Guilty Crown - General Discussion

[Haak]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

In comparison have a look at the Mirai Nikki and Persona 4 (after episode 1 which was straight out awful) threads. Some heavy praise there which leaves me mind boggled because I'm seeing much bigger flaws in those yet picking are willing overlook them whilst Guilty Crown continues to be picked apart.

I actually think both aren't so great. I haven't been posting a lot there so I didn't realise the mood there was like that, but I think there have been some greviences posted in both threads. Just not on the level of Guilty Crown because there's more people watching Guilty Crown than the other two so naturally there's gonna be more people that will criticise. Personally I can't be arsed criticising Mirai Nikki and Persona 4, perhaps because the flaws in Guilty Crown are, for me, easier to articulate. There's also the other factor of both Mirai Nikki and Persona 4 having a large fanbase already (so doesn't necessarily have to rely on it's first episodes) whilst Guilty Crown doesn't and so won't have as many fans to defend it.

Plus Guilty Crown is a noitaminA show, and that unfortunately gives it certain expectations. Otaku pandering popcorn entertainment is something you generally wouldn't find in noitamina.

[Toto y Moi]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

But this isn't the case. Comments are more along the lines of "This was so generic and boring" and "Lol Code Geass clone" etc.

In comparison have a look at the Mirai Nikki and Persona 4 (after episode 1 which was straight out awful) threads. Some heavy praise there which leaves me mind boggled because I'm seeing much bigger flaws in those yet picking are willing overlook them whilst Guilty Crown continues to be picked apart.



This is probably the reason why. Over-hyped and disappointed. But then again I recall Persona 4 being really hyped too, but criticism for that has largely gone done for some reason.

But Mirai Nikki and Persona 4 aren't trying to be something they're not, and that's the difference.

Guilty Crown airs on the noitaminA block. noitamina used to be a block that mainly aired shows that women and people who typically didn't even watch anime could watch and enjoy. Like, you could show a noitaminA show to someone who wasn't an otaku and chances are that they would probably enjoy it. They were also typically artistic in a way that most anime shows weren't. Guilty Crown is not one of those shows. The creators of Guilty Crown intend also intend for it to be the next GitS or Eden of the East, and so far they haven't done anything but create a sci-fi show with cardboard cutout characters and forced fanservice.
'
It's pretty, but it has no substance.

[blue_sora]

Originally Posted by Haak

I actually think both aren't so great. I haven't been posting a lot there so I didn't realise the mood there was like that, but I think there have been some greviences posted in both threads. Just not on the level of Guilty Crown because there's more people watching Guilty Crown than the other two so naturally there's gonna be more people that will criticise. Personally I can't be arsed criticising Mirai Nikki and Persona 4, perhaps because the flaws in Guilty Crown are, for me, easier to articulate. There's also the other factor of both Mirai Nikki and Persona 4 having a large fanbase already (so doesn't necessarily have to rely on it's first episodes) whilst Guilty Crown doesn't and so won't have as many fans to defend it.

Plus Guilty Crown is a NoitaminA show, and that unfortunately gives it certain expectations.

Not to mention the staffs behind it. I agree it is because of the expectation, people expect maybe some mature themes or philosophies or a unique story, but the first 2 episodes doesn't show any of this. Of course the story could pick up to be an amazing one later, but you know what they said about first impressions .

And even for me who has zero expectations for the show could see the glaring flaws, mainly is the character execution, especially the female ones. While the animation is superb, it is undeniable that the female characters are portrayed as merely fanservice in this early point, and that annoyed some people.

But the show do have a lot of potential, for me I'm excited to see what kind of powers Shu will get throughout the series. It's just that it disappoint people's early expectations that it receives a lot of heat.

[applejuice]

Preorder ranking for Guilty Crown doesn't look promising. It might become another Nichijou if it doesn't show something like Mamiru and such.

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

But this isn't the case. Comments are more along the lines of "This was so generic and boring" and "Lol Code Geass clone" etc.

Comparison with Code Geass is totally fair, since staffs and concept just scream for it... They are trying to make this another Code Geass.

