Nisemonogatari - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The consensus for the "unsatisfied party" with this episode is as follow: this episode -does not contribute to the main plot-, in a very dubious fashion to boot.
Not all scenes should, since you have your casual scenes and whatnot. However, we are talking about a -full- episode of a 11 episodes series. If you factor the context, there is no way everyone would be satisfied with this weird directing choice altogether.
The only "major" thing we learned in this episode is Karen's admiration for Suruga and... that's basically it. Which means that we could pretty well obliterate that episode from the series, and the continuity and plot wouldn't be hurt to the slightest, or at worst, just barely.

My personal opinion is that: I honestly laughed a bit how silly/exaggerated the scene was, but quickly gone baffled how long it took and how the premise took the whole episode. Yes, the toothbrushing scene is 3-4 minutes, but the leadup and the other points totalized -20 minutes-.
Really, the "incest" part is really not the worst part of it. I personally would react the same if it was any of the female character, perhaps a bit less with hitagi since it would be "less alienating" since she is Koyomi's girlfriend after all.

But seriously, it is starting to be quite annoying to see comments alienating people stance by false pretense of satirical outrage, while -several- traits of the episode made it quite questionable, in a directing perspective.
Fanservice by itself wouldn't cause so much ruckus, within different circumstances, so branding people as "how could they follow this series so far" is moot and impertinent.

Yea, I think it's a bit dishonest to bottle up this criticism to moral outrage. There's a bit more to this, since well I know some of the people that don't like this episode sometimes enjoy ecchi, and occasionally stuff way more explicit then the stuff being shown here.

I can't speak for anyone, but, I liked Yosuga no Sora, and I'm sure that would have sparked more "moral panic" than this. I mean, I've watched two series that involve someone fucking their sister(s) in explicit fashion and I didn't complain... too much. I just watched a rather good hentai the day before this episode that I rated 8/10 on MAL and I probably can't discuss it any more here. I watched Boku wa Tomadachi mainly to see the characters bend over. This season, I'm not watching Inu x Boku SS for the plot. Hell, I was even looking forward to Karen fanservice because I find her one of the hotter characters in the series. But sometimes it is how it is served.

Take the episode with Shinobu. I barely considered that episode fanservice at all. It was sensual, but most importantly it felt natural, and that was just 2 naked people in a bath all episode. But only for a few moments I felt it was gratuitous because I was too busy worrying about other stuff, like the dialogue and how awesome Shinobu was.

I also didn't even have a problem with the last Karen fanservice episode that involved him rubbing her down and Araragi walking around with only a towel. That was odd, but still I didn't find it too ridiculous anyways. I think it displayed their closeness a lot better than this episode which just seemed to focus too much on tossing in naughty shots of Karen.

Anyhow, there's a problem when you're looking for hot stuff but just find this... and it's not like Shaft has the best visuals anyways so the fanservice already takes a hit.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

...Anyhow, there's a problem when you're looking for hot stuff but just find this... and it's not like Shaft has the best visuals anyways so the fanservice already takes a hit.

I know you are referring specifically to detailed fanservice visuals, but I just want to say that I personally feel that in general terms Shaft does have the "best visuals." If I want to watch a show for the visual aspect of it, I will choose a Shaft show. It's not a matter of detail, for sure, or of detailed motion (although there was plenty of that here), but Shinbou simply has the eye and knows how to produce what I regard as actual Art.

[Dop]

Oh... my..... GOD!!

I think I need a cold shower now. That scene (and you know which one I mean) was just erotic.
OK, OK, it may have been bad and wrong, but still, it was erotic.

More than that, it showed you can do erotic without resorting to tits and arse, which is a lesson so many other anime series could do with learning.

Also, now the combination of Nisoisin and Shinbo have introduced the anime-viewing world to the concept of 'tooth-brushing fetish', which is a phrase I DARE NOT GOOGLE!!!

Free-ow. I'm going to the pub now. I need a drink, or several!

[speedyexpress48]

Art? Yes. But in terms of "hotness" or "cuteness"? Don't get me wrong, even tho I like all the character's looks, I'll admit they are not the best at this aspect. Thinking about it, maybe more random fanservice here and there would be better than one straight fanservice episode, but I still greatly enjoyed it. Just my opinion, nothing less, nothing more.

Anyways, we can all agree that regardless of what's happening here...

