(L+CR) Goblin Slayer

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Yeah, pretty much. Thanks for the support, bruh.

That's okay, the story can give her two or three months before joining GS party. She doesn't have to be totally recovered mentally either when joining the party, but at least she can already be independent, active and mostly-functioning as an adventurer (girls gotta eat too, right?). That ought to give her more meat for development throughout the story. So that's my "what if"-scenario. What's yours?

You do realize that there are other professions than an adventurer that she can take to earn money to eat, right? Also, someone that's not fully recovered mentally yet? That's just reminding me of problems happening with similar situations (excluding the 'rape part', just traumatizing events) that happened in the God Eater anime and Young Justice with the 'real' Roy character. Also, are you underestimating how traumatizing these events can be? Are you saying that the Monk's/Fighter's mental fortitude was high/strong enough for her to bounce back in the time frame you've given?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by ShadowSamurai365

You do realize that there are other professions than an adventurer that she can take to earn money to eat, right? Also, someone that's not fully recovered mentally yet? That's just reminding me of problems happening with similar situations (excluding the 'rape part', just traumatizing events) that happened in the God Eater anime and Young Justice with the 'real' Roy character. Also, are you underestimating how traumatizing these events can be? Are you saying that the Monk's/Fighter's mental fortitude was high/strong enough for her to bounce back in the time frame you've given?

Note that my argument came from Klashikari's comment that said "There wouldn't be really any additional value to have the Female Fighter to join the Priestess and GS on the journey at all." which I argue for the opposite (that it has value & potential to be good). So "Fighter joining GS party and becomes one of the protags" is the standard/starting point that was set for this argument starting from my reply to Klashikari. So yeah, if you want to enter this argument, that's the starting point. If you want Fighter to have another job other than adventurer, that's probably fine too, as long as she remains active in the main narrative.

And no, I'm not underestimating the traumatic effect of rape. In my "what if"- scenario, I can make Fighter to have a much stronger personality and mental fortitude than what we actually have so that she can recover a lot faster (but still carrying that scar).

[Haak]

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@ Klashikari

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@ Liddo-kun

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@ Anh Minh

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[Wheeljack83]

Originally Posted by XFire

..........please tell me he didn't actually say that

He said it, word for word.

[Wheeljack83]

Originally Posted by Haak

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@ Klashikari

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@ Liddo-kun

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@ Anh Minh

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I don't think it was important to see that happen. But it will happen for another character in this story.

[KikeLyne]

Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly

Where did you get these lines? They sound horrendously callous. If they're the sayings of a harsh world, then destroying that world and making one with a place for compassion should be the project of modern society; to some extent it is.

They are voiced lines from a dark fantasy game. And given the premises and mechanics of the game in question, them being alive though broken and tossed might be better than "soaking the soils, feeding the evil within".

Goblin Slayer is a Dark Fantasy genre in a 'game-like' world, so i don't see why those lines don't fit something that belongs to a world that acts like a game.

I am still hoping for someone to create a video using quotes and references from it, rather than seeing commenting on Dark Doom Slayer in most GS videos in question.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly

Fighter's father, at least, is dead. Where did you get these lines? They sound horrendously callous. If they're the sayings of a harsh world, then destroying that world and making one with a place for compassion should be the project of modern society; to some extent it is.

I see some people still have not played one of the best dungeon crawlers of those last years. Darkest Dungeon, where the in-game narrator literally sells the game.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Haak

Except Attack on Titan began by showing the main characters as the victims and the main character's mother getting eating, who was already an established character prior to the deed.

You see? This is all just a game of False Equivalency here. A lot of stories do it better.

I'm talking about the numerous victim on the initial assault. Those have the exact same role as the rape victims here: they do not provide any emotional anchor to the main character, as they are pretty much background character without much to expose. They serve as part the world building by defining the general threat. Even if Eren's mother wasn't part of the victim list, I wouldn't have trouble to accept his indignation because of the casualties. And this is the very same basis I have here: the rape scene didn't make me care that much about the female fighter, but it was enough for me to understand that goblins are more than simple looters in that story. That's why I believe it fits the "logical thematic" here.

Half-breeds aren't presented as usual in the Harry Potter-verse and none of the Half-breeds in Harry Potter come from non-humans who are anything remotely animalistic as the goblins in Goblin Slayer. Comparing such an example to Goblin Slayer is another case of False Equivalency. I stand by my point, it's difficult to think of anything similar to rape loving goblins if you aren't familiar with Japanese/game literature.

