Abilities and Technologies: Speculation based on Science, Metaphysics, and Magic

[LevelSeven]

Spoiler for doom:

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

OK, then let me rephrase my stance. The amount of power gained from a body modification intentionally designed to power up the subject is proportional to the degree of body modification. The amount of power gained from naturally occurring or body characteristics or body modifications not designed to power up the subject has no relation to the degree of body modification.

Majins are intentional. Mjolnir was intentional. Terra was intentional. Power-wise Majins >>> Mjolnir >>> Terra, thus the same should be the case for the degree of body modification. Since Majins look more human than Mjolnir, we can assume that all the differences exist on a cellular or even molecular level and are quite considerable.

Cendrillion was not intentional. Under the new stance, she doesn't count. Fiamma and Acqua have natural abilities that make the degree of power they gained from their modifications impossible to measure, so we can't use them either.

There, fixed. You shouldn't have any more objections now.

nopw, no objections found

I'd like to meet these people so I can enlighten them.

time will tell more, i hope we will get a better look at majin powers after the story starts to deal with the real-gremlin-majins

If he didn't have it prepared vs Kanzaki and the Amakusa, why would he have it prepared against Thor, assuming it exists?

maybe because he didnt see them as such a hugh thread that he would need to use every attack of his arsenal? well, im sure that rune magic can create such a spell, but it would have his own rules and limitations which are never really explained since magiv is so vague

But he didn't have Mjolnir then. What I'm saying is that if he can use his Lightning Blades (ie. when he has backup from Mjolnir), he can also use his super strength, even in Almighty mode. Nothing in the text forbids it.

only theoretical:
mijölnir is strengthen his eletrical output, which means that he can shoot 2km lightning blades, maybe i oversaw it but did it strenghten other parts of his powers too? like strength (the part in NT6 where thor fought agaisnt touma),

because i would think that it sounds more logical to say that mijölnr is only letting him borrow her "powers" which strengthens his lightning blades instead of powering up his whole lighting god mode, and the almighty mode would only be able to use the "borrowed power" (the lighting blads)...

but this is only my speculation

But it also takes some time to notice that you're being attacked, some time to realize where the attack is coming from and some time to start dodging. Even for a Saint, that time is not 0.

not for saints, i know that mach1 wouldnt give such speeds, but the fantasy-being with half of the speed of light

Furthermore, it gets worse if they're moving. In that case, before they change direction, their own speed would work against them when an attack suddenly appears in front of them.

mmmhhh, i would say that not only the movement of their bodys is strengthened, kanzaki or acqua wouldnt be able to navigate if their senses was like that of a normal human, they need to have enhanced body functions too

Well, his nerf currently is that he doesn't have Mjolnir.

yeah...

Whatever. The moment I brought in Sygin, the GRS vs Gremlin argument ended. I have no reason to keep on arguing over a 10%.

such a broken char

EDIT:
actually, i have a question, if misakis ability is to control moisture wouldnt this make her power into a side form of acquakinesis? AND hwo could she create barriers for the misaka network if her powers wasnt based on electricity?

[The One Above God]

Not sure if it's right to post this here but...oh well.

Regarding Fraulein Kreutune's information eating ability, would it be possible for her to eat the internet? I'm not quite sure whether I understood her power that much so...Anyway, I'm planning to re-read that part (I'm already at NT1...again) so sooner or later I might just get a better understanding of her abilities.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by The One Above God

Not sure if it's right to post this here but...oh well.

Regarding Fraulein Kreutune's information eating ability, would it be possible for her to eat the internet? I'm not quite sure whether I understood her power that much so...Anyway, I'm planning to re-read that part (I'm already at NT1...again) so sooner or later I might just get a better understanding of her abilities.

you seem to be mistaken something, Fraulein ability is to reproduce the information and attempt evolution through the information like she learn how to move her hand, the eating part is simply the mean, for example with LO case, she didn't eat LO to because she want LO power, but to replicate her brain to access Misaka network to get all the information, so in the Internet case, she would likely eat some sort of access function to access the Internet rather than try eating it.

