2012-08-07, 00:05 | Link #1021 |
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Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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Japan never had the necessary steel-producing capacity or capabilities for a full industrial revolution, and in fact has had to always rely on imports to feed the economy. Knowledge is nothing without either the infrastructure or the resources, and Sengoku Japan has neither of those. The reason why we have the legends of the nihontos requiring hundreds of hours of work was because of the resource constraints.
As for the architecture stuff..... Korea used the modular assembly method for at least a thousand years. Nothing new, really. It just shows how backward Japan really was on the technological front for centuries. |
2012-08-07, 00:10 | Link #1022 | |
100% Tsun... 0% Dere
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Yeah but once again... you didnt have girls like katsue or inuchiyo who have strength of serveral men, can throw a row of men across the room from a single swing of a naginata. Oh and if u can build cannons... u can build boilers... and im fairly sure cannons exist. |
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2012-08-07, 00:13 | Link #1024 | |
100% Tsun... 0% Dere
Join Date: Jan 2012
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But trust me... 1 high school boy from the future with serveral good smiths, and a lord who loves barbarian technology is more then enough to kick start the industrial revolution. |
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2012-08-07, 00:23 | Link #1025 |
Portable Dude Mk. II
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Assuming they have at least enough (while limited) resources to produce at least a half-complete prototype but can work the basics of the stuff they need... or rather, I still wonder if that is possible.
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2012-08-07, 00:52 | Link #1029 | |||
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Agree with Sumeragi here, an more extreme example would be that we can go back to to 1600s' and tell them how to make atom bomb and they won't be able to make them. As Sumeragi said, Japan's technology was limited at time, there iron work was low-quality. Granted, they do have some notable blacksmith, but there aren't enough of them to mass-produce anything high quality. (otherwise there would meidou everywhere.) It's gun powder was not develop as well, in fact one of main reason they failed in their Korean expedition was because they can't match up to Ming Dynasty (who came in to the aid of Korea) technologically. Also compare to other Daimyo, Nobunaga was already more advanced technologically due to him being open about European and Ming culture and their knowledge. Yet he can only muster 3,000 arquebus in the Battle of Nagashino, in which many historians believe that number to have been exaggerated. Either way, considering that it was believe that he already own 300 arquebus when he united his clan and Owari around 1559. It means that it took him additional 16 years to get his hands on 2,700 arquebus which includes him purchasing them from foreign traders and having his people replicate them themselves. Simply put, they had trouble of replicating existing technology how will they be able to create stuff they never even heard of or seen? Of course, if they keep working on it and not afraid of failures, they might be able to make those paper bullets in 5-10 years, but we are still talking about years. It was not until around Tokugawa establish his Shogunate that their militaristic technology level was comparable to the European and Ming dynasty, but even that was arguable as the technology they obtained was still fairly outdated. BTW, speaking of Katsuyori. Contrary to popular opinion, Battle of Nagashino wasn't nearly as lopsided. The battle actually lasted whole day, and while Takeda for was completely wiped out, the casualties on Oda/Tokugawa's side was pretty huge as well. O/T already has numbers advantage, estimated around 38,000 against 15,000 from Takeda. While Takeda loss around 9,000-12,000, O/T's casualty count was around 6,000. Also, O/T force was acting in defensive, so all things consider, that battle was pretty much won due to O/T's number along. Not only that, the record also shows that after the initial barrage, Takeda was still able to reach Oda main camp. The problem was that Nobunaga was using the main camp as decoy and send out mobile troop to take out all the Takeda's satellite comps then gather together and surround the Takeda force. What that mean was that on the main camp side, the battle is a wash off. The highly romanticized arquebus v.s. cavalry, triple-barrage v.s. suicide charge pretty much ends up as a double-KO. This goes back to technology, the arquebus they have at time is incredibly primitive with effective range of about 30-50m (or 100-150ft.) and not very accurate, it also took a long time to re-fill, even with a triple barrage, one,maybe two rounds and the enemy is right on top of you. Nobunaga sets up three lines of defense and all three line were broken through including the main camp. In addition, that loss was not as detrimental as most believe. The loss of troops wasn't as devastating, it was the loss of important commanders and high-level retainers that hurts. But even then, while the loss robbed Takeda clan's ability of going offensive, they are still capable defensively. Katsuyori was still able to keep the clan and his land for 8 more year until internal division within the clan and Nobunaga successfully buying off Takeda retainers one-by-one. Quote:
Speaking of cannons, these are the cannons at time. Sengoku period cannon: 石火矢 Late Sengoku/ Early Edo Period cannon: 大筒 While they got decent power, they are primary made of bronze with rocks as bullet and can only fire about 10-20 times. It's not until around Hideyoshi's death did Hideyoshi able to employ iron-made cannons. As such, they aren't even widely used in siege battle until after Hideyoshi's death in Battle of Sekigahara, almost 20 years after Nobunaga death. Even then they can't be mass produced.
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Last edited by Undertaker; 2012-08-07 at 01:37. |
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2012-08-07, 01:47 | Link #1030 | |
100% Tsun... 0% Dere
Join Date: Jan 2012
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ok wow... i didnt want to go there but u guys are asking me.