[Yuna Amakura]

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

But Mirai Nikki and Persona 4 aren't trying to be something they're not, and that's the difference.

I definitely agree. I also think that Persona 4 is giving more or less what the fans want, and that may be their real intention after all (even if I don't really agree with this kind of mentality). I can't say anything about Mirai Nikki though.

But the thing also is: it doesn't matter if Persona 4, Mirai Nikki, or whatever tv series airing on this season is receiving "unfair" feedback. Each "fandom" operates in a different manner. The fact is, so far, for many people, Guilty Crown has not presented anything beyond good animation and soundtrack. And this is happening for a fair reason.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Yuna Amakura

The fact is, so far, for many people, Guilty Crown has not presented anything beyond good animation and soundtrack. And this is happening for a fair reason.

That's the point. If that happens, many anime fans feel that all the quality animations and budget is wasted for bad series. If bad quality + bad story, then we will just think of it B-anime.

This one clearly had many touches that are trying to become a trend. But with this kind of development, that won't happen at all.

[hoarfrost]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

Playing devil's advocate a bit here because this series is way too overhated with only 2 episodes on its belt. I've been reading generic plot this generic character that, but really, how many anime series aren't generic? Let's have a look at some titles just this year that got really high praise but aren't exactly anything special plot or character (or both wise).

Anohana. This has a pretty generic premise if you ask me. A group of friends are trying to get over the death of a childhood friend and drama enfolds. A ton of melodrama and waterworks, much like those K/J-dramas I see on TV everyday, albeit with "anime" characters.

Usagi Drop. An anime about a bachelor 30y.o. male raising an abandoned little girl. Heartwarming to the max but is the plot something to be mind-boggled about? Not really.

Yet both of these were highly acclaimed due to one main reason: rock solid execution. Heck, I enjoyed both of the above series myself, the latter being one of my favorites now. However, you could have the most unique and exciting stories, but if you don't execute it well, it's gonna be bad period. Guilty Crown is much like that. Yes, the premise isn't anything special and the main character isn't the most interesting in the world, but it's production values are off the roof and it's damn well executed/directed given what it has. To me, it's just plain entertaining like a well made Hollywood action flick, so who cares in the end if the plot isn't the best. My only beef so far is the MC, but he's had some shounen-style GAR moments to cancel out his "emo" so it isn't all bad.

And yet there are some people who complain as if this series is a failure. To me, with the exception of Fate/Zero which is on a different tier really, it's incomparable to other action/thriller based series this season like Persona 4 or Mirai Nikki which has more severe problems than Guilty Crown, yet I've seen people stop complaining about P4 by episode 3 and people claiming that Mirai Nikki is the shiz. They are as much if not more generic than Guilty Crown is (the former showing the difficulties of adapting a JRPG to an anime, with the latter being little more than a yandere-fetish combined with a poor man's version of Battle Royale) but with noticeable directing problems.

I think some people need to get off the hate bandwagon and learn to sit back and just enjoy it. Or just drop the series like I did with Persona 4. If people can just sit back and genuinely enjoy the bickering and bantering between Yozora and Sena in Boku wa Tomodachi, why can't they have the same attitude for Guilty Crown? Is it the favoritism of the "slice of life" genre in general and how it seems to be "immune" to any plot criticisms?

One final note, I think people need to be a bit more patient. I recall highly acclaimed series like Tiger and Bunny and Steins Gate taking an entire half of the series before it started to dwell into "amazing" territory.

Well, for starters: I for one, don't really hold AnoHana to some high standard and have never understood why so many others do. I agree that it was overly melodramatic and disagree that the execution was particularly good. I think Usagi Drop on the other hand had great execution and while it may not be a totally original concept in the grand scheme of things, you have to admit it is a concept almost untouched upon in mainstream anime and manga. I've yet to see anything similar in Guilty Crown. Quite the opposite, GC aside from the totally typical elements seems to be espousing some sort of persecution complex against the rest of the world which I find distasteful.

