romantic friendship vs. Yuri

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Straightforward love triangle and 'normal' approach equals fanservice now?

That's the very opposite of fanservice, in my opinion. It's putting believable and solid storytelling first, ahead of any fanservice frills. Like you wrote - no fetishism, no bullshit. In other words, no fanservice.

If it's entertaining and doesn't take from the story... fanservice is good. If it's entertaining it's good

Originally Posted by Nicaea

Well, most of the japanese demographic is male, do I'm not really surprised about the lack of full blown yuri, nor am I surprised by the reasoning that it's more acceptable to tease around with yuri.

Which is why it's a good thing.

Originally Posted by Irenicus

Excessive yandere lesbians seems to be largely a fetishized or "comic" element in mainstream series otherwise not involving yuri, no?

Yet for some reason most anime producers are extremely reluctant to actually do yuri series, or establish real romantic relationships between female characters. Even Sakura Trick pulled that BS in the end. Uh-huh.

Doujins are absurdly plentiful, but actual yuri series don't sell that well and yuri authors are farther than the mainstream than BL by a distance. Yuri magazines keep falling out of business, too.

There seems to be some sort of barrier here between the otaku mainstream and honest portrayals of lesbian relationships, even through the idealized tropes of yuri. I'm tempted to speculate on homophobia and Japanese culture, but I'm not sure I'm actually equipped to do so.

I doubt homophobia is releveant and even if it is... if simply not seeing things that doesn't relate to you makes you homophobic, then I guess I'm homophobic against yaoi... and for me... it doesn't matter, yes we need more yuri, but there's nothing wrong with ambigious shoujo ai...

It's cuter to me, it's more interesting, and for that reason I feel we need just as much of it as we do yuri... and I don't really care if it's a missed oppurtunity to talk about lesbian issues, cause I don't care....

bottom line
entertaining=good
not entertaining=bad

[Akito Kinomoto]

Entertaining =/= good. Differentiate please.

[Eragon]

Anime is overflowing with positive portrayals of lesbians and their relationships anyway, amirite ?


I'm so glad western media and its audience doesn't have this apathetic outlook. O wait

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

Entertaining =/= good. Differentiate please.

But it's way more important than things like social implications and morals

Originally Posted by Eragon

Anime is overflowing with positive portrayals of lesbians and their relationships anyway, amirite ?

Basically, yea, there's nothing homophobic about yuri anime... at all... niether the yuri or the subtext is homophobic. I can't speak on yaoi, since I'll never ever see one, but for yuri, you'd have to be pretty hardcore social justice warrior to find something offensive

[Irenicus]

Please don't use "social justice warrior." Even if you mean well or have a point, using that term labels the user as belonging to the hallowed clique of the fashionably anti-feminist, the hipster reactionary, the oppressed-but-actually-privileged white male. It's an insidious term that permits racism, sexism, and classism to survive in the younger generation.

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

IT DID WHAT NOW

...stuff. Remember at the end when it tried to explain what one of the main characters was supposed to think of the relationship?

Imma stop here because spoilers.

Originally Posted by Eragon

I'm so glad western media and its audience doesn't have this apathetic outlook. O wait

It actually gets more and more interesting each year. LGBTQ presence and portrayals in mainstream media is growing in both number and sophistication since the naive days of Will and Grace. Even hip-hop culture, historically homophobic, got into the fun with Jamal and his boyfriend in the new series Empire, the "hip-hop Macbeth" (heh).

Legend of Korra also did something fun with one of their pairings.

[Darthtabby]

The hinting at yuri thing is basically a form of fan service in my opinion. I don't necessarily mind it, but it would be nice if it actually led into a serious relationship a little more often.

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

Please don't use "social justice warrior." Even if you mean well or have a point, using that term labels the user as belonging to the hallowed clique of the fashionably anti-feminist, the hipster reactionary, the oppressed-but-actually-privileged white male. It's an insidious term that permits racism, sexism, and classism to survive in the younger generation.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...tice%20warrior
No it's not....
And to be honest, anybody who could find anything homophobic about yuri fits the definition right here.
And it also perfectly describes anyone who thinks anime is sexist.