[00Coyote]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The consensus for the "unsatisfied party" with this episode is as follow: this episode -does not contribute to the main plot-, in a very dubious fashion to boot.
Not all scenes should, since you have your casual scenes and whatnot. However, we are talking about a -full- episode of a 11 episodes series. If you factor the context, there is no way everyone would be satisfied with this weird directing choice altogether.
The only "major" thing we learned in this episode is Karen's admiration for Suruga and... that's basically it. Which means that we could pretty well obliterate that episode from the series, and the continuity and plot wouldn't be hurt to the slightest, or at worst, just barely.

I've bolded a statement that I keep seeing, in one form or another, over and over again.

"It isn't adding to the plot." "Nothing happened." "The plot is not moving." "Pointless."

I don't understand this sentiment, it baffles me, strikes me as strange. How can one think this after really watching Bakemonogatari, and 8 episodes of Nisemonogatari?

The plot for these stories, the whole motivation behind everything is: Araragi being put in odd situations with various female cast members, and *specifically* the conversations that those situations generate. That is the whole point, aim, crux, focus, the very reason for existence of this series.

It's never been about what is happening, it is about the conversations and the interactions the characters are having. There's a scant framework of motivation to make somewhat plausible why they are having the conversation, the thing other shows would call plot. In this story, it's just there to facilitate the conversations.

The plot is the characters talking, I don't know if it can be put simpler.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I know you are referring specifically to detailed fanservice visuals, but I just want to say that I personally feel that in general terms Shaft does have the "best visuals." If I want to watch a show for the visual aspect of it, I will choose a Shaft show. It's not a matter of detail, for sure, or of detailed motion (although there was plenty of that here), but Shinbou simply has the eye and knows how to produce what I regard as actual Art.

I totally agree, artistically Nise- is extremely gratifying (designs, allocation of animation, background art, acting, pacing of the dialogue), character development mixes in more naturally with the plot and what most refer as fan-service.

[zarqu]

And we are slowly coming full circle with what is a staple in Monogatari threads: plot vs. no plot, character interactions vs. plot moving, substance vs. no substance at all (since nothing is happening!), etc.

I think relentlessflame/00Coyote pretty much nailed it above, as far as I'm concerned.

[speedyexpress48]

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't think Bake had too much of a plot to begin with. It was a bunch of the weird and shocking tied together loosely into one series in my opinion.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by 00Coyote

The plot is the characters talking, I don't know if it can be put simpler.

This is exactly the big picture and problem with this episode: the talking itself is basically moot and serve nothing in the "heroine issue" or her characterization nor actual interaction with Koyomi.

Surely, the monogatari series is (in)famous for its talking head syndrome with gritty/clever themes, characters quirks and so forth. However, it isn't the same in this episode: what we got here? an erotic centred scene based on an extravagant (if not new age?) fetish. Episode 8 basically feels extremely disjointed, as Karen "issue" is already fixed and she could, at most, be a support characters or add some flavor, the same as how every other characters such like Mayoi and Suruga were doing.

Claiming it is all about character talk in this very episode is dubious at best: the circumstances and visuals were the very first striking part of this episode, and frankly, revolving 20 minutes over 1 single game for simply having "Karen meeting Suruga" is beyond something I really expect to be "a clever directing choice" for a series that has only 11 episodes.

Really, it seems you miss completely the point of the problem as it is presented: I don't recall outrage with Hitagi sexy poses at the start of Nise, nor people cried "BOO INCEST" when Koyomi kissed Karen whatsoever.

Again, if fanservice itself was a single moment without being overly dominant for a full episode, theren't wouldn't have that much negative response. However, dedicating a full episode for that, with a very random premise and laid bare script? Hell no. Heck, Archon example is surely effective: Shinobu's showtime has a huge share of fanservice, yet the content and essence is radically different and the response wasn't that much negative.

There is a drastic difference here, period.
Oh well, third time I expose in a different fashion the problem I see in this episode, while other didn't feel that much of an outrage. Pressing the point will be just even more paraphrasing, so I will just end with that.

[zarqu]

The episode is indeed what it is: They spent an entire episode telling us that Koyomi and Karen want to fuck eachother.

Why? Well. Paraphrasing relentlessflame: Because they can.

[joshuafaramir]

This episode was enjoyable to me and that's all that matters. If I want to watch/read a story with some plot, I'd read actual novels like ASOIAF, WoT, LOTR or Dune. This is a lightnovel for pete's sake. It deserves my 10 cookies because it did what it was supposed to do. Entertain the audience (me).