[The One Above God]

Originally Posted by dragon1412

you seem to be mistaken something, Fraulein ability is to reproduce the information and attempt evolution through the information like she learn how to move her hand, the eating part is simply the mean, for example with LO case, she didn't eat LO to because she want LO power, but to replicate her brain to access Misaka network to get all the information, so in the Internet case, she would likely eat some sort of access function to access the Internet rather than try eating it.

I see....thanks for that

[Doom_Paperclip]

All that said, Fräulein Kreutune probably could eat wifi signals and the like. After all, she ate an incorporeal information entity (cockroach colony!Yakumi Hisako) just fine. It just wouldn't do her any good without the functions to decrypt that data.

Spoiler for @LevelSeven:

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

maybe because he didnt see them as such a hugh thread that he would need to use every attack of his arsenal? well, im sure that rune magic can create such a spell, but it would have his own rules and limitations which are never really explained since magiv is so vague

Oh, but we have plenty of information. Rune magic is, if anything, one of the better elaborate forms of magic in the series. What we know about runes is that they are flexible and easy to deploy. All you have to do is form the runes into words corresponding to spells you want cast and just place them wherever, no complicated setup is required. The potency of your spell increases as a factor of how many runes you deploy, to the point in which an untalented magician like Slappar from the Norse SS was able to create a spell that could threaten a Saint like Kanzaki by employing millions of copies of just one rune. Conversely, if you destroy the runes, the spell connected to them disappears.

That said, Acqua doesn't carry millions of rune cards. Creating a spell powerful enough to oppose Thor's lightning blades is impossible for him. It would be another issue if he had time to arrange the runes to construct a temple, multiplying their effectiveness like the Amakusa did for Stiyl when they were rescuing Orsola, but in this scenario he wouldn't have the time to that.

only theoretical:
mijölnir is strengthen his eletrical output, which means that he can shoot 2km lightning blades, maybe i oversaw it but did it strenghten other parts of his powers too? like strength (the part in NT6 where thor fought agaisnt touma),

because i would think that it sounds more logical to say that mijölnr is only letting him borrow her "powers" which strengthens his lightning blades instead of powering up his whole lighting god mode, and the almighty mode would only be able to use the "borrowed power" (the lighting blads)...

but this is only my speculation

Thor's belt which grants him super strength is connected to the legends of Mjolnir. Specifically, in the original myths the belt was required to wield that hammer. It is almost certain that whenever Thor receives help from Mjolnir, it also lets him use his super strength as well.

not for saints, i know that mach1 wouldnt give such speeds, but the fantasy-being with half of the speed of light

mmmhhh, i would say that not only the movement of their bodys is strengthened, kanzaki or acqua wouldnt be able to navigate if their senses was like that of a normal human, they need to have enhanced body functions too

OK, lets assume that Saints have reflexes a thousand times sharper than humans. This is a generous estimate, since Saints are only hundreds of times faster than humans (the speed of sound being less than a hundred times the speed of a running man). The smallest human reaction times on record are around 0.1s. Even if we assume that they can react within 0.0001 seconds, moving at supersonic speeds means they would move at least 3 cm before they had a chance to react. If five lightning blades appeared 0 cm in front of them, moving in the opposite direction, even if they managed to negate their forward momentum the very instant they reacted, they would still take some serious damage. Having the top 3cm of your flesh burned off is no laughing matter.

EDIT:
actually, i have a question, if misakis ability is to control moisture wouldnt this make her power into a side form of acquakinesis? AND hwo could she create barriers for the misaka network if her powers wasnt based on electricity?

Well, in actual fact it has been shown that a similar power working through similar means actually can influence water on a macroscopic scale if the user is worked up enough. It just doesn't happen with any degree of control.

As for the Misaka network, while her powers aren't based off electricity, they do control bioelectricity indirectly, resulting in pretty much the same effects. The mechanism of her power doesn't matter here, only the results.

[SimoHalo]

@doom

I've read your argument for Thor, but I don't think that he could use his arc blades while in Almighty mode.