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

The hinting at yuri thing is basically a form of fan service in my opinion. I don't necessarily mind it, but it would be nice if it actually led into a serious relationship a little more often.

Eh, I don't care either way about serious portrayls of lesbian romance. However, it's not just fanservice to have yuri subtext
If you don't believe me watch Noir... If you count that as a yuri, it's the greatest yuri ever made... but it isn't yuri really.

Spoiler:

Chloe is definitely in love with Kirika, but the relationship between Kirika and Mirielle, and Altena and Chloe are rather ambiguous. It's debateable what went through Kirka's mind when Chlose kissed her. While Chloe clearly is in love with her, Kirika's perception of it is very undefinable.

All of that adds tremendous depth to it. In my opinion, making it an actual yuri would have taken away from it. I think the relationship was perfect the way it was, and making it yuri would have not been as interesting. But it's clear, no matter how you interpret it, Kiraka and Mirielle love each other, but how they do is up to the viewer

[Darthtabby]

In that case, you're pretty much branding anyone who tells the truth a Social Justice Warrior, because anime is sexist. I enjoy it anyway, but people should be able to point out the truth without getting called names for it.

I didn't really get all that into Noir, but what happened in that show is not the kind of thing I'm talking about here. I'm talking about all the light teasing hints of yuri that appear in so many shows these days. I'm not saying that shows need to make exploring lesbian relationships a core focus. Frankly, I'm inclined to agree that the better yuri relationships are in shows that aren't specifically about yuri. But seriously, with so much teasing I'd like to see a few more of these relationships develop into actual romances. I'm pretty sure with good writers such relationships could be compelling just as other types of relationships in anime can be compelling.

[Eragon]

SJW used un-ironically lmao. Lately, I've been finding out this forum is filled with GG supporters and hipster anti-feminists.
The entire idea of lesbian subtext is bullshit and utter pandering to the male audience. You don't see hetero subtext listed as a genre do you ? Its like, here are two girls who have amazing chemistry do all the things couples do but, with the added bonus that they are not a couple! Because they are both girls! Ugh.

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

In that case, you're pretty much branding anyone who tells the truth a Social Justice Warrior, because anime is sexist. I enjoy it anyway, but people should be able to point out the truth without getting called names for it.

I've never seen one that's sexist. Maybe DearS, but that's it. At least, I've never seen one with a sexist message. As for "objectification" I don't consider sexuallization of women to be sexist. There's a difference between sexist and sexiest. If objectifying women is sexist, then Free! is sexist again men. But yea, I've never seen one anime that I think promotes sexism

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

But seriously, with so much teasing I'd like to see a few more of these relationships develop into actual romances. I'm pretty sure with good writers such relationships could be compelling just as other types of relationships in anime can be compelling.

I agree... I think both are good. Teasing it just to turn you on, or making canon romance, or just having it to establish a female characters bisexuality.... all are equally good. Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is one of my favorites. Haruhi's clearly hinted to be in love with Kyon, but she still finds time to sexually molest Mikuru on a daily basis.... ahhhh....

Originally Posted by Eragon

SJW used un-ironically lmao. Lately, I've been finding out this forum is filled with GG supporters and hipster anti-feminists.
The entire idea of lesbian subtext is bullshit and utter pandering to the male audience. You don't see hetero subtext listed as a genre do you ? Its like, here are two girls who have amazing chemistry do all the things couples do but, with the added bonus that they are not a couple! Because they are both girls! Ugh.

But lesbian subtext isn't a genre, it's a trope... And there is romantic subtext but not canon romance in heterosexual anime such as one week friends or Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. In fact, practically every harem anime does that with all the girls who aren't picked. And if the anime ends with none of them being picked, then it happens with all of them.

And if done right, romantic friendship or subtext can be done better than most romance. Now if it's there just for fanservice, fine... No big deal, but if it's done properly and used to create more complexity, then it can be amazing. Noir used this very well, and so did Ga Rei Zero. Chuunibiyo had moments like that, but they weren't nessasary, however, it was still very cute. And a lot of people just simply prefer heterosexual anime, but like seeing cute or hot yuri stuff... I'm one of them... But I respect both canon and subtext yuri, or even stuff that boarders between friendship and yuri

What's a GG supporter

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Eragon

utter pandering to the male audience.

