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Old 2018-05-26, 06:19   Link #61
Klashikari
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V&A pretty much explained he recovered information from his future self about the future from Kagari when he toyed her head. This is connected with the mention of the "professor" by Suzuha and all the brainwashing mess in 2036.
From there, Leskinen learned at least 2 sure things: 1) the brainwashing stuff done on Kagari which is very likely the reason how he could do those between 1998-2010 2) there are time travelers, hence the time machine exists.

This is why the change of decision is extremely important in term of narrative consistency because it would imply that in PR branch, he didn't learn anything else, whereas in V&A he knew about the labo and thus had Kagari sent as a mole, instead of capturing them at the precise timing instead. Hence the very inconsistent course of action with that kind of premise.
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Old 2018-05-26, 12:08   Link #62
Dengar
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...I don't see any problem. I mean if the information he gets from Kagari is different, then the actions resulting from this might change too.


It's like, suppose you were just traveling around. And you're at a crossroads. You have an equal chance of going left or right. But your decision is influenced by a phone call you get from the future.
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Old 2018-05-26, 14:06   Link #63
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If you don't see any problem wiht that, that's good for you I guess. I personally tried to see a logical reasoning behind it, but unfortunately, if a plot part needs speculations and lots of "if" to connect the dots, then it isn't exactly good writing and the scenarists failed to address all points they have brought themselves by making 2 very different branch that don't even start with the same premise because of some circular interaction.

I believe I brought fair arguments when it comes to character consistency in that situation, and I've seen no conclusive evidence the branching part is based on "definite different information". A "if" doesn't cut it.
So yeah, just agree to disagree because it was never my intention to convince you anyway.
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Old 2018-05-26, 15:55   Link #64
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So... You don't think that different information can lead a man to take different actions?


I don't get it. First you're causing me to think about things I never bothered to think about since I never thought it was all that important. So I come up with a plausible explanation that is most definitely a possibility, you're just like "Well I never intended to convince you anyway.".


Like what have I been doing all this unnecessary thinking for?

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Old 2018-05-26, 16:35   Link #65
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You asked me why I found this plot part not consistent, and I pretty much gave you my reasons with the arguments. All you have provided thus far is the "butterfly effect" argument with the assumption information was different, but you didn't provide evidence regarding that part and even called my argument "long blurbs" without addressing any of them. The butterfly effect would only work with a deliberate change or something with a "probability" to occur. And I don't see how there is a probability involved in the information Leskinen has put in her brain.

As I said, you used a lot of "if", but the problem is that you didn't provide evidence the information was different.
The game itself confirmed that Kagari already heard the "voice of god" in both branches, meaning that future Leskinen brainwashed her regardless of the world line. In both cases, the "voice of god" made her rogue against Suzuha because it told her to "protect the world", hence why she didn't want Suzuha to meddle with the past.
That part is consistent, and I don't see where information Leskinen has found in Kagari's brain could be different between both world lines.

In a nutshell:
My initial assertion is like this: Future Leskinen deliberately brainwashed kid kagari so he could give information to himself and actually have a time traveler at his disposal, which would be a perfect sample for him.

Evidence I've noted: The voice Kagari kept hearing always mention about protecting the world and her mother, meaning Leskinen knew about FG lab plans (which explains why he was screwing Suzuha's valkyrie unit with brainwashing in 2036).
Kagari, regardless of the branch, always goes rogue against Suzuha in 1998, and is always "sheltered" by Leskinen (proved by RMG and V&A).

My conclusion: Leskinen pretty much made sure he would have information from the future so the future won't be changed (meaning that his actions in 2010 would maintain the WW3 events). And that's exactly why I mentionned characterization as the fundation of my argument: Leskinen, both present and future versions, had a very precise objective and it is consistent in both routes. And this is the very reason why I disagree on the assumption the "information" was different. If anything, if it is, you are actually proving the scenarists screwed up with Leskinen characterization.
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Old 2018-05-26, 16:49   Link #66
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The only information past Leskinen could receive from Kagari would be information that future Leskinen actually has. The kind of information future Leskinen obtains directly depends on Okarin's interaction with Amadeus.

It's not just some vague idea like saying "the butterfly effect" without it having any meaning. There is cause and effect which spirals into more radical differences as time passes. And a lot of time passes between Okarin's interaction with Amadeus, and Kagari becoming Mayushii's daughter.