Haven't really watched P4 yet and agree that Mirai Nikki has some pretty big problems with pace and suspension of disbelief that are present in the manga as well. I agree that F/Z stands head and shoulders above the competition this season and find it useful to point out (even if others will tire of comparisons to other shows) that shows such as that tend to display their potential upfront. They aren't shy about it, and from the first episode we saw of F/Z we (or those of you who haven't read the LN) knew we were watching something that could really go anywhere. Even if it's something like Madoka where it pulls a total 180 on you or Steins;Gate which takes a while to gain steam, there is always a certain intangible quality that provokes you to ask whether you really have it all figured out. Were I to notice something similar in GC, I could forgive its lackluster beginning, but quite the opposite I find it shutting off avenues by being too heavy handed, black and white and appealing too rigorously to convention in setting and character types.

And shows like Haganai which are a totally different genre and a totally different set of goals are going to be held by a different standard. That's inevitable. I have my criticism of those shows, but it's a different rubric. Maybe people have a different rubric by which they're judging GC. That's why my or anyone else's opinion isn't the correct one. But given the staff, money and hype that's been poured into this one and the fact that it's getting two cour treatment on the noitaminA block, I won't shy away from saying that I find it a disappointment so far and frankly it can't even claim to at least be ambitious like say, Fractale or C.

Not trying to convert anyone. If you like it my opinion won't change that anyway. Just trying to explain more in depth why some of us are having the reaction we're having. Maybe Guilty Crown will turn out to be brilliant, believe me I'd prefer that! I just wouldn't place my bet on it.

P.S. I just can't understand when people say that something is only meant to be entertaining, as though that is mutually exclusive with being anything else. Why not aim higher? Sure there's a bigger chance of failure but that's not such a big concern when you've got an experienced staff at the helm. Why not be entertaining and thought provoking, or entertaining and unique? I'd say it's killing too birds with one stone as its more fun that way anyway. Will it not be entertaining if the antagonists aren't total 2-bit assholes or a few less cliches are used? Just wondering. I don't even complain about fanservice usually, I'd like it to fix those problems first.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

Playing devil's advocate a bit here because this series is way too overhated with only 2 episodes on its belt. I've been reading generic plot this generic character that, but really, how many anime series aren't generic?

I respect some of the criticisms that Guilty Crown has received. Certainly, Shu's characterization so far leaves something to be desired, and Inori is perhaps not enough of a solid and independent character. For those looking for a more nuanced geopolitical commentary, Guilty Crown is understandably disappointing there as well.

Still, it's all this hate over being "generic" that I truly don't get.


How many "cute girls doing cute things" anime are there? How many ecchi and fanservice-driven shows are there? How many harem anime comedies are there (ones that consistently use jokes that you can see coming from a mile away as you've seen them a bazillion times before)?

Yet, I almost never see these shows criticized (in their own series threads, at least) for being "generic".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I necessarily dislike these shows (many shows that could be called "cute girls doing cute things" I've sincerely enjoyed), just that I don't see why Guilty Crown should get so much heat for something that loads of other anime shows are given a total pass on.


If it's due to the fact Guilty Crown is airing on noitaminA, then there's a painful fact that I think needs to be stated here: The old noitaminA is well and truly dead.

From Fractale to C to No. 6 to Guilty Crown, the time-slot is now more about sci-fi anime geared towards otakus than it is about appealing to women and non-standard anime fans. The only show to recently air on noitaminA that truly lives up to its original purpose is Usagi Drop. Even Anohana has enough of an otaku feel to it that I wouldn't necessarily view it as an attempt to appeal to non-standard anime fans. Also, don't forget that the next show to air on noitaminA is Black Rock Shooter.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Yuna Amakura

The fact is, so far, for many people, Guilty Crown has not presented anything beyond good animation and soundtrack. And this is happening for a fair reason.

Originally Posted by applejuice

That's the point. If that happens, many anime fans feel that all the quality animations and budget is wasted for bad series. If bad quality + bad story, then we will just think of it B-anime.

This one clearly had many touches that are trying to become a trend. But with this kind of development, that won't happen at all.

Redline is another title that for me this is an example of. It had great animation, great soundtrack, but if you really tried to pick it apart it wouldn't exactly be top notch either.

