2012-07-15, 13:34 | Link #29641 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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It's in KnownNoMore's 2nd video. Start at 1:32:48.
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2012-07-15, 14:12 | Link #29642 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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I'd say it's illogical that ERIKA never brings it up again, but then, I find it somewhat illogical that Erika was stumped by it, too. 'Cause that was honestly one of the ... two or three riddles I was able to see an obvious solution for before the scene was even over. "Shkanon delivered the letter / people lied" just really seems to be the way to go. |
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2012-07-15, 17:15 | Link #29644 | |
Endless Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Though I guess he could have saw Kinzo's corpse there for whatever reason. Last edited by Thunder Book; 2012-07-15 at 17:26. |
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2012-07-15, 17:42 | Link #29645 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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...well anyway, I watched his bit of video concerning the knock/letter/phone call, and ... well, it's really displeasingly convoluted. And I say that from my stance that "Ryukishi intentionally made EP5 broken/non-sensical to make a point". The red clearly states that you cannot be in the mansion and produce a knock. And as far as the pieces are concerned, there's no restriction on George going to the mansion at actual midnight ... BUT, we know via red that at actual midnight, 24:00, George has to be in the Guesthouse, and Natsuhi / Krauss / Genji have to be in the 2nd floor corridor. His theory says George went to the mansion after midnight to work with these, but this leaves a very, very small window of time for him to do A LOT of stuff. And this possibly creates dissonance between when Erika reported leaving the cousins, and when she actually did. It's just so ... much. True. And I'm not trying to live in the "There was no detective, IT WAS ALL LIES" camp. But a mysterious letter and knock (which are never confirmed) appeared under dubious circumstances, with a bunch of restrictive lines of red in a room where at least WE know there's no reliably objective viewpoint. Combined with the general undertone of conspiracy that seems to be in EP5, it's not unreasonable to put that scene under some scrutiny, I think. |
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2012-07-15, 17:59 | Link #29646 |
Endless Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
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I get what you're saying, and am not disagreeing that the scene needs scrutiny, but if the knock scene really didn't happen at all, that just seems so...underhanded of Ryu07 to me.
If the letter/knock scene didn't really happen, and is just a troll, then why waste our time with it in the story? |
2012-07-15, 18:14 | Link #29647 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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That knock never happened and a letter was never found there. Saying that something didn't happen in an incident does in no way contradict that the incident didn't happen at all.
You got any red to disprove that blue truth? Or is it effective? I mean it would be nothing new. The chapel door in EP2 was not locked when Rosa opened it. |
2012-07-15, 18:28 | Link #29649 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Basically, we had that giant flurry of red truths, without a single one confirming that anything had happened, that a letter had even actually arrived, that a knock was actually heard. It's a lesson of sorts, one that you can use when re-examining certain earlier riddles. Also, I'd say the scene implies that Shannon/Kanon pretty openly just ... present themselves at the conference and deliver the letter, or something along those lines. |
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2012-07-15, 23:35 | Link #29651 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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My only issue with the while thing being a lie is that I thought Lamda through out some red about "everyone identifying the knock correctly", though if they never identified it at all I guess that is ok... I'd be more suspicious of the clock too, I mean, when have we ever had such specific time descriptions before? Ryu once said paying attention to what is described in detail is important.
When I said they do most things together, I was making a shkannontrice joke. Furthermore, anyone else notice Erika's blue about the letter being placed earlier was never actually denied, Gertelia just said in black that people didn't notice it before when the door was opened. This could be a sneaky way of getting round it. Also, as an aside, anyone else really like how blue truths can be wrong but still defeat the illusion, like when battler stated that kino was recognized in four because someone else took on the title and asked Beatrice if people could hold more than one or something. He may have been wrong, but shkannon stops her from refuting him. |
2012-07-16, 00:20 | Link #29652 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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2012-07-16, 01:47 | Link #29653 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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In the manga, it's translated as 'everybody identified the sound as a knock and could not mistake it for any other sound' which does seem to imply that there was indeed a knocking sound. However, I'm more inclined to believe that this is just a translation difference and the wording of the red in Japanese probably didn't change between the VN and manga.
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2012-07-16, 03:41 | Link #29656 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Believe it or not, I don't think this was mistranslated, nor do I think it means that there was actually a knock. It's all from the "hence" part. I can't find a raw, but I suspect the Japanese word used is つまり, which has at other times been translated as "in short" or "in other words". Whenever these patterns occur, I believe that the red "conclusion" can be false. KnownNoMore actually identifies the best example one such situation in his 3rd video, at 1:12:07. And, no, the problem does not seem to be a mistranslation as KNM supposes. I guess the excuse is that the つまり statements are more like suggestions or theses and thus are not subject to being "true" or "false" in of themselves... but honestly, I think it's a pretty cheap trick to say these kinds of things in red. They should be in white. Quote:
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2012-07-16, 07:52 | Link #29659 | |
Senior Member
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After I researched the term a little I think I understand how he was able to make this mistake, though I'm not perfectly sure about the Japanese linguistic implications, because the terms are not exactly totally fixed in how they can be applied except for the approximate age and weight of the fetus. As this apparently happened on the due-date, the term miscarriage cannot be applied, as it is normaly only used up to 20-25weeks...but as miscarriage is categorized as a natural abortion of the fetus from the mothers womb, this created some inconsistencies in how far Kyrie would not have noticed anything. Though as far as I know, a stillbirth beyond a certain age of the fetus can still be medically a miscarriage but is legally handled as a stillbirth...so yeah, it was mostly a question of semantics back then. Oh, and I don't know if anybody ever brought this up and somebody would need to check the circumstances in Japan, but in Germany way into the 1980's the mother was sedated in case of a stillbirth and the fetus was removed from the room. So if Rudolph actually managed to buy the hospital staff, it wouldn't be that hard to make Kyrie believe her baby was stillborn. |
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