And what's wrong with saying "if"? After all, "if" A, then inevitably B. Since we have B (which is an observable and irrefutable fact), then A must have happened in some shape or form. It's not that hard.

As for evidence? Well you're asking a lot here. I mean you're pretty much asking for details that the writer left out because he didn't think it'd be all that important because for certain things to be possible, certain other things have to have happened first. Explaining the details of such things is a waste of time if all that matters is the result.

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Old 2018-05-26, 17:15   Link #67
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This is where I disagree because regardless how much Okarin interacts with Amadeus, the crucial problem with that assertion is that future Leskinen is consistently using Kagari as a medium for information for himself.
This means that regardless of the information he got from Okarin's interactions with Amadeus in the present, his future self knows the following facts:
1) Kagari will be a time traveler and will be sent back to 1998
2) She has a relationship with the lab members considering they are known for working on the time machine in the future, as such Leskinen had to know about her connection, regardless of the branch, otherwise, him brainwashing Kagari and purposedly telling her to protect her mom (even before she is adopted by Mayuri) would be the most unlikely coincidence in sg franchise.

This lead to a fundamental issue: Future Leskinen know how it will play out regarding Kagari going back in time.
Because how time travel works in Steins Gate, there isn't any "initial timeline without Kagari" for Leskinen. Therefore, leskinen will always know about Okarin being involved with the time machine at some point.

And that's why it doesn't make much sense for him not to send Kagari as a mole in the PR branch too, because regardless of the information sample, there is 1 common piece of information: that Okarin will be in contact with a time traveler.
That's why the way it is portrayed in the game doesn't feel satisfying whatsoever, because it plainly relies on the result without caring about the cause, which was a very delicate subject in the original sg.
In 0, this glossed too often (no explanation why Russia isn't first in the race in the PR branch even though stratfo involvement has nothing to do with them etc), hence why all this portion is pretty weak in my perspective, leading to characterization inconsistency. That's why I said there are too much "if": the concept of causation was always present in the franchise, and different results or "dice rolls" are fine as long you have the actual cause being there. Leaving them aside and having the story unfolding mainly with the "effect" with vaguely the cause (or sometimes the cause entirely absent) is pretty much a flaw in my books.

That's also why I mentioned it wasn't my intention to convince you, because that's something pretty much subjective: either you are fine with the details left vague or you aren't.
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Old 2018-05-26, 17:33   Link #68
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Then it doesn't make sense for him to send Kagari as a spy in V&A either. In fact it is backwards: Okarin interacts with Amadeus way more often in V&A, which is precisely the branch where Kagari is sent as a spy. After all, V&A branch is the world line where he didn't turn off his phone and still interact with Amadeus even after he wanted to stop being a tester. In comparison, in PR, he deliberately ignore her a lot of times, except when he needs her advice regarding missing persons.
If your argument is that "it is pointless to send Kagari if Amadeus acts as a spy", then logically, Kagari should have been sent as a spy in PR, not in V&A.
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Old 2018-05-26, 17:34   Link #69
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What about information other than those two things? What about information about the time machine? Kurisu's thesis on time travel? Kurisu's knowledge on memory implantation, for that matter? Remember, the reason they put Kurisu's memories into Kagari in the first place was in an effort to get at the information in Kurisu's brain. Maybe in the "true" route, this was less of a priority so they sought to use her as a mole instead.
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Old 2018-05-26, 17:37   Link #70
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This only occurs when the Amadeus project is shut down, which only happens after the real Kurisu from the Alpha world line has sent the dmail that leaked Amadeus existence to the external world.
In the "normal PR" branch, Kagari is "just" a guinea pig, but she didn't get Kurisu's memories implanted in her brain. This is true for early part of PR, AND end part of PR. In PR, it is even explained she was supposed to have memories implanted in her, but they didn't go through the full patient lists before her, hence why she was fine.

And no, the memory implanting technology was already at Leskinen disposal. In fact, that thing has to be their own to begin with, otherwise all the memory shenanigans wouldn't even have started in PR.
In fact, Maho confirmed they already knew that theory, but the problem was that "it doesn't matter if you get memories implanted in your brain if you can't use them", which is mostly a compatibility issue (hence why Reyers really wanted Kagari because tests demonstrated she is highly compatible with Kurisu).
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Old 2018-05-26, 17:43   Link #71
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I just named the first few things that came to mind. The point is that something happened to make things take a different turn. I don't actually know what this something is, or should I have to. It has no relevance to the present narrative.

