Umineko - Mystery/Literature discussion

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

If you want a non-Mystery novel, there's the Pages of Pain by Troy Denning. This takes place in the rather strange unconventional fantasy universe of Planescape. The story itself is told by the Lady of Pain, one of the great enigmas of the Planescape universe who appears to be but isn't quite the same as a goddess. In it she tells the story of a hero and his quest to regain his lost honor, but she tells it as it is happening. At times though, she talks to the reader directly, and at times she figures out that the reader has interfered with her manipulations of the hero. (For good or for worse, as the pain she inflicts she claims will help the hero.)

Not a mystery, but I thought the interplay between the reader and the Lady of Pain was interesting. (If any character from that setting could be on the same level as the reader it is her.)

I'm not recommending it as a mystery, but just pointing out the interesting aspect of 'surprising' the reader by making it sound like you were involved.

Spoiler for About the story:

In essence the novel anticipates your feelings about the hero and reflects that in the book as an 'action' you took. Unless you like schaudenfraude, it's likely that you'll feel sucked in like that. Although now that I've told you... maybe it wouldn't work anymore... Hm. Maybe I'll put this in spoilers. 8)

A bit off-topic but this is ironic. Those books are generally frowned upon by planescape fans precisely because they are narrated by the Lady of Pain, which is a character that should have remained shrouded in mystery and imperscrutable. Showing her thoughts caused the "magic" surrouding her to break, and that's why fans refuse to consider those books canon.

[Kylon99]

Sometimes, the fans are the worst enemies of a franchise. Or even enemies of good ol' character development... 8)

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

A bit off-topic but this is ironic. Those books are generally frowned upon by planescape fans precisely because they are narrated by the Lady of Pain, which is a character that should have remained shrouded in mystery and imperscrutable. Showing her thoughts caused the "magic" surrouding her to break, and that's why fans refuse to consider those books canon.

It doesn't help that the books are full of plotholes.

Sometimes, the fans are the worst enemies of a franchise. Or even enemies of good ol' character development... 8)

The thing is, the Lady of Pain SHOULDN'T be developed. The creators of her character wanted her to be an unquantifiable enigma for the same reason she has no stats: She is always a bigger fish that can do and think possibly anything, be whatever the GM needs to be, and is so completely ineffable that she can never be defeated and the setting unraveled. By doing a book from her point of view and giving her a fucking origin story, you take all of that away and make her something a player could Punch Out.

It's not really the fanbase's fault, it's legitimately the writer's. This is the equivalent of someone writing a Star Wars book that says that the Jedis invented the Force by genetically engineering the midichlorians. It's a betrayal of the thematic principles the franchise is built on.

[Swigun]

Just curious: has anyone read Christie's "Third Girl"?

People who have read it should know why I ask this question :P

[rogerpepitone]

I have. And Agatha did *spoiler* much better than Ryu. Just as John Dickson Carr did *spoiler* better than Ryu in _The Three Coffins_,

[Swigun]

Much better?
I don't think so, hints are many and pretty clear in both of them. Simply Umineko is more dispersive.

Mh, The three coffins is pretty different, I think Third Girl is more similar at Umineko than it.

[rogerpepitone]

The *spoiler* for _Three Coffins_ is different from that for _Third Girl_. I say _Third Girl_ did it better than Umineko because character's motivations actually make sense.

[Captain Bluebeard]

I haven't read Three Coffins or Third Girl, but the motivation in Umineko did make sense...didn't it? Alright, it wasn't the most sense-making thing in the world, but I guess without love it cannot be seen.

[Kylon99]

I finished The Devotion of Suspect X a few weeks ago and I highly recommend it.

There's an English translated version available for sale anywhere, and even in eBook format, so you don't have to learn Japanese. 8) Higashino is known for writing stories about people who fall into desperate situations and their thoughts and feelings as they hide their crime. This book is no different. (Shinzanmono, the TV series, novels or the movie coming out in Japan this month also follows these themes.)

They also made a movie from this book; I have yet to watch that.

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

I have. And Agatha did *spoiler* much better than Ryu. Just as John Dickson Carr did *spoiler* better than Ryu in _The Three Coffins_,

Spoiler for Might be spoiling The Three Coffins:

I really don't understand all the praise given to The Three Coffins. While the story and characters are very interesting and Carr does a great job fleshing out especially the two brothers, the solution is way too complicated (and it is not really a locked room, making the famous locked room lecture from Dr. Fell meaningless).

I don't think The Three Coffins is the best example of Carr's work. Of course, I recommend reading it, as it is a pretty good book, but I don't think it was a fair mystery.