Why are people saying that as if it was a horrible thing? Is it a problem with pandering in general (in which case you can find it in 90% of anime series) or is it a problem specifically and only when it's pandering the male audience?

What's a GG supporter

GG stands for "GamerGate". I'm not sure if SJW was invented in that context, but it certainly was used a lot there.

[Akito Kinomoto]

@ silversongwriter
People aren't miffed for the instances romantic friendship isn't done well, they're rattled for it happening with such frequency and intensity that the lack of love declaration can get pretty damn jarring. Umi Monogatari, Nanoha, Madoka pre-Rebellion, Hitohira, Negima!, and many, many more all have excellent romantic friendships, but all of them are intense in feelings to the point where the lack of declaration makes no sense, sometimes even throwing a guy to separate them at the last minute. The problem isn't quality so much as it is something some people personally do not like, because

1) it's denying the 'cuteness' that's actually been built-up.
2) that this happens to girl-girl relationships specifically, combined w/ the current social stigma around same-sex couples, and it becomes hard for others not to feel like maybe, just maybe, the treatment is slightly out of whack; how often do we see 'bait and switch hetero'?
2.1) 'bait and switch hetero' did happen in this one show I'm thinking of, but it's honestly just insulting.
3) We're not talking about instances like Haruhi or Lucky Star where it's clearly there for fanservice.

I stopped watching the Umi Monogataris, Madokas, and even Strike Witches for 'omg yuri subtext!!1' because the instances of not confession, throw in a guy somewhere, and ect. are too frequent not to feel like my intelligence and social awareness wasn't being insulted. Mind you, I still enjoy shows like them, but more for their execution. I have all but stopped reading into why the bait and switch or the non-confession happens so often. And discussions like these remind me of why I stopped being a yuri fan, just in terms of how 'including yuri alone will probably get me to like something.'

Maybe that gives you an idea of some of the grievances here. Honestly, I feel like I'm about to taste my breakfast again.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Why are people saying that as if it was a horrible thing? Is it a problem with pandering in general (in which case you can find it in 90% of anime series) or is it a problem specifically and only when it's pandering the male audience?

I think the issue is less the fact the pandering exists and more like the pandering itself not really making sense.

[Sagitta Luminis]

They're either just close friends or actual lovers, they can't be something in between. When you tease a relationship, people will expect a relationship. Imagine a situation when a boy and a girl act all lovey dovey when suddenly one of them is revealing "oh no, we're actually just friends. I'm in love with someone else". I bet you that everyone would call bullshit in that situation. And the argument that "that's how girls act" is invalid, never me or my friends ever acted the way anime portrays romantic two-girls friendship.

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

@ silversongwriter
People aren't miffed for the instances romantic friendship isn't done well, they're rattled for it happening with such frequency and intensity that the lack of love declaration can get pretty damn jarring. Umi Monogatari, Nanoha, Madoka pre-Rebellion, Hitohira, Negima!, and many, many more all have excellent romantic friendships, but all of them are intense in feelings to the point where the lack of declaration makes no sense, sometimes even throwing a guy to separate them at the last minute. The problem isn't quality so much as it is something some people personally do not like, because

1) it's denying the 'cuteness' that's actually been built-up.
2) that this happens to girl-girl relationships specifically, combined w/ the current social stigma around same-sex couples, and it becomes hard for others not to feel like maybe, just maybe, the treatment is slightly out of whack; how often do we see 'bait and switch hetero'?
2.1) 'bait and switch hetero' did happen in this one show I'm thinking of, but it's honestly just insulting.
3) We're not talking about instances like Haruhi or Lucky Star where it's clearly there for fanservice.