I explained when these differences could have been caused. I'm not clairvoyant. I don't know what it actually was. I don't even think the writer knows. Because I think the writer didn't care. Because it wasn't relevant.


Exchanges with Amadeus were monitored by Leskinen, who will later program a young Kagari, who will be sent to the past, and give information to past Leskinen.
It's not inconceivable that something in these exchanges (or a lack of such exchanges) would subtly (or not so subtly, see the Russian invasion chapter) change events.

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Old 2018-05-26, 21:17   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
She has a relationship with the lab members considering they are known for working on the time machine in the future, as such Leskinen had to know about her connection, regardless of the branch, otherwise, him brainwashing Kagari and purposedly telling her to protect her mom (even before she is adopted by Mayuri) would be the most unlikely coincidence in sg franchise.
cmiiw, but wasn't there a scene in the future where Kagari was in a medical facility for quite a while AFTER she and Mayuri know each other? I thought Kagari was brainwashed during this period, so it isn't really a coincidence that Leskinen brainwashed her that way.
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Old 2018-05-26, 21:55   Link #73
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I don't even think the writer knows. Because I think the writer didn't care. Because it wasn't relevant.
You've just proved exactly my point: that specific part of 0 wasn't handled well, which lead to apprehension to everything that pertain that narrative direction. When a story involves canned worm stuff like time travel, you gotta be sure you aren't screwing this for sake of narrative consistency, which they did well in og sg, but not that much in 0. This doesn't mean 0 was bad, far from it. But, in -my opinion- all that stuff about Kagari posing as Yuki was badly implemented.

And that's why I mentioned it was even pointless to keep going on considering you think it is irrelevant, whereas I believe it is a narrative flaw, especially when you compare with the narrative structure of the franchise as a whole. With argument like "there has to be something that explains that stuff, but the author didn't bother explaining, so it means it is irrelevant", you can explain nearly every bad writing stuff in any fiction. This is why I don't buy it unless evidence is presented, that's all. Now let's leave it at that.
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
cmiiw, but wasn't there a scene in the future where Kagari was in a medical facility for quite a while AFTER she and Mayuri know each other? I thought Kagari was brainwashed during this period, so it isn't really a coincidence that Leskinen brainwashed her that way.
That's what I implied yes: there is no way Leskinen did it blindly and considering what happened in PR and V&A, the peacekeepers force know about the FG lab members, so Leskinen definitely knew about them too thus the brainwashing in advance, and it is very likely why that doctor told Mayuri they have to keep Kagari for 6 months even if her injuries were healed.
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Old 2018-05-26, 22:26   Link #74
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Now that I think about it, how did the Russian invasion shift happen and why did it go back? Has the Russian already completed the time machine by the time Okarin was having that Christmas Party? If so, then did the shift back happen because Okarin met with Amadeus thus giving Stratfo the clue needed to "correct" the worldline back? Wait, that doesn't make sense. Hm...Oh, Stratfo already know how to turn it back, it just so happens they did it when Okarin was meeting with Amadeus again?
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Old 2018-05-27, 05:51   Link #75
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No, it was the US army.
Simply put, it is similar to the world line shift with SERN getting information from Okarin when he picked up Amadeus' call in Orbital Eclipse: the US officer showed him Amadeus app, and Okarin immediately recognized her.

The moment he reacted that way, the army definitely took him in custody, got information in some way or another and "fixed" the world line.
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Old 2018-05-27, 06:33   Link #76
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So the shift back WAS because of one Okarin's actions then? Then it really was the Russian that triggered the shift in the first place? Or was that something that was influenced by Okarin's action as well? When I checked again just prior to that shift the party was focused on the orgel that sang the recursive song.
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Old 2018-05-27, 06:53   Link #77
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The Russians got the upper hand and tested it before everyone else, which lead to that 1 month in USSR hell. This is consistent since they got Nakabachi's paper which was some sort of copy of Kurisu's time machine theory.