[Dahak86]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

How many ecchi and fanservice-driven shows are there? How many harem anime comedies are there (ones that consistently use jokes that you can see coming from a mile away as you've seen them a bazillion times before)?

that still doesn't make said jokes any less funny...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yet, I almost never see these shows criticized (in their own series threads, at least) for being "generic".

what, you serious? You haven't been to many harem-anime threads, have you?

Originally Posted by hoarfrost

P.S. I just can't understand when people say that something is only meant to be entertaining, as though that is mutually exclusive with being anything else. Why not aim higher? Sure there's a bigger chance of failure but that's not such a big concern when you've got an experienced staff at the helm. Why not be entertaining and thought provoking, or entertaining and unique? I'd say it's killing too birds with one stone as its more fun that way anyway.

more often than not, the two things are mutually exclusive, due to them practically being at the opposite ends of the spectrum, plus it's not so easy to successfully merge/integrate them with each other.

One should also keep in mind that there's a whole audience out there who simply wants to be entertained without having to think too much.
GC's clearly geared towards said audience, for better or for worse.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I respect some of the criticisms that Guilty Crown has received. Certainly, Shu's characterization so far leaves something to be desired, and Inori is perhaps not enough of a solid and independent character. For those looking for a more nuanced geopolitical commentary, Guilty Crown is understandably disappointing there as well.

Still, it's all this hate over being "generic" that I truly don't get.


How many "cute girls doing cute things" anime are there? How many ecchi and fanservice-driven shows are there? How many harem anime comedies are there (ones that consistently use jokes that you can see coming from a mile away as you've seen them a bazillion times before)?

Yet, I almost never see these shows criticized (in their own series threads, at least) for being "generic".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I necessarily dislike these shows (many shows that could be called "cute girls doing cute things" I've sincerely enjoyed), just that I don't see why Guilty Crown should get so much heat for something that loads of other anime shows are given a total pass on.


If it's due to the fact Guilty Crown is airing on noitaminA, then there's a painful fact that I think needs to be stated here: The old noitaminA is well and truly dead.

From Fractale to C to No. 6 to Guilty Crown, the time-slot is now more about sci-fi anime geared towards otakus than it is about appealing to women and non-standard anime fans. The only show to recently air on noitaminA that truly lives up to its original purpose is Usagi Drop. Even Anohana has enough of an otaku feel to it that I wouldn't necessarily view it as an attempt to appeal to non-standard anime fans. Also, don't forget that the next show to air on noitaminA is Black Rock Shooter.

Good post.

I think the term generic tends to get unfairly attached to action based series a lot. Mecha and shounen are two other genres that get unreasonable flak for being excessively generic. Perhaps we were all exposed to it the most, along with those big hollywood action blockbusters or what not that we can't take action as a source of entertainment alone.

But this results with a double standard where non action series, particularly as you mentioned "cute girls doing cute things" which are a dime a dozen don't always get branded as generic whereas an action series almost always is.

The other problem is that generic is such a vague criticism. Is something bad because it's done before?

It's simpler if you think about it like a chess game which only has so many openings but so many ways to branch out. Right now, dismissing GC out the gate is like saying 1.d4 OMG you're such a robot!

I think as someone who likes strategy games a lot, that the creativity doesn't always begin at the start, and that many people who always long for creativity don't always know what they're looking for. After all, you can't write before you learn to spell, right? It takes the building of a foundation before you can actually start "being creative"

But you can still criticize it as it sets up I guess. Inori being portrayed as a sex doll and having 90s Arnold movie supervillains is not gonna sit well with some. However, one can't expect a show to play its hand immediately. Penguindrum took a dozen episodes, and so did Tiger and Bunny after all. Or Madoka with 3-4.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Iby

creb, it's "Apocalypse Virus".
Also, I still believe that this girl doedn't look like Inori.

Now you're just nitpicking.

Anyways, hopefully we get a sub-forum so the 95% who'd rather just talk about how generic it is and how awesome Lelouch is can get their own threads.

I'm still thinking the girl in the snow is Inori, unless they plan on introducing another hot girl to the main cast (totally possible of course).

[mechalord]

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

But Mirai Nikki and Persona 4 aren't trying to be something they're not, and that's the difference.