Lightning God Thor and Almighty Thor are two different "entities", and while we will probably never know if this is the case, Almighty Thor didn't use the Belt of Strength against Touma, probably because the Belt of Strength belongs to "Lightning God" Thor and not "Almighty" Thor.

[Fellen]

Originally Posted by SimoHalo

@doom

I've read your argument for Thor, but I don't think that he could use his arc blades while in Almighty mode.

Lightning God Thor and Almighty Thor are two different "entities", and while we will probably never know if this is the case, Almighty Thor didn't use the Belt of Strength against Touma, probably because the Belt of Strength belongs to "Lightning God" Thor and not "Almighty" Thor.

In that case the question would be how fast can he change between ''Almighty'' and ''Lighting God''. If it takes less than 0.0001 seconds then he would still be able to defeat Acqua.

[SimoHalo]

Originally Posted by Fellen

In that case the question would be how fast can he change between ''Almighty'' and ''Lighting God''. If it takes less than 0.0001 seconds then he would still be able to defeat Acqua.

Of course, I simply wrote it down because the fight between Thor and Touma got me thinking, if Thor was using the Belt of Strength Touma would've been reduced to fine red mist. Probably, since he has tanked some shit.

[Fellen]

Originally Posted by SimoHalo

Of course, I simply wrote it down because the fight between Thor and Touma got me thinking, if Thor was using the Belt of Strength Touma would've been reduced to fine red mist. Probably, since he has tanked some shit.

Thor does want fighting experience so maybe he wanted to see can Touma counter his Almighty mode in some way, since crushing Touma instantly wouldn't give him any.

[SimoHalo]

Originally Posted by Fellen

Thor does want fighting experience so maybe he wanted to see can Touma counter his Almighty mode in some way, since crushing Touma instantly wouldn't give him any.

Also true, maybe we will learn more about Thor in future novels. Well I hope so at least, since he is awesome, and I liked him and Touma running around

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by SimoHalo

@doom

I've read your argument for Thor, but I don't think that he could use his arc blades while in Almighty mode.

Lightning God Thor and Almighty Thor are two different "entities", and while we will probably never know if this is the case, Almighty Thor didn't use the Belt of Strength against Touma, probably because the Belt of Strength belongs to "Lightning God" Thor and not "Almighty" Thor.

With due respect, I would appreciate it if you made sure you knew all the aspects of an argument before adding to it. LevelSeven already made that exact argument and I already disproved it a few posts back.

[SimoHalo]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

With due respect, I would appreciate it if you made sure you knew all the aspects of an argument before adding to it. LevelSeven already made that exact argument and I already disproved it a few posts back.

Ah sorry, didn't see that, I only saw the piece where you said that using the arc blades + the Almighty power would net Thor a clean win

[Doom_Paperclip]

^It's all right. These things happen when an argument spans several pages. If anything, i should apologize for snapping at you. In any case, here's the proof that Lightning and Almighty powers can coexist:

Originally Posted by Volume NT10

“This is all I have. From beginning to end, it’s nothing but this. With Mjölnir’s support, I can add in the fusion blades and make it a little more acrobatic, but this is all I have now. To be blunt, this is your chance. You’ll never have a better opportunity.”

Even with that incomplete power, he had fought over one hundred Gremlin members and defeated them all unscathed. Even if he enjoyed attacking at his enemy’s weak points, he had still been taking on almost the entire organization that had caused so much chaos in the world.

It is outright stated he could add the blades with Mjölnir’s support. In case there were any doubts about how to interpret that sentence, the text later specifies that at the time, Thor's power was incomplete. This is why Thor claimed that it was Touma's best chance, because Thor still wasn't at his peak.

[SimoHalo]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

^It's all right. These things happen when an argument spans several pages. If anything, i should apologize for snapping at you. In any case, here's the proof that Lightning and Almighty powers can coexist:

It is outright stated he could add the blades with Mjölnir’s support. In case there were any doubts about how to interpret that sentence, the text later specifies that at the time, Thor's power was incomplete. This is why Thor claimed that it was Touma's best chance, because Thor still wasn't at his peak.

