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Old 2013-05-14, 00:54   Link #28161
Sumeragi
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I'll simply say in my view they deserve it for playing with fire like that. In fact, I consider any society that lets such things happen as pathetic and downfallen. There are certainly times when abortion is needed, but doing it on a pregnancy that starts from "having fun" without any additional circumstances should never be such a case.

That is my position, and no amount of "persuasion" will change it.
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Old 2013-05-14, 00:58   Link #28162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Punish not only the doctor but the mothers. Period.
Punish them for what? For being poor, undereducated and desperate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Wouldn't make the most sense to have that arguement be between women? Since that seems to be the group most effected by such debates. The men don't aways sit back and do nothing, but it effects them the least....physically anyway.
Well, of course, but you see the actual pro-life platform doesn't care about life, since pro-lifers are also pro-death penalty almost one hundred percent of the time. The conversation isn't happening between women because the goal of banning abortion has nothing to do with women's reproductive health.

It has everything to do with diminishing the power and influence of women, by saddling them with children at a young age, keeping them "barefoot and pregnant" and get in the kitchen and make me a sammich.

Pretty much every woman I know--including myself--is pro-choice. The only pro-life women I know are the cowed, browbeaten, doormat Stockholm Syndrome religious "good little wifey" types.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I'll simply say in my view they deserve it for playing with fire like that. In fact, I consider any society that lets such things happen as pathetic and downfallen. There are certainly times when abortion is needed, but doing it on a pregnancy that starts from "having fun" without any additional circumstances should never be such a case.

That is my position, and no amount of "persuasion" will change it.
I'm sorry but your position strikes me as more than a little sick and demented. You really want to doom a child to a horrible life as a "take that" at her or his irresponsible mother?
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Old 2013-05-14, 01:01   Link #28163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I'll simply say in my view they deserve it for playing with fire like that. In fact, I consider any society that lets such things happen as pathetic and downfallen. There are certainly times when abortion is needed, but doing it on a pregnancy that starts from "having fun" without any additional circumstances should never be such a case.

That is my position, and no amount of "persuasion" will change it.
Three words : Use contraceptives, or do it with somone of the same gender.
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Old 2013-05-14, 01:03   Link #28164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I'm sorry but your position strikes me as more than a little sick and demented. You really want to doom a child to a horrible life as a "take that" at her or his irresponsible mother?
Society has the responsibility to take care of such children. The fact that society itself abdicated that responsibility is in itself telling.
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Old 2013-05-14, 01:04   Link #28165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Wouldn't make the most sense to have that arguement be between women? Since that seems to be the group most effected by such debates. The men don't aways sit back and do nothing, but it effects them the least....physically anyway.
This is one of the biggest why, despite me being against abortion, I do not condemn abortion. I feel like men really should have little say as it doesn't effect us much as women.
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Three words : Use contraceptives, or do it with somone of the same gender.
Or use many other options.
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Old 2013-05-14, 01:06   Link #28166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Society has the responsibility to take care of such children. The fact that society itself abdicated that responsibility is in itself telling.
Unfortunately, in fast paced societies, such children are seen as deadweight and are often left to fend for themselves.

Even more unfortunate, "community service" lines are mostly political movements for the ruling party to shore up on bleeding heart votes.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-05-14, 01:08   Link #28167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Society has the responsibility to take care of such children. The fact that society itself abdicated that responsibility is in itself telling.
Irrelevant. This is the world we live in; we cannot magically transform it into something else.

If a teen gives birth in America, there is an extremely high likelihood that baby will have a poor life. They have a much higher chance than normal to wind up a criminal, which is a drain on the nation's resources in more ways than one.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need abortions, because nobody would ever have "accidental babies" and nobody would ever over-reproduce and populations would always stay within our ability to maintain them.

This is not a perfect world.
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Old 2013-05-14, 01:08   Link #28168
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People who want abortions will get abortions. The only difference is if they get it from a clinic or a back alley.