Guilty Crown airs on the noitaminA block. noitamina used to be a block that mainly aired shows that women and people who typically didn't even watch anime could watch and enjoy. Like, you could show a noitaminA show to someone who wasn't an otaku and chances are that they would probably enjoy it. They were also typically artistic in a way that most anime shows weren't. Guilty Crown is not one of those shows. The creators of Guilty Crown intend also intend for it to be the next GitS or Eden of the East, and so far they haven't done anything but create a sci-fi show with cardboard cutout characters and forced fanservice.
'
It's pretty, but it has no substance.

It seems like an anime intended for people that are already into anime. It has that Darker than Black meets Code Geass meets Final Fantasy vibe going on. I think it has started off strong.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

Playing devil's advocate a bit here because this series is way too overhated with only 2 episodes on its belt. I've been reading generic plot this generic character that, but really, how many anime series aren't generic? Let's have a look at some titles just this year that got really high praise but aren't exactly anything special plot or character (or both wise).

Anohana. This has a pretty generic premise if you ask me. A group of friends are trying to get over the death of a childhood friend and drama enfolds. A ton of melodrama and waterworks, much like those K/J-dramas I see on TV everyday, albeit with "anime" characters.

Usagi Drop. An anime about a bachelor 30y.o. male raising an abandoned little girl. Heartwarming to the max but is the plot something to be mind-boggled about? Not really.

Yet both of these were highly acclaimed due to one main reason: rock solid execution. Heck, I enjoyed both of the above series myself, the latter being one of my favorites now. However, you could have the most unique and exciting stories, but if you don't execute it well, it's gonna be bad period. Guilty Crown is much like that. Yes, the premise isn't anything special and the main character isn't the most interesting in the world, but it's production values are off the roof and it's damn well executed/directed given what it has. To me, it's just plain entertaining like a well made Hollywood action flick, so who cares in the end if the plot isn't the best. My only beef so far is the MC, but he's had some shounen-style GAR moments to cancel out his "emo" so it isn't all bad.

And yet there are some people who complain as if this series is a failure. To me, with the exception of Fate/Zero which is on a different tier really, it's incomparable to other action/thriller based series this season like Persona 4 or Mirai Nikki which has more severe problems than Guilty Crown, yet I've seen people stop complaining about P4 by episode 3 and people claiming that Mirai Nikki is the shiz. They are as much if not more generic than Guilty Crown is (the former showing the difficulties of adapting a JRPG to an anime, with the latter being little more than a yandere-fetish combined with a poor man's version of Battle Royale) but with noticeable directing problems.

I think some people need to get off the hate bandwagon and learn to sit back and just enjoy it. Or just drop the series like I did with Persona 4. If people can just sit back and genuinely enjoy the bickering and bantering between Yozora and Sena in Boku wa Tomodachi, why can't they have the same attitude for Guilty Crown? Is it the favoritism of the "slice of life" genre in general and how it seems to be "immune" to any plot criticisms?

One final note, I think people need to be a bit more patient. I recall highly acclaimed series like Tiger and Bunny and Steins Gate taking an entire half of the series before it started to dwell into "amazing" territory.

lol I've been saying that internet anime fandom shows favoritism towards so called "slice of life" shows for years now. Guess it took a popular series and/or a season with lots of high quality variety (IMO) to highlight that, but I don't think that's what is doing it for a change. Fate/Zero more than any other show seems to be having the weird effect on people lately and I'm seeing a lot of the same sort of favoritism between things that are happening in that show that are arguably just as "cliche", slow moving and info dumpish (not that that's a problem in and of itself when it comes to early episodes), but yet it gets praised for those things or at the very least a pass and other shows get slagged for their "cliches".

Right now I'd say there are three shows that seem to be projecting some sort of criticism forcefield and those are Fate/Zero (popular current writer/franchise as overriding factor), Mirai Nikki (popular tsundere character as overriding factor) as you point out in the action/thriller category along with GC, Last Exile and Gundam among others, and Boku wa Tomodachi (attractive females with laid back slice of life atmosphere as overriding factor) in the comedy fanservice category along with other shows like Horizon and Guilty Crown again, though the latter two are both also action so maybe that's enough to earn them a totally different deal from fans.