Ah nice catch, but another question that has been bugging me for a while, but what did Gungnir destroyed in NT9?

The narration says:

Originally Posted by Volume NT9

In other words, the instant that lance left Othinus’s hands, the world would be blown to pieces.

Time returned to normal.

Kamijou once more felt space spread out around him.

Does that mean that Othinus destroyed the "world" (as in planet Earth) or the "universe", since the narration implies that the "world" includes also galaxies?

[dniv]

Okay, I have a question about omnipotence.

Omnipotence means the ability to do anything right? Does having omnipotence mean that you can't improve at how you do any specific task, or does it mean that you can achieve anything, but you could possibly achieve it in a better manner? There is a difference between being able to achieve anything anyone could come up with, and being able to achieve it in a manner that can't be beaten even by an individual who has "perfected" or verily honed their own way of doing that one thing.

If omnipotence means that you can't improve at how you do any specific task, then can an omnipotent person IMPROVE their absolute limits? Isn't that a contradiction? On the other hand, if an omnipotent person is someone who is defined to pursue any task in a corresponding perfect manner, then the omnipotent person is incapable of pursuing tasks in a less than perfect manner. If one argues, that the perfect manner of pursuing the task from their perspective is pursuing it in a less than perfect manner from my perspective, then it still doesn't answer, how they could pursue tasks in a less than perfect manner from their own perspective (all the while maintaining their omnipotence so they aren't allowed to temporarily get rid of some of their memories or abilities to try to cheaply get around this argument).

What bothers me most about omnipotence isn't that it's unreasonable to assume that feats more complex than what we can think about can be achieved; rather, the idea that it would be impossible for an omnipotent being to improve seems absurd. If one lacks the ability to improve, then they can't be omnipotent. This is me trying to disassemble levelseven's version of omnipotence which goes past logic.

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by dniv

Okay, I have a question about omnipotence.

Omnipotence means the ability to do anything right? Does having omnipotence mean that you can't improve at how you do any specific task, or does it mean that you can achieve anything, but you could possibly achieve it in a better manner? There is a difference between being able to achieve anything anyone could come up with, and being able to achieve it in a manner that can't be beaten even by an individual who has "perfected" or verily honed their own way of doing that one thing.

If omnipotence means that you can't improve at how you do any specific task, then can an omnipotent person IMPROVE their absolute limits? Isn't that a contradiction? On the other hand, if an omnipotent person is someone who is defined to pursue any task in a corresponding perfect manner, then the omnipotent person is incapable of pursuing tasks in a less than perfect manner. If one argues, that the perfect manner of pursuing the task from their perspective is pursuing it in a less than perfect manner from my perspective, then it still doesn't answer, how they could pursue tasks in a less than perfect manner from their own perspective (all the while maintaining their omnipotence so they aren't allowed to temporarily get rid of some of their memories or abilities to try to cheaply get around this argument).

What bothers me most about omnipotence isn't that it's unreasonable to assume that feats more complex than what we can think about can be achieved; rather, the idea that it would be impossible for an omnipotent being to improve seems absurd. If one lacks the ability to improve, then they can't be omnipotent. This is me trying to disassemble levelseven's version of omnipotence which goes past logic.

Let me say that 'If being omnipotent means being unable to improve which means that should be the same as perfect, If that's that case then how do you define perfect?'

My thought's - If Magic God's were perfect wouldn't that just be subjective? If we have no absolute measuring stick we can only assume what a Perfect Magic God would be.... Othinus was trying to become a 'Perfect Magic God' no? but I'd much rather believe her trying to get to state were she wouldn't fail for a single purpose.
There are many things out there beyond simple understanding to label something truly omnipotent.

Well that's my two cents.... lol

[Doom_Paperclip]

There are two types of Omnipotence. The first is logical, or limited, Omnipotence. This is defined as the ability to achieve anything within the confines of basic logic. Thus wiping out the Universe is fine, but making a stone so heavy you cannot lift it is not. This version cannot improve itself.