You are missing the point entirely. My point is that crossbreeding -exist- in western literature, and Goblins are still considered as creatures close to the humanoids, even though their racial origins can go as far as purely demonic depending the lore of the story. Meaning that sexual intercourse do happen in such kind of stories, and if it does, it is NOT farfetched that actual rape can occur. I believe this point is pretty straightforward: your assumption that you must be acquainted with Japanese story or Game background hold little legitimacy here.

I made two very distinct points. One was that the rape scene itself would come across as nonsensical, and the other was that the explanation behind the rape revealed later is itself cheap and contrived. Just pick one and stick to it. Don't keep flitting back and forth because that just muddles the waters.

And that's what I exactly did. I mentioned the second point as an addendum once and it was never my intention to be my main argument. I sticked my argument for the former subject at hand, and you keep using arguments about logical thematic and "not making sense", to which I already addressed.

Then it doesn't make a damn bit of difference how calm he appears on the outside. The story is very clearly making a point on what he is on the inside

You know when I said "Dark Avenger" I didn't mean it so literally that he personally wants vengeance for every victim he sees. I just meant that he was a force delivering karmic retribution. The story is called Goblin Slayer, not Goblins. From my perspective it really seems like you're performing some extreme mental gymnastics to not see that the whole point of making goblins so evil is to make their demise that much sweeter, and consequently for us to root for the one delivering their demise.

I don't really need any mental gymnastic for it, simply because this kind of occurence is pretty mundane from my perspective, and it is probably tied to your perception that "goblin raping humans doesn't make any sense". In my perspective, be it goblins, demons or thugs, they will not hesitate to abuse and torment the weak if they feel like it. You call that as an attempt to glorify GS in his extermination, I personally see it as a mundane action, and GS would have done such thing regardless. To me, the fact GS wasn't perturbed the slightest, without any hint of internal turmoil pretty much speaks volume about his behaviour. That's the very reason I pointed out the complete absence of reaction, meaning that even if the party was purely male (thus no rape... normally speaking), GS would just tear them apart. That's why the rape itself doesn't make me root him more.

I guess I will just don't bother anymore. The fact you think I was changing goalposts was already bad enough, but I was seriously debating about that subject without any intention of manipulating anyone's argument. So having my arguments called "game of false equivalency" or "mental gymnastics" and so forth pretty much make think it isn't going anywhere since you don't seem to take my arguments seriously.

[zeando]

Originally Posted by KikeLyne

Goblin Slayer is a Dark Fantasy genre in a 'game-like' world, so i don't see why those lines don't fit something that belongs to a world that acts like a game.

There is a precisation to make, the difference between a videogame and a tabletop game.
The world of goblin slayer isn't a videogame-like world, but a tabletop-like world. (or at least it tries)

In videogames there is little left to the imagination, you see what there is on your screen, the mechanics can get away with being formulatic and overly convoluted since all the calculations are made by a computer, and the players rarely have to even see them.
In tabletops it's all about using the players imagination to give shape to the game, and the mechanics can't be too complex or convoluted, since they need to be applied by humans.

The biggest difference between the two is the use of human imagination as "game engine" (ugh, having to use videogame terms to explain this..). In a videogame you're limited to what was expected to happen in the game, you can't do something which isn't originally programmed(you have to alter the game with mods to do things not originally in the game, which means breaking the game). In a tabletop game you can ideally bullshit a lot more and do things which no one "planned" to make happen before, while staying inside the game rules.

Your videogame doesn't have cats? Then you can't have cats. It isn't a rule, but a game limitation. Tabletops are mostly free from those limitations.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I'd say people are varied. Like IRL, not every rape victim in anime need to be portrayed as "too traumatized to do anything" after the horrible deed. Some of them can rise up and regain their life and be a decent & productive person, among other things. A certain female character from Gundam Unicorn is a good example of it. Writers can be creative about it without downplaying the effects of rape itself. Sky's the limit.

Of course it happens IRL. But in this particular story? It would be overambitious at best and a cope out at worst. Or maybe the other way around. Overambitious because it is hard to write such a thing convincingly. And also not particularly needed here. Goblin Slayer just... doesn't need her. If you're going to insist on her recovering, and showing her recovery in excruciating detail, you might as well write a spin-off called "Female Goblin Slayer", where she is the MC and slays goblins.