The fundamental problem isn't abortions. But no one likes to face fundamental problems when there're easier targets.
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Old 2013-05-14, 01:12   Link #28169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Irrelevant. This is the world we live in; we cannot magically transform it into something else.

If a teen gives birth in America, there is an extremely high likelihood that baby will have a poor life. They have a much higher chance than normal to wind up a criminal, which is a drain on the nation's resources in more ways than one.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need abortions, because nobody would ever have "accidental babies" and nobody would ever over-reproduce and populations would always stay within our ability to maintain them.

This is not a perfect world.
It's relevant, since abortion does the same thing: it "magically" transform society into a place where irresponsible deeds are in fact overlooked. The fact that people focus only on the abortion issue means they're also contributing to the irresponsibility of society.

That's partly why I'm cynical: Almost every human being is a hypocrite, since they avoid the core issue and fool around with the fringes.
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Old 2013-05-14, 01:14   Link #28170
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Well then abortion should be on the premise of physical and mental capability. And foetus showing signs of disability and handicap should be aborted to prevent resource wastage in society.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-05-14, 01:17   Link #28171
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It's clear we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic.
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Old 2013-05-14, 01:17   Link #28172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Well then abortion should be on the premise of physical and mental capability. And foetus showing signs of disability and handicap should be aborted to prevent resource wastage in society.

That could be logical. It could also be eugenics.
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Old 2013-05-14, 01:18   Link #28173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
It's clear we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic.
Sure. Just know I believe in striking at the core instead of the general nibbling at the fringe, and that what you know isn't everything:

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The only pro-life women I know are the cowed, browbeaten, doormat Stockholm Syndrome religious "good little wifey" types.
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Old 2013-05-14, 01:21   Link #28174
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That's just a pipe dream, though. Humanity will never be perfect. We will never have a flawless utopia. Our world will never stop being fucked up.

My view is of the realist, how to deal with the problems that exist in the world that exists, rather than attempting to set unachievable goals and then condemn people for being unable to meet your impossible standards.

Humanity is a fucked-up species and we'll never be anything but.
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Old 2013-05-14, 01:24   Link #28175
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The US can always use that "absurdly inflated military budget", don't you think?
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Old 2013-05-14, 02:02   Link #28176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The US can always use that "absurdly inflated military budget", don't you think?
Don't I wish.
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Old 2013-05-14, 02:13   Link #28177
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what is flawless utopia anyway. you do what you want without interference?
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Old 2013-05-14, 02:15   Link #28178
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No, because Utopia is defined as a perfect society, not society where every desire of an individual is served.

Meaning, Utopia need not necessarily be an ideal environment for all individual, it just needs to be perfect as a society.
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Old 2013-05-14, 02:18   Link #28179
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
No, because Utopia is defined as a perfect society, not society where every desire of an individual is served.

Meaning, Utopia need not necessarily be an ideal environment for all individual, it just needs to be perfect as a society.
Utopias are impossible to maintain.

Either resources run out due to greed, or curiosity due to boredom fuels unrest.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-05-14, 02:43   Link #28180
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The only argument I don't accept. That is just irresponsibility.

Heck, most of the time abortion is done due to irresponsible behavior. I can't really get why people are so willing to overlook that.
That bolded line is subjective fantasy with no stats to back it up.

Sorry, Sumeragi, but rather than striking at the core, that bolded part tells me you are missing the entire page. Try that with a bunch of medical people around and see if you can get out of the room without being laughed out or scalped.

Yeah, it'd be nice if we didn't need abortions. It would be nice if all the other paths were available. It'd also be nice to have pink unicorns as part of a perfect society but the infrastructure isn't there so we'll punish those least able to affect change.

I'll stand by my assertion that in most cases, peeling the superficial away and all that seems to be left is the notion that people should be punished for having sex without intent to procreate.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2013-05-14 at 02:46. Reason: I'm standing by a pharmacist (my wife) who'd like to reach into the screen and shake the daylights out of someone.
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