The second type is true, or absolute, Omnipotence. Here, you can do anything, including the things you can't. You can make a sandwich so big you cannot eat it, then eat it anyway. You can improve yourself more than infinitely. You can own more than everything and less than nothing at once. Logic no longer matters. Things need not be equal to themselves; you can have statements that are both true and false, neither true nor false or have a third value of smarmy. Indeed, the very rules by which logic operates can be twisted at will.

At this point, human brains just break. Our thought processes are founded on logic. It isn't always very good logic, but we do need logic of some form to understand a concept. Thus something superior to logic cannot be understood by man (unless, of course, an absolutely Omnipotent being chooses to make it understandable). Trust me when I say that the more you think of it, the more lost you become.

In any case, it doesn't matter in TAMNI, because Magic Gods are not Omnipotent, absolutely or otherwise. The text says they wield infinite possibilities, but it never uses the word "Omnipotent" to describe them. The distinction is important. Infinity is not necessarily all-encompassing. There are infinite natural numbers, but pi is not among them. Magic Gods are nigh-Omnipotent, but they still have things they cannot do, even within the confines of logic. If that weren't the case, they wouldn't need to hatch complicated plans to get what they want.

PS: @SimoHalo; Gungnir did indeed destroy the Universe.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

There are two types of Omnipotence. The first is logical, or limited, Omnipotence. This is defined as the ability to achieve anything within the confines of basic logic. Thus wiping out the Universe is fine, but making a stone so heavy you cannot lift it is not. This version cannot improve itself.

The second type is true, or absolute, Omnipotence. Here, you can do anything, including the things you can't. You can make a sandwich so big you cannot eat it, then eat it anyway. You can improve yourself more than infinitely. You can own more than everything and less than nothing at once. Logic no longer matters. Things need not be equal to themselves; you can have statements that are both true and false, neither true nor false or have a third value of smarmy. Indeed, the very rules by which logic operates can be twisted at will.

At this point, human brains just break. Our thought processes are founded on logic. It isn't always very good logic, but we do need logic of some form to understand a concept. Thus something superior to logic cannot be understood by man (unless, of course, an absolutely Omnipotent being chooses to make it understandable). Trust me when I say that the more you think of it, the more lost you become.

In any case, it doesn't matter in TAMNI, because Magic Gods are not Omnipotent, absolutely or otherwise. The text says they wield infinite possibilities, but it never uses the word "Omnipotent" to describe them. The distinction is important. Infinity is not necessarily all-encompassing. There are infinite natural numbers, but pi is not among them. Magic Gods are nigh-Omnipotent, but they still have things they cannot do, even within the confines of logic. If that weren't the case, they wouldn't need to hatch complicated plans to get what they want.

PS: @SimoHalo; Gungnir did indeed destroy the Universe.

I understand your point and agree with you, but I want to clarify that even with the Limited version of Omnipotence which can do anything, it should still be able to improve... After all, if you can do anything within the bounds of reason, then you should be able to improve your method of executing anything within the bounds of reason. After all, what can be accomplished within the bounds of reason varies over time...

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by dniv

I understand your point and agree with you, but I want to clarify that even with the Limited version of Omnipotence which can do anything, it should still be able to improve... After all, if you can do anything within the bounds of reason, then you should be able to improve your method of executing anything within the bounds of reason. After all, what can be accomplished within the bounds of reason varies over time...

you clearly misunderstanding the nature of Omnipotence, one of it aspect is which known as Omniscience = all knowing, disregarding time or space, how can you improve anything when the best absolute method was already before you ??? whether it's inherent or total Omniscience, when you inquire the knowledge about the method, every single method within the bound of logic is already present, and since you are an Omniscience, there is absolutely no knowledge that could make your method better.You are assuming that omnipotence changes over time based on how logic increased over time, but that's a big mistake, the logic already there, it's just that human have yet to discover it, just because we don't have concise knowledge about how Big Bang work doesn't mean that it's impossible to find it.

[Miraluka]

Almighty =\= Omnipotent

Volume.4 says only the Almighty can do such feats.