Sword Art Online - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Dengar]

You know, somehow I doubt that this boss cannot be escaped from. It just wouldn't be fair, and it's already been established that SAO is fair.

To clarify: Making it impossible to gather intel on a raid boss because those who go to check have to either beat it or die, basically makes the boss impossible. People who played MMO's with raid bosses should know what I mean.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Dengar

You know, somehow I doubt that this boss cannot be escaped from. It just wouldn't be fair, and it's already been established that SAO is fair.

To clarify: Making it impossible to gather intel on a raid boss because those who go to check have to either beat it or die, basically makes the boss impossible. People who played MMO's with raid bosses should know what I mean.

There is a vast difference: you can revive in a regular MMO, and wiping on a boss early isn't that detrimental, except for PVE race between guilds etc. In fact, some games force you to wipe at least once to learn the mechanic of it.
WoW had a lot of "closed boss rooms" for instance, and even if you can leave the room, the boss will just chase you down until you are dead. Hell, I still have bad memories of the learning curve for Vaelastraezs back in vanilla wow.

Kirito describing SAO as fair doesn't mean you can engage boss to learn everything then come back afterwards. It actually means that there is always a specific method for X or Y moments, and are to be found, regardless how. So learning on the spot is feasible.
Example: under your own assumption, Episode 2 boss would be unfair, especially if Kirito wasn't there. Yet, there is no way to know the boss would have a nodachi and a pattern change without engaging it. The game gives enough clue on the go to learn and circumvent the issues: the obvious look of his new weapon, the transition in the boss attack pattern, the clear pause before resuming his attacks etc.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

There is a vast difference: you can revive in a regular MMO, and wiping on a boss early isn't that detrimental, except for PVE race between guilds etc. In fact, some games force you to wipe at least once to learn the mechanic of it.
WoW had a lot of "closed boss rooms" for instance, and even if you can leave the room, the boss will just chase you down until you are dead. Hell, I still have bad memories of the learning curve for Vaelastraezs back in vanilla wow.

Kirito describing SAO as fair doesn't mean you can engage boss to learn everything then come back afterwards. It actually means that there is always a specific method for X or Y moments, and are to be found, regardless how. So learning on the spot is feasible.
Example: under your own assumption, Episode 2 boss would be unfair, especially if Kirito wasn't there. Yet, there is no way to know the boss would have a nodachi and a pattern change without engaging it. The game gives enough clue on the go to learn and circumvent the issues: the obvious look of his new weapon, the transition in the boss attack pattern, the clear pause before resuming his attacks etc.

EXCEPT For the past 70+ floors they have been able to gather intel just fine. Suddenly making a boss impossible to escape without any warning whatsoever is just plain cruel.

[Rising Dragon]

My guess is that while Kirito and Asuna are just going to check the boss out, that Laughing Coffin guy we saw earlier will close up the boss room and do something to prevent teleports, as payback for interfering with their kill attempt against Kains, Schmitt, and Yolko, and that'll force the two of them to slay the boss on their own.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Dengar

EXCEPT For the past 70+ floors they have been able to gather intel just fine. Suddenly making a boss impossible to escape without any warning whatsoever is just plain cruel.

The game is cruel to begin with. I don't think you can say it was fair to have a "impending doom" treasure room associated with anti crystal field to boot back in episode 3 like that, and Kirito only survived because he was way overleveled for the dungeon, otherwise he would have been sparkling pixels like Sachi & co. So anything can happen, and relying on past floors experience is not a good idea, while Asuna already stated things are going unpredictable back starting with floor 70.

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by Adigard

An exploit that makes people fear falling asleep outside their rooms... as the anime has already proven multiple times that private rooms are totally safe (part of why the murder arc was such a drastic shift).

And if the SAO duel's are anything like standard MMO-fare duel's there's probably an opt-out button somewhere.

Spoiler:

The LN states you can cancel a duel with a simple vocal command.

If that option truly exists, this whole sleep pk thing wouldn't even be an issue. No game is completely without loopholes. The sleep pk issue proves this.

[Key Board]

there's no reason why you should accept Kirito's words at face value. he is not the game developer

from what is seen, this game is anything but fair.

it's designed to punish people who make mistakes. Thus, the best strategy becomes: let someone else die, so I can figure out the solution. It's like Lemmings. You have to sacrifice a few, so the rest can progress.

