2012-12-15, 19:48 | Link #484 | |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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But then again there ''Jail for profit'' in the US so...
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2012-12-15, 20:54 | Link #486 | ||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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Nothing else needs to be said. Quote:
Otherwise, no you can't stop them from attempting the crime. You have to have someone there at the moment the act begins to stop it. That is the fact and it is incontrovertible. All this talk about "easy access", "if only there were no guns" and other inane viewpoints are moot. Quote:
Where: a school, shopping mall, theater, library or any other "gun free zone." Quote:
Yes, you do want to punish the law abiding because they're not the problem. The problem are the law breakers, sane, insane or otherwise. I've given you the only method yet to be tried in the US, that being the one that has worked for Israel since 1974. That's a clear record of a country filled with violent individuals hell bent on committing massacres who cannot do so because the children of that country are protected by armed teachers who are trained to use their weapons. So this nonsense about banning, more restrictions, yadda, yadda is no longer logical. We've given these things a try. We had an "assault weapon and high cap mag ban" from 1994-2004. Columbine happened during that time, so did the DC sniper, so did the North Hollywood bank shooting (with real machineguns). Thus as both Syn and Ithekro had so eloquently shown you, prohibition does not work in the US. The so called "war on drugs" is proof of that. Can you even imagine the level of violence and death a "war on guns" would ensue? Quote:
It's already happened, there is no claim necessary. Before the 1934 NFA there were hardly any mass school shootings. After it was passed we've seen an increasing number of them at greater frequency and with deadlier effect. After 1934, there are numerous Federal gun-control laws restricting access, type, and purchasing ability. During the same period that gun laws have increased, so have the incidents of mass shooters. Why isn't understood, but what is understood is that increased gun laws do nothing to stop these incidents. Quote:
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Who the hell are you? I mean, if we're going to play this kind of "wishing-well" game of what we want, I want every gun-control law in the US repealed, a mandatory militia enrollment for all able-bodied men and women ages 17-60 instituted, mandatory possession of a fully automatic assault rifle, pistol, and military shotgun. Also, mandatory training and qualifications through the CMP, children's shooting clubs, and local recreational centers. I also want a mandatory death penalty for use of a firearm in a crime that causes a death (no life in prison crap). I want draconian anti-gang laws, and prosecution of any law enforcement, politicians, or other government employees that sell weapons to organized criminals (you know, like the BATF personnel that conducted Operation Fast & Furious). However, I'm not really interested in your peter-pannery or playing make-believe. I'm only interested in the facts of the situation as they lay, so put your emotional drivel in your pocket and save it for someone who actually gives a shit because I don't. I will defend my rights whether you like it or not. Quote:
Or does it only apply to guns because you have a morbid fear of them? Quote:
Guess you missed this story when I posted it. I have news for you brainiac, if a killer is that hell-bent on doing his deed, there are plenty of cops he can just steal a gun from. Oops, guess your little gun-control fantasy just went poof huh? Not that it was anything but a horribly thin strawman to begin with. I mean, it isn't like your "gun-free" Germany hasn't had it's fair share of mass shootings. In fact, I seem to remember something of this nature happening in Germany awhile back. Don't lecture me about the US until Germany has an open border with a country like Mexico with drugs, guns, and gangbangers going through relatively unhindered because it's the way both major political parties want it. Quote:
The part I left is what you want to say. You don't give a damn about people's rights, you just want to ban guns because you fear them. You are the classical definition of a hoplophobe and that is a mental disorder. There is nothing rational in what you're posting and I consider you incapable of having a mature discussion about this subject. Quote:
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2012-12-15, 21:17 | Link #488 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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These types of incidents are incredibly difficult to map out and understand, and why they have proven to be impervious to legislative attempts at preventing them in the US. Here is a decent article by some learned persons on the subject.
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2012-12-15, 21:56 | Link #490 | |
Deadpan Snarker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 46
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Israel is under a constant terrorist threat Apparently, the US is so ****** up you're living under a constant citizen threat?
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2012-12-15, 21:58 | Link #491 | ||
=^^=
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
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Spoiler:
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2012-12-15, 22:16 | Link #492 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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It simply is a fact of life that no law is going to change. Quote:
From domestic groups, foreign groups, drug Cartel groups, etc. 9/11 proved that, as did Oaklahoma City. When is the last time that more than 3000 people died in Israel in a single attack? We lost 168 in the Oaklahoma City bombing, including 19 children under the age of 6. In Waco, 17 children were killed by the BATF totally fucking up that operation. I go on, but what's the point. This incident, as tragic and horrible as it is, isn't actually unusual in the United States. The United States is now, and I could argue, always has been a very violent place. That's why we have the Department of Homeland Security, the TSA, the BATF, the FBI, the CIA, the DEA, militarized state and local police, and yes the right to keep and bear arms. Culturally, we are probably one of the most violent societies on Earth, and Americans for the most part seem content with that.