A cope out because what happened to her is part of the gut punch showing the goblins are evil and will destroy everything you love if you let them. And that Goblin isn't an all-conquering hero à la All Might, who can say "Everything's alright, for I have arrived". Goblin Slayer only arrived in time to kill Magician, and though he was able to save Fighter's life, she was still broken. To see her bounce back would mean she was broken... but not too much. Not all the way. As if indulging those who can't bear to see that.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly

It is ubiquitous, not normal. Real and fictional mass bystanders can view rape (or sexual harassment) as normal, unavoidable, something that's bound to happen when women are careless, or transgress. But writers can hold and communicate different views from those held by their characters; writers who portray a graphic rape and uncritically report that it is seen as normal are an inch away from being part of the problem. The writer of Goblin slayer does oppose rape in his story by showing the rape itself as horrible, and having the rapist goblins all killed, but it's the crudest positive response to the problem of rape, and an inadequate response, given the writer's choice to abandon and silence Fighter. I think it will be some time before a rape survivor character does appear in this story.

When Priestess says that rape and TPKs happen all the time, and has nothing more to do with Fighter, we can imagine that she's hardening her heart. To cope with a horror that cannot be seen as normal up close, as the length of this discussion indicates. I'm very tempted to judge the extent that the writer wishes to really do his duty to condemn rape by the extent that he makes this clear. He has created a world of female adventures and one-gender goblins suspiciously geared towards rape scenes, with the real world's callousness toward women, and none of its obsessive protection of their reproductive capacity. If Goblin slayer was a gritty, realistic drama there would be no female adventurers, and if there was rape it could no longer be seen as a punishment for being strong.

Maybe you should've kept watching. Priestess says rape and TPK's happen all the time AND THEN proceeds to join GS to hunt goblins. Priestess has accepted the fact that the tragedy she witnessed was not some once-in-a-lifetime tragedy. This is neither weak nor pro-rape. As we sit here in front of our devices on our fat asses, rape is happening somewhere. This declaration does not make me a pessimist, sexist, or genius. Priestess' actions that followed spoke more than a thousand words. She chose to fight goblins. To fight the creatures behind these tragedies that has become common knowledge having JUST witnessed the fate of females in the hands of goblins. How does this not speak volumes of her character? And does this not, in turn, champion female strength?

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by orion

Certain content (female degradation) will get this type of discussion now. It's not the only title to have a rape in it. We had Angolmois from last season that threw one in near the last episode. This title just has it more in your face/detailed which leads to more discussion.

It always amazes me the hypocrisy of some people regarding this subject (not necessarily in this forum but in an overall perspective). The girl was raped, everyone loses their minds yet the guy was beaten to death with his body parts used for food, no one bats an eye
The reverse happened in the Outlander series where the male protagonist was raped by the main villain and the whole scene was made to be erotic af. I mean, Yaoi fangirls would get nose bleeds for days, yet no one cares. If it was a girl in the same situation, the series would probably be canceled
At least in GS (anime version since i have no idea about the other mediums), the scene was obviously made to portray the goblins as the scum of the world by making the audience to empathize with the victims and with the hero's main goal. It was not even used for any erotic motive. That Digidude quote someone posted here was right. It is very obvious what he wanted to say. No point in being PC about it, especially when we are just talking about a bunch of fake pixels in a fictional story where no one actually got hurt.

Torture, murder, gore and overall suffering is ok. Rape? That's too much. So edgyyy I would argue the former stuff is as bad as the latter and makes no sense to hate on it exclusively imo. But for some reason, some people take offense when a story dares to tackle this issue but only when it happens to women...

[orion]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

It always amazes me the hypocrisy of some people regarding this subject (not necessarily in this forum but in an overall perspective). The girl was raped, everyone loses their minds yet the guy was beaten to death with his body parts used for food, no one bats an eye
The reverse happened in the Outlander series where the male protagonist was raped by the main villain and the whole scene was made to be erotic af. I mean, Yaoi fangirls would get nose bleeds for days, yet no one cares. If it was a girl in the same situation, the series would probably be canceled
At least in GS (anime version since i have no idea about the other mediums), the scene was obviously made to portray the goblins as the scum of the world by making the audience to empathize with the victims and with the hero's main goal. It was not even used for any erotic motive. That Digidude quote someone posted here was right. It is very obvious what he wanted to say. No point in being PC about it, especially when we are just talking about a bunch of fake pixels in a fictional story where no one actually got hurt.

