lovers. |
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2012-04-08, 09:21 | Link #28359 | |||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Beato will sort of reconstruct Yasu because as of now Yasu is split into who she's supposed to be (Shannon), who she'd like to be (Beato), and who she'd like to have around (Gaap, Ronove, Kanon). I see it as an 'as of now I can't fulfil my wishes and love but one day I'll manage to be who I wish and have the love story I'll wish'. She also talks about how only she could see Beato (her true self) but how others might be able to love Beato and therefore see her, so I take this as a way to say that other will also see the real Yasu and love her. Though I guess this is just my interpretation. It's not supposed to be. An interpretation is that the episodes are basically inner fantasies. Generally EP 1-7 are thought to be Toya's reconstructions/dreams/reinterpretation of what he remembers and write. EP 8 instead looks more like Ange's fantasy. In shor the meta battle became a magical representation of the thoughts going on in a certain character head, or if you want a metaphorical representation of them. So Battler in EP 8 becomes the part of Ange that wants to love and trust her family while Bern represent the most cinical part of her, the one that believes there will be no miracle and that the truth is unpleasant. The fight between Battler and Bern represent the confusion inside Ange who, in the end, is the only one who can decide who'll prevail and make a choice. And in the end you see her sort of aknowledging this as she could chose if turn on or off Beato (it's sort of fun to see Ange making Beato disappear). Quote:
Though Maria doesn't seem that scared she suffers when other argues or refuse to believe her. And in EP 4 it's likely Yasu who killed Maria by poison. Quote:
To clarify things: I can't see Maria pushing Rosa on purpose so that she'll fall, stab herself and die. If however Maria pushed her because Rosa was hurting her I'm fine with this interpretation, though I don't like it much as it leaves us with a second culprit to discover and I've already told you why I don't like the multiple culprit theory in the games (in Rokkenjima Prime though things could have gone differently). |
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2012-04-08, 11:10 | Link #28360 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I still think the scene where Eva shoots Battler is weird, though. |
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