The steam engine was invented in 1700's. More like the turn of the 18th century from a pressure cooker which was designed in 1659. Earily steam engines were made from Stone.. and used simple brass / steel / iron pots to build water pressure. Now why is the steam engine so important? It was the start and basis of the industrial revolution because the steam engine was a gateway to manufacturing. Then came assembly plants... which later lead to modular construction. Modular assembly is something which Kaiser introduced: (ask your history teacher if u dont believe me, its US history straight up.) The MC introduced modular construction, which was made popular by Kaizer. Basically ships like everything else was made in one go. They laid down a frame and built the ship up. However Kaizer realized, what if u could build them in pieces and assembled them like a lego at site? This way u would have premade pieces which would come together nicely and in a fraction of the time. Quote:
You keep talking about infrastructure this... infrastructure that, when the raw fact is the infrastructure was built ontop of the steam engine. Not the other way arround. Meaning... the generation does not bring out innovation. Its the Innovation which brings out the generation, hence the term Industrial Revolution. Basically what im saying is, what is discovered, and brought about by technology will fuel the age the current generation is at. And if u really want to try to play history with me.. Heron back i early greece, roughly 10-70AD concieved the notion of a steam engine. He even built toys from them, yet he never realized the practicality and use for a instrument such as a steam engine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria So please dont tell me the japanese cant make a steam engine if Heron could make a toy version of one. And please dont tell me the MC has no way to make pratical use of such invention which Heron was lost at, because the MC knows exactly what a steam engine could produce. Anyhow im done with this history topic. Its a fact, they could make one, the MC obviously knows the potential in what its used for, and he knows exactly how to use it. Which Heron on the other hand was completely lost at what it is capable of. Last edited by aigomorla; 2012-08-07 at 02:03. |
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2012-08-07, 01:57 | Link #1032 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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You're mixing the general concept of the steam engine with the portable one which is necessary for the kind of industrialization you are proposing. Furthermore, Japan does not have the adequate skill, fuel, iron or WATER to build up the system as in what happened in Great Britain. You're looking at only one part and missing the whole picture, something a lot of people also presume.
Also, as I said, modular assembly already existed in Korea. It's nothing really new in terms of the world, just that it was new in Japan. Now, on another topic: I hope Kenshin makes a direct appearance soon. |
2012-08-07, 02:08 | Link #1033 | |
100% Tsun... 0% Dere
Join Date: Jan 2012
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The tank was a JOKE... The steam engine, the stationary kind isnt. Just take a bit of time and READ the history on the steam engine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...e_steam_engine Your saying japan has no infrastructure for the steam engine. Im trying to tell you, the infrastructure develops after someones invented it and used it for practical applications. Basically, the steam engine brought the industrial revolution, not vice versa... Also can u link this about korea having modular construction? (what castle or fort was built modular?) If my korean history serves me correct, they also built everything from one go. All the forts were constructed on site... not off site in pieces and then assembled. Last edited by aigomorla; 2012-08-07 at 02:19. |
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2012-08-07, 02:22 | Link #1034 |
エーレンフェストの聖女
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Dollars
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No no, just continue the history topic. It's highly entertaining
I got one question about Hanbei... in episode 5 (or vol 2?), we've seen that Oda forces are getting distracted by many of Hanbei's plan like stone maze. My question is: is the one who proposed the plan is Hanbei herself or Zenki?
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2012-08-07, 02:26 | Link #1035 |
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Steam Engine: You forgot water. Unlike Europe or continental Asia, Japan does not have the sufficient amount of water supplies to attempt to build a Savery Engine. Furthermore, Japan's coal are the inefficient bituminous coal, so the Newcomen "atmospheric" engine would be even more inefficient. Basically, Japan never had the resources to make a steam-based industrial revolution, having to have imported most of the coal.
Modular assembly: No one builds stone structures off-site. However, since Goryeo, Koreans have been making wooden pieces off-site and just putting them together on-site, where the pieces would click together to form solid structures. Zenki carries out the will of Hanbei, although he does put a bit of twists into what he does (like the mochi thing). He's as crafty and trickery as a kitsune. |
2012-08-07, 02:36 | Link #1036 | |
100% Tsun... 0% Dere
Join Date: Jan 2012
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ummm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_...#Coal_deposits Quote:
Oda would need to control japan to get to hokkaido to get the good coal. |
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2012-08-07, 02:40 | Link #1037 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
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As for steam engine, I don't doubt they might be able to make some primitive prototypes. However, I do question whether they are capable of building engines that are powerful enough to make the concept practical or have the level of skill/technology available to build the system or devices that can make use of that engine. But in any case it'll still need good amount of time for Oda clan to harness it, and frankly they don't have that time because of Honno-ji. If you are sticking to the LN, they got even less time with the accelerate timeline. But of course, if that was really what author wanted he could simply disregarded all this and go straight to Oobu a la Sakura Taisen. EDIT: Sumeragi's info pretty much shows that Nobunaga would have a hard time building one even if he wanted to. But really, the question for me is can steam engine be useful in combat, after all, they are still in war and steam engine might just be a useless project with the way that everything are still a mess at that time. It might not be worth it to even attempt to build one at least not until Hideyoshi's took over.
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2012-08-07, 02:42 | Link #1038 | |
Basileus Basileōn
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2012-08-07, 02:58 | Link #1039 | |
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But also at same time the problem still lies that there are only limited skilled smith, and due to closed-door their technology was once again at a halt so the production doesn't really go up. Similar to the way Late-Ming and Qing Dynasty were which eventually allows Europeans to not just over-leap the Chinese and leave them in the dust.
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action, alternate universe, ecchi, fake harem, fantasia bunko, ga bunko, harem, historical, romance, sengoku jidai, shounen, true harem |
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