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by zarqu

The episode is indeed what it is: They spent an entire episode telling us that why Koyomi and Karen want to fuck eachother.

Fixed it for you

[zarqu]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Fixed it for you

Thanks! Pretty much that.

[00Coyote]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

This is exactly the big picture and problem with this episode: the talking itself is basically moot and serve nothing in the "heroine issue" or her characterization nor actual interaction with Koyomi.

*snip*

Claiming it is all about character talk in this very episode is dubious at best: the circumstances and visuals were the very first striking part of this episode, and frankly, revolving 20 minutes over 1 single game for simply having "Karen meeting Suruga" is beyond something I really expect to be "a clever directing choice" for a series that has only 11 episodes.

*good stuff but snipped for brevity*

There is a drastic difference here, period.

I think you misunderstood me.

It's not about the characters talking. (to advance the plot)
It's about the characters talking. (to advance the relationships)

Araragi and Hitagi talking way back in episode 2 of Bakemonogatari, had nothing to to with advancing the 'plot' of her being cured of the weight crab. It was there to advance the relationship between the two.

Araragi and Hitagi talking all through the snail arc had very little to do with advancing the 'plot' of getting Hachikuji home. It was there to advance the relationship between the two.

Araragi and Shinobu talking in the bathtub have very little to do with advancing the 'plot' of helping Karen. It was there to advance the relationship between the two.

Araragi and Karen talking before the toothbrush scene, and the whole game had very little to do with Karen meeting Suruga. It was there to advance the relationship between the two. (In a somewhat disturbing direction)

Over and over you see Araragi and someone talking, sometimes under the pretense of advancing the 'plot' many times in pointless conversation. It's not about using conversation to Help X, Solve Y or Find Z, the conversations are used to advance the relationships, and if the relationships can be advanced without moving the 'plot' Nisio Isin gleefully lets the 'plot' rot while he lets the characters go on with their banter.

That is what i meant by "The plot is the characters talking."

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by 00Coyote

I think you misunderstood me.

It's not about the characters talking. (to advance the plot)
It's about the characters talking. (to advance the relationships)

I understood both actually, and I mentioned it:

This is exactly the big picture and problem with this episode: the talking itself is basically moot and serve nothing in the "heroine issue" or her characterization nor actual interaction with Koyomi.

And in case I might be misunderstood again: I don't consider these dialogues anything past the gag/sexual innuendo level. Surely a good deal of people can appreciate that though. I, for one, didn't feel that much of "interaction" past the fanservice ploy / silliness amusement. Granted, if people are fine with that, that's cool. That's just something I'm not convinced due to the points explained above, and that's not because "I didn't get the joke".

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Oh well, third time I expose in a different fashion the problem I see in this episode, while other didn't feel that much of an outrage.

Basically, this is the poster-child example of what a difference perspective makes. The issue isn't what the problem is, but why or whether it even is a problem in the first place. When people can't understand someone else's perspective, they often try to reframe it or rationalize it by proposing another explanation/motivation that would make sense to them. For example, I think it's easy for people to imagine that people are so upset by incest or fanservice that "that must be" why their opinion of the episode is tainted. If you do that, it allows you to dismiss that opinion and say "oh they're just biased" (/ignorant/stupid/misinformed/silly/wrong/etc.). Because the alternative is understanding that two totally reasonable people with rational judgement can see the very same thing from two different perspectives and both be absolutely right!

For my part, I can say that I think everything you had to say about the episode makes sense and doesn't seem unreasonable. But I can also say that none of the aspects that troubled you had any impact whatsoever on my enjoyment of the episode. And so, even though we watched the same episode and had largely opposite reactions, we're both right. Vive la différence!

(Man a lot of forum arguments would end more quickly and peacefully if people could remember this principle... )

[Sol Falling]

[zarqu]

That track goes with anything! The animation also syncs nicely. A true masterpiece!

edit: Lol. Gotta love the video recommendations on that one!

[Grey]

What. This just. This is....

That toothbrush scene felt long. 10-15 minutes long.

This whole episode. It felt like I opened an episode of Death Note and the whole thing was Yagami Light eating potato chips for 30 minutes.

It felt like watching episode 2 of Nisemonogatari and getting thirty minutes of Koyomi and Nadeko playing twister.

This was one weird episode.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

[youtube video]

I'm not usually one for random Youtube videos (this one is related at least), but somehow this video manages to match or exceed the same WTF reaction generated by the episode, but in 1:45. The anticipation for the "drop" was well done. Props to the editor.