And let's not get started on the exploit to PK people in their sleep. Why is PK even allowed in a co-op game like this?

It's to maximize tension and suffering.

That Kirito still finds this game fair even after all of this tells a lot about himself. he was probably very unhappy in real life. He was probably bullied at school and/or had an oppressive parent. So much to the point that he escapes reality using games.

but in this world he's clearly the alpha and in charge of his own "life"

his perspective is from a broken person who is already used to playing these kind of games. Not to mention that he also beta-tested this game. This seems like a doable challenge to him. This seems "fair" to him. Not so much to others.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

If that option truly exists, this whole sleep pk thing wouldn't even be an issue. No game is completely without loopholes. The sleep pk issue proves this.

There isn't any contradiction: considering the fact you don't feel any pain in SAO, there is no way for you to realize you are being attacked while asleep in SAO.
Therefore, pk sleep completely bypass the point, since the only way for the victim to avoid that is to wake up before being killed and forfeit on the spot.
The fact you can surrender in a duel doesn't mean it would save you from sleep pk. Much to the contrary, it means -so long you cannot do that, you are at the pk mercy-.

[itoastmysocks]

this whole beta testers have advantages thing, and the game being fair...

I have betatested countless of mmo's over the past decade, and there is one thing that I have allways noticed, unless you are able to reach maxlevel in the beta and are able to view endgame content, it's pretty much just advertisment, that some players even pay money for, and the real beta test are the first 2 months of the actual game.

And about fairness, there are a bunch of beta testers, who actually find bugs, and exploits, but just won't report em till their knowledge becomes widespread so they can abuse em in the main game, so saying anything is /fair/ has to be taken with a grain of salt, because just because you don't know about any unfair bugs or exploits, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Also with higher floors the difficulty should increase, there should be new mechanics, and there should be a higher risk of death, after all (even though this is a death in RL hardcore mode MMO) it's still an MMO and whould would want to play something where the higher tiers of content are just copies of the stuff you allready did, just with bigger numbers.

[edit] being such an avid MMO_freak is pretty much what got me hooked to this show, and all the lil references they drop every now and then, is just priceless, the only thing that REALLY bothers me to no end is that we have never seen anyone level up on screen

[lightsenshi]

The way to prevent getting killed from sleep pk would be to have an option of surrendering or yielding a duel when you get to a certain percent. Better option would be to be partnered up and take turns guarding the other.

It really isn't a matter of learning from your mistakes. Mistakes that tend to be deadly aren't learned from, at least by the person making them....

[Krono]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

If that option truly exists, this whole sleep pk thing wouldn't even be an issue. No game is completely without loopholes. The sleep pk issue proves this.

No, you need to be awake to issue the command, so by the time you wake up from the sensation of being hit, and figure out what's happening, you're usually dead. It's possible someone waking up too soon was how they discovered the exploit existed and was being used, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be viable 9 times out of 10.

Originally Posted by Key Board

from what is seen, this game is anything but fair.

it's designed to punish people who make mistakes. Thus, the best strategy becomes: let someone else die, so I can figure out the solution.

It punishes recklessness, and carelessness. That's not the same thing as being unfair. Unfair would be some of the cheaper things a game can do like enrage timers that result in instant death if your DPS isn't high enough.

And let's not get started on the exploit to PK people in their sleep. Why is PK even allowed in a co-op game like this?

Why wouldn't it be? The main focus of the game may be co-op, but there would inevitably be a lot of people that would want options for PvP, including ones that allow for ambush and so forth.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by itoastmysocks

being such an avid MMO_freak is pretty much what got me hooked to this show, and all the lil references they drop every now and then, is just priceless, the only thing that REALLY bothers me to no end is that we have never seen anyone level up on screen

But we have. We saw Silica level up back in episode 4.. and one of the members of the Black Cats guild back in episode 3.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Key Board

It's to maximize tension and suffering.

You have not been listening to Kayaba's speech.

Originally Posted by Krono

It punishes recklessness, and carelessness. That's not the same thing as being unfair. Unfair would be some of the cheaper things a game can do like enrage timers that result in instant death if your DPS isn't high enough.