Don't know what else to say about it, but it's definitely become noticeably hilarious to me over the course of the last month. Fate/Zero, Mirai Nikki and Boku wa Tomodachi can just do no wrong to most fans and GC, Gundam, Horizon and Last Exile can seemingly do very little that doesn't get them a large share of hate and criticism at times.

In any case I'd say all of the anime fandom needs to go to their corners, take a deep breath and try things over again from a more balanced perspective, but I just don't see that sort of thing ever happening, which is why I try my best to just laugh it off with friends and maybe grouse about it a bit when it gets a little too stifling.

Also I will go ahead and disagree that Fate/Zero stands head and shoulders above every other show this season. In terms of adaptations one might have a point, but best period? That to me is just silly talk. There are too many different types and genres of shows both original and adapted that are quite strong such that it becomes impossible for me to argue that there's any inherently best one amongst the bunch. That whole sort of thing coming from the fans of that show is getting more than a little overbearing at this point so I kind of hope they dial it down a little towards the second half run.

[Flower]

I also would "vote" for giving the series the benefit of the doubt for now and give it a few more eps to "play it's cards".

Erm ... fwiw.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Still, it's all this hate over being "generic" that I truly don't get.


How many "cute girls doing cute things" anime are there? How many ecchi and fanservice-driven shows are there? How many harem anime comedies are there (ones that consistently use jokes that you can see coming from a mile away as you've seen them a bazillion times before)?

Yet, I almost never see these shows criticized (in their own series threads, at least) for being "generic".

Those shows advertise exactly what they are, and thus the people who'd criticize them don't even watch it. Ie, if people order a Big Mac, they get a Big Mac, and they're happy. People who don't want a Big Mac know not to order one.

However, with Guilty Crown, it advertied itself as filet mignon, but you get a poor cut instead. This is why people are overly critical.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

Those shows advertise exactly what they are, and thus the people who'd criticize them don't even watch it. Ie, if people order a Big Mac, they get a Big Mac, and they're happy. People who don't want a Big Mac know not to order one.

However, with Guilty Crown, it advertied itself as filet mignon, but you get a poor cut instead. This is why people are overly critical.

How exactly did Guilty Crown advertise itself as such? It did probably point out those high production values.

Well, I guess there's that slot. But...

[Haak]

The political and sci-fi premise and Inori's cryptic dialogue is what made think that it would be a bit more sophisticated

[Archon_Wing]

Hmm, but in itself that didn't really make it stand out. Many a sci-fi thriller will do that in the trailers.

When I saw the trailer, I saw ridiculous fanservicey outfits, cool looking stuff, and good action. It's what I got, for the most part, but I never had any expectations for the story-- that'd just be a bonus.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Hmm, but in itself that didn't really make it stand out. Many a sci-fi thriller will do that in the trailers.

When I saw the trailer, I saw ridiculous fanservicey outfits, cool looking stuff, and good action. It's what I got, for the most part, but I never had any expectations for the story-- that'd just be a bonus.

About that trailer, when I saw it I noticed tanks, Gai doing that arm twisting maneuver that resembles real fighting techniques, and a lot of vaguely I.G like things that made me think semi-sophisticated political/sci-fi thriller ala Gundam or Eden of The East only with sassy character designs, so as I said early in the thread that more than anything is what has me a little down on the show right now.

Two episode in it's basically 3/4 of the way to the exact opposite of what I was expecting. Yeah, believe it it not I actually kind of expected this to be semi-realistic in how it presented itself so that was a source of disappointment. What worries me going forward is that the ham-fisted way in which the conflict and villains are portrayed is going to keep me from adapting to what the show actually is unless there's something else like great character conflict/relationships within Funeral Parlor or intriguing concepts and twists to keep things interesting. Right now as I keep saying I'm expecting more the latter than the former. I just don't think Yoshino has it in him to write good or complex characters drama without being as ham-fisted about it as possible, but on occasion he can hit you with interesting concepts and plot twists that are if nothing else at least amusing and entertaining.