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2012-12-15, 22:45 | Link #493 |
Juanita/Kiteless
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New England
Age: 40
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I'm not saying we should outright ban guns, but for people who say that we should and for people that say we can't because we'll give up our rights (okay, rights that only some of the population actually wants) and they say that "if we give up that amendment, how long before we axe other amendments", I do have this to say: Of course, we wouldn't have to give up any rights if they never made the 2nd amendment in the first place. How unfortunate that they made an amendment to the constitution which says "Hey, every American has the right to own guns!".
You gotta love that a lot of people in America don't say "In retrospect, I wish they didn't do that", but a lot of those same people hate Thomas Jefferson for his good idea of "separation of church and state" ("Grrr, we coulda had a Christian theocracy, gosh darn it!").
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2012-12-15, 22:49 | Link #494 |
=^^=
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
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By the way, here were the shooter's weapons:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1220431 === Someone explain to me a good reason as to why the Bushmaster should be sold for civilian use.
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2012-12-15, 23:00 | Link #495 |
Good OP Hunter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Argentina
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If you're selling pistols you might as well sell assault rifles. It's like telling people to buy a Ford Model T while the army has a Kinetic Design Focus.
Both guns can kill people, it isn't about the size. In fact, a rifle is more noticable than a handgun like the Glock and at least gives you a "warning". It all lies in the "authorization" and "training". To obtain a driver's license you have to pass certain tests. It should be the same for guns. Arty
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2012-12-16, 18:39 | Link #497 |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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I want to make clear that this thread was only locked to give us some time to review some of the recent posts and give the thread a break to prevent it from spiraling out of control (given how quickly it was moving). It was not an indication that discussing this topic was forbidden entirely.
Also, recently discussion on this topic spread to some other threads, and these discussions were asked to be stopped. This was because, if a thread on a certain topic is locked, it is not right just to migrate that discussion to another thread were it could be considered off-topic. The request here was that people take a break for a bit, not just choose a different thread. Anyway, to be honest, we still need to review some of the above posts that got a bit too heated, but let me just set some clear ground rules going forward. This is obviously a very heated topic, and particularly right now given the latest tragedy. It is understandable that people feel passionately about this, but the staff will not tolerate anything less than a civil, constructive conversation. 1. Do not attack any other posters. Period. Do not insult their intelligence, accuse them of trolling, or anything else -- even and especially if you think it's true. 2. If someone is trolling, report them. Do not respond. If you respond to a troll post, you are only making a bad situation worse, and you too may be asked/required to leave temporarily. 3. Stay on-topic. Please do not bring outside issues into this thread or derail the conversation into totally unrelated issues. Please use other more appropriate threads if they exist. 4. Please be understanding of the passion others bring to their position. You are very unlikely to "convert" anyone to your point of view. If you disagree with someone and conversation is going nowhere, please disengage and agree to disagree. We want this conversation to remain constructive and open for posting, so people who disregard these guidelines may be subject to immediate one-day bans to give them time to cool their heads. If things spiral out of control, the thread may be locked again to give the staff time to issue infractions/bans and clean-up the mess. Please, please help us to keep this discussion thread civilized, even though this is a very touchy issue for many right now.
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2012-12-16, 19:01 | Link #498 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 40
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2012-12-16, 19:10 | Link #499 |
blinded by blood
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Don't be disingenuous. For one, that Bushmaster is a civilian variant. It is not capable of full-auto or 3-shot-burst firing. It's no different than any other semi-automatic rifle, except it's black and has a synthetic stock and a pistol grip.
Don't commit the "evil black rifles" fallacy. There's absolutely no difference between that rifle and an equivalent Browning in .223 chambering with wood furniture and engravings of leaping stags in a field. It's aesthetics and appearance only. I can quite easily take a standard Ruger Mini-14 with a wooden stock and fore from my local sporting goods store and buy a bunch of aftermarket crap for it to make it look "tacticool" just like that Bushmaster. There are legitimate uses for these firearms. Just because one wouldn't hunt with them doesn't mean they cannot be used for other purposes, such as competitive sport shooting, recreational target shooting and home or personal defense.
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2012-12-16, 19:13 | Link #500 | |
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Neither is hunting the only legitimate use of firearms. |
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