This guy beat me to the punch. Suddenly disabling something that has been a viable tatics for over three-fourths of the game in itself is bad enough. Doing so without warning, however, basically punishes people for literally doing what they have been doing for years. Not to mention they can't even go back and tell anyone about this stunning new development, because they'd be dead.

[itoastmysocks]

Originally Posted by Aphrah

But we have. We saw Silica level up back in episode 4.. and one of the members of the Black Cats guild back in episode 3.

were those really levelups? I can't honestly remember, probably because I never pay much attention to what happens to side characters.. my bad guess I'm gonna rewatch stuff.. yay I found a way to kill time till this weeks episode, thanks alot xD

[Solafighter]

There was this discussion, who is stronger, Kirito or Asuna, i think its Kirito. Since Asuna is the vice commander of the squad(guild), she is less on the front lines, aint she? Just wonder about that. Or is it normal, the higher the ranks, the more to the front, you go?

[Dengar]

Authority equals asskicking, especially in Japan.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Key Board

there's no reason why you should accept Kirito's words at face value. he is not the game developer

from what is seen, this game is anything but fair.

it's designed to punish people who make mistakes. Thus, the best strategy becomes: let someone else die, so I can figure out the solution. It's like Lemmings. You have to sacrifice a few, so the rest can progress.

And let's not get started on the exploit to PK people in their sleep. Why is PK even allowed in a co-op game like this?

It's to maximize tension and suffering.

That Kirito still finds this game fair even after all of this tells a lot about himself. he was probably very unhappy in real life. He was probably bullied at school and/or had an oppressive parent. So much to the point that he escapes reality using games.

but in this world he's clearly the alpha and in charge of his own "life"

his perspective is from a broken person who is already used to playing these kind of games. Not to mention that he also beta-tested this game. This seems like a doable challenge to him. This seems "fair" to him. Not so much to others.

All he means by "fair" is that, if it was just a normal MMO, it would be well balanced. There isn't one build that's undeniably superior to the others. You can more or less guess how strong a monster's going to be by its looks and where you found it (meaning you aren't going to run into a super boss in the first forest outside Starting City). That's why he assumed there was no way for one asshole player to ruin it all for everybody by making the safe areas unsafe while staying safe himself.

Sleep PK? People weren't supposed to sleep while hooked up to start with. That people who go second are safer? When isn't that the case? But those who go first (of which he is) also have higher rewards, which actually makes it fairer than the real world.

All Kirito's ability to still call it "fair" means is that he's able to look at things objectively instead of being stuck reacting emotionally because of his personal involvement.

Originally Posted by Dengar

EXCEPT For the past 70+ floors they have been able to gather intel just fine. Suddenly making a boss impossible to escape without any warning whatsoever is just plain cruel.

It's also been progressively harder from floor to floor. And especially recently.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Solafighter

There was this discussion, who is stronger, Kirito or Asuna, i think its Kirito. Since Asuna is the vice commander of the squad(guild), she is less on the front lines, aint she? Just wonder about that. Or is it normal, the higher the ranks, the more to the front, you go?

I would assume that Kirito is stronger. Is right at the front lines able to fight while keeping a safety limit. Even while taking on jobs for 'clients' should still be taking in that extra experience from soloing the monsters. But I don't think Asuna is far behind. Seems like a much more hands on person and she didn't seem to have much problem taking on that skeleton. If she is helping to plan the boss battles I'd assume she's taking part. Don't think her rank is related to being on the front lines less, just that Kirito needs to level higher than most to solo the same areas.

Plus like it was stated Kirito is probably more powerful simply because he's put more points in strength than Asuna .

[Key Board]

SAO is about as fair as Jigsaw from Saw games are fair. Or the games from Ultimate Survivor Kaiji

ultimately, the games are made to favor a particular mindset and punish those who do not conform to it

it's "fair" in a way, that if you look for signs, you can see the solution. But it does not give you the chance to learn from mistakes, as mistakes mean death.

the point is, that it's NOT a game. It's a trial.

[Anh_Minh]

Don't be ridiculous. There are plenty of survivable mistakes. Kirito's survived his share. Heck, I'm pretty sure all those guys who aren't elite players made mistakes too.

And again, Kirito wasn't addressing the death game aspect when he was speaking about fairness.