It isn't really explained how Stratfo or DURPA could prevent that in the PR branch, since Leskinen has less information this time around. I assume this change is caused by Leskinen who went ahead with the Kagari Kurisu plan, which pretty much messed the future and thus retroactively foiled the Russians in some way.
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Old 2018-05-27, 09:09   Link #78
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You've just proved exactly my point: that specific part of 0 wasn't handled well, which lead to apprehension to everything that pertain that narrative direction. When a story involves canned worm stuff like time travel, you gotta be sure you aren't screwing this for sake of narrative consistency, which they did well in og sg, but not that much in 0. This doesn't mean 0 was bad, far from it. But, in -my opinion- all that stuff about Kagari posing as Yuki was badly implemented.

And that's why I mentioned it was even pointless to keep going on considering you think it is irrelevant, whereas I believe it is a narrative flaw, especially when you compare with the narrative structure of the franchise as a whole. With argument like "there has to be something that explains that stuff, but the author didn't bother explaining, so it means it is irrelevant", you can explain nearly every bad writing stuff in any fiction. This is why I don't buy it unless evidence is presented, that's all. Now let's leave it at that.

That's what I implied yes: there is no way Leskinen did it blindly and considering what happened in PR and V&A, the peacekeepers force know about the FG lab members, so Leskinen definitely knew about them too thus the brainwashing in advance, and it is very likely why that doctor told Mayuri they have to keep Kagari for 6 months even if her injuries were healed.
If there is a narrative flaw then explain to me why it is a flaw. Why is it this important that you understand every irrelevant detail about the cause when all that matters to the narrative is the result?

How does the fact that you don't know what happened magically make it so that nothing has happened, despite evidence to the contrary?
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Old 2018-05-27, 09:25   Link #79
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This is the last time I'm repeating myself: it is a flaw since the story is basing on time travel and world line shift concepts, both of which work extremely closely to the concept of causality.

When a story involves that kind of stuff, the author(s) must be sure they don't step out of their bonds and constraints of such kind of stories.
And this is a great flaw in 0 because showing the result without the cause OR elements that would give a natural conclusion ot it doesn't cut at all, and as I said, there is -no evidence- about anything that was different. The AFTERMATH (as in, the fact the branches are different) is different, but the cause is NOT demonstrated. You don't create a consequence without its cause in the narrative, but the cause doesn't have to be spelled thoroughly -as long there are hints and evidence explaining what was the case-. And the flaw itself is the fact that there is no hint or evidence that point out the existence of that cause.
The game has always provided the cause and the consequence in tandem, although more often in a more or less subtile fashion (like the Russian causing the shift or Kurisu sending back Okarin in the beta world line). But in THAT specific plot part, with Leskinen changing his plans, there is none of that.

The fact you say "it is irrelevant" puts more emphasis to the issue at hand: the scenarists didn't give much thought about that plot point, and just rolled on with an absent plot device. And I've brought issues with that, hence the lack of evidence is detrimental for the narration because the only possibilities at hand are contradictory with the established facts and characterization in 0.
You are letting that slide by using a lopsided logic: "there is a result, so there is a cause, so it is irrelevant". Except when you dig further and you see that all possible causes are contradictory, this puts a severe issue in term of narrative consistency.

I've provided arguments and evidence of issues with the possible cause, and you have yet provided evidence that "there is a cause that explains everything correctly", which is normal since the author(s) themselves didn't bother going that in the first place. Using the argument that "there has to be, but the author didn't think of anything" just plainly proves the scenarist did a poor job at tying everything together.
This is going in circles, so I will cut this debate for good: you are basing all your logic on something extremely personal as "I say it isn't relevant to the current narrative, so I don't care", even though I did expose all the contradictory elements, as I care about general plot consistency when a story like that unfold itself. It is even more dubious to go any further since both sides concluded there is something missing and the fact it is missing resonates differently for both parties.
At this point, it isn't even a debate, it is 2 parallels opinions based on completely different appreciation of a given plot part. As such, there is no need to even discuss any further, especially it is about opinions. That's the very reason why I said multiple times I didn't intend to convince you, and I believe I explained pretty thoroughly my opinion on that matter. Likewise I never questioned your appreciation that "it isn't a problem". So it is about time to call it quit.
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Old 2018-05-27, 23:39   Link #80
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Whoa! this is an interesting change. Look like anime will spend longer time in Alpha world.
Hopefully, anime will use this to properly explain how did the message that Kurisu send changed the worldline back to Beta.

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

If they can do this, I expect that anime might spend more time in "future" part in PR route, maybe to explain something like how can okabe timeleap through the time he was captured. (They can even give a hint of who brainwashed Kagari while they are at it.)
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