Torture, murder, gore and overall suffering is ok. Rape? That's too much. So edgyyy I would argue the former stuff is as bad as the latter and makes no sense to hate on it exclusively imo. But for some reason, some people take offense when a story dares to tackle this issue but only when it happens to women...

You're comparing a current title to a title from 1986? A lot of people prob haven't even seen that or weren't born when it was made yet.

Rape has never been okay. We're also in the #metoo era, so it's definitely not going to be "okay" for victims of either gender.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by orion

You're comparing a current title to a title from 1986? A lot of people prob haven't even seen that or weren't born when it was made yet.

Rape has never been okay. We're also in the #metoo era, so it's definitely not going to be "okay" for victims of either gender.

I'm not familiar with the 1986 series. I meant this. Plus, my point is that none of the stuff i mentioned is "okay".

[Tenzen12]

People had fun when Kanbaru sexualy abuse Araragi and it wasn't all that long ago...

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Keila

Slightly off topic (though slightly on-topic).

Let's assume (conventional stereotypes apply)

+ Amazons are female only
+ Goblins are male only
+ Both fundamentally need to have their way with other races (assuming Amazon's are female only humanoids but not necessarily 'human' per se) in order to reproduce.


If Amazon's (instead of Goblins) were the ones running around, sacking towns and having their way with the population, using the males as breeding aids would people still have an issue with the actions of the Amazons? (and by extension, if 'Amazon Slayer' went around butchering them).


Note: I'd have no issues or strong feelings in either case. As far as I'm concerned there is a story being told and (at least for the moment) the world makes sense and the actions taken by the inhabitants are what you would expect from living beings.

Originally Posted by orion

Amazons prob wouldn't get away with it for very long as the resident population would find a way of bringing retribution faster. If you look at the Wonder Woman history (from the film) those Amazons had a slave past. The same thing would happen to that population imo. It's usually in the female's best interest to not upset the status quo.

the Amazon's also don't need to upset anyone but the housewives. They just need to announce that a group of amazon has come into heat and they need some volunteers form the locals to help out. They would have a line form round the block.

[orion]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

I'm not familiar with the 1986 series. I meant this. Plus, my point is that none of the stuff i mentioned is "okay".

https://ew.com/article/2015/05/31/ho...ng-rape-scene/

That scene that you're referring to also dealt with the victim dealing with the violence and not glorifying the violence. We won't see Fighter's recovery as she was just carted off to somewhere ending her storyline.

The article also mentions that people are getting ticked off with the level of sexual violence in the media. So yeah, it's not "okay".

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

Torture, murder, gore and overall suffering is ok. Rape? That's too much. So edgyyy I would argue the former stuff is as bad as rape and makes no sense to hate on it exclusively imo. But for some reason, some people take offense when a story dares to tackle this issue but only when it happens to women...

Tone it down buddy, be civil. If you are paying a little more attention, they're not saying the rape itself is the problem, rather the issue is the apparent mishandling of its depiction. And I guess one can argue GS hasn't really "tackled the issue", just using a gratuitous depiction to hammer the point that this is a normal occurrence and to emphasize the evilness of the goblins. Someone likened it to victims of titans Attack on Titan, I agree, the gratuitous violence there was also used to hammer the point that titans are a menace.

So then I guess you would be right in questioning "why would the violence in AoT were 'fine' as is and yet in GS rape simply being gratuitous isn't enough to justify its depiction", "why is using rape as a plot device need some special care?". I honestly can't answer that. Unlike them, I don't think too much about the rape scene itself, indeed I likened it to the titan victims in AoT. Background detail, not really that important, nor do I feel it needs to be more than that. OTOH, unlike the ones defending the scene, I also can't really see how it is supposed to be great or an in depth depiction of how the goblins are evil, etc etc.

[EroKing]

The rape aspect is pretty much there for the shock value imo, replace it with the Goblins having a nice buffet of human parts and it would still have been considered quite dark. Better to just discuss something else or wait for the next episode, at this point you guys are literally going around in circles. Heck I should consider some of you married to each other by Hindu traditions

[Wheeljack83]

I think most every individual would agree rape is not OK. But that doesn't mean artists or storytellers should be restricted from showing it.

All these so called critics should be disowning "Futurama" too.
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/yttx80...ath-by-snu-snu