I stopped watching the Umi Monogataris, Madokas, and even Strike Witches for 'omg yuri subtext!!1' because the instances of not confession, throw in a guy somewhere, and ect. are too frequent not to feel like my intelligence and social awareness wasn't being insulted. Mind you, I still enjoy shows like them, but more for their execution. I have all but stopped reading into why the bait and switch or the non-confession happens so often. And discussions like these remind me of why I stopped being a yuri fan, just in terms of how 'including yuri alone will probably get me to like something.'

Maybe that gives you an idea of some of the grievances here. Honestly, I feel like I'm about to taste my breakfast again.

I think the issue is less the fact the pandering exists and more like the pandering itself not really making sense.

I guess I don't care about bait and switch hetero cause I think it's hot. Also, relationships are complex, even if you're making a heterosexual anime, it's just cute to put some yuri subtext in it. Plus, I find it cuter because I just think friendship is cuter than lesbianism, and when it boarders inbetween, it's even cuter and if done right interesting

And I care nothing about how homosexuals are portrayed in the media.

[Sagitta Luminis]

I honestly can't help but think you're trolling us, Silver. I hope I'm wrong.
The problem isn't with cuteness - one of the reason yuri fans like yuri is because it's cute. We just want some affirmation and to know that our expectations aren't being messed around with.

[Jan-Poo]

@Akuma Kinomoto
I personally have a very different perspective, I'm among the people that thinks that too many cases are seen through what are colloquially labeled as "yuri goggles". I don't understand why it is so hard to accept that two persons of the same sex could fell extremely close to each other and mutually be the most important and loved person of the other without any kind of sexual attraction being involved.

There's a lot of cases where people in my opinion jump too easily to the conclusion that characters are lesbian or gay simply because they can't possibly think that such level of intimacy can exist between heterosexual persons.

Such cases have been reported and had been present in western literature as well, they are not stupid, they are neither impossible to exist.


Oh and BTW this isn't even limited to yuri, it works for BL as well. Just think of Reinhard Von Lohengran and Kircheis. Neither of them was gay, neither of them was even suggested to be gay, the latter actually always was stated to be in love with the former's sister. But their friendship was nonetheless undeniably stronger than a normal friendship.

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Sagitta Luminis

I honestly can't help but think you're trolling us, Silver. I hope I'm wrong.
The problem isn't with cuteness - one of the reason yuri fans like yuri is because it's cute. We just want some affirmation and to know that our expectations aren't being messed around with.

Well... I have no problem with either. And there does exist relationships that boarder between platonic and romantic love, and those relationships should be explored to. Plus, if an anime is more marketable as a striaght romance, but even more marketable to guys by adding yuri subtext, that's even better

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

@Akuma Kinomoto
I personally have a very different perspective, I'm among the people that thinks that too many cases are seen through what are colloquially labeled as "yuri goggles". I don't understand why it is so hard to accept that two persons of the same sex could fell extremely close to each other and mutually be the most important and loved person of the other without any kind of sexual attraction being involved.

There's a lot of cases where people in my opinion jump too easily to the conclusion that characters are lesbian or gay simply because they can't possibly think that such level of intimacy can exist between heterosexual persons.

Such cases have been reported and had been present in western literature as well, they are not stupid, they are neither impossible to exist.

Agreed, it comes from a very black and white view of love

[Akito Kinomoto]

@ jan-poo
There's a point where it stops being Yuri goggles though. Like someone else said, when you tease a relationship, people expect a relationship. If a boy and girl were subject to this, people would call bs.

Reinhard and Kircheis never shared a bed though.

[Eragon]

"I don't understand why it is so hard to accept that two persons of the opposite sex could feel extremely close to each other and mutually be the most important and loved person of the other without any kind of sexual attraction being involved"

Two can play this bullshit game.

And the thread creator just seems to be the typical homophobe from that second-last post of theirs. Welp, no point continuing this 'discussion'.

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

@ jan-poo
There's a point where it stops being Yuri goggles though. Like someone else said, when you tease a relationship, people expect a relationship. If a boy and girl were subject to this, people would call bs.

It depends on how seriously it's taken. It can be done right and done wrong. It should be more clear when they're being ambiguous. There's an art to doing that right. It has to be unclear for it to work, and if it is clear and it still never goes anywhere, there should be a reason why