Shin Megami Tensei IV (Nintendo 3DS)

[Von Himmel]

and to add to that, Sanat (next DLC) is actually far more useful too At least we get Uriel with his 15x phys attack.. but then again, I keep hearing that he's not supposed to be archangel anymore because of vatican problem or something

I had more trouble with the Fiends.

I...I can't even find one orz

[Angelic Cross]

Originally Posted by Von Himmel

and to add to that, Sanat (next DLC) is actually far more useful too At least we get Uriel with his 15x phys attack.. but then again, I keep hearing that he's not supposed to be archangel anymore because of vatican problem or something

I feel this bias pretty much cheapens the whole "you get to choose your own path" deal. If the developers aren't going to even bother making the routes somewhat equal both in mechanics and story, they shouldn't even bother. Gameplay-wise there's no good reward incentive for the neglected side and story-wise it makes the arguments of the more developed route feel cheap because the neglect with the other route reduces the whole thing to a strawman or a joke.

Originally Posted by Von Himmel

I...I can't even find one orz

Huh, really? Were you looking at the exact locations? I could usually get into a fight within 2-3 hours on average (the shortest was actually within 40 minutes with Red Rider) of reloading (not a problem while I'm doing something else, like watching a show).

[Von Himmel]

Huh, really? Were you looking at the exact locations? I could usually get into a fight within 2-3 hours on average (the shortest was actually within 40 minutes with Red Rider) of reloading (not a problem while I'm doing something else, like watching a show).

Yeah spend a couple of hours before I decided to quit. I'm planning to hunt for them in my 2nd Neutral route after completing this law route first. Do I really need to load game saves or do I just need to go to different map to reset RNG? :s

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Angelic Cross

Spoiler for Pre-alignment lock spoiler:

Jonathan route split being shorter than Walter's and not unlocking a special fusion

This is false. You have to take Jonathan's side on NG+ to unlock Seraph.

[Angelic Cross]

Originally Posted by Von Himmel

Yeah spend a couple of hours before I decided to quit. I'm planning to hunt for them in my 2nd Neutral route after completing this law route first. Do I really need to load game saves or do I just need to go to different map to reset RNG? :s

When I was talking about loading, I was referring to going into one of the DLC maps and then exiting from there. All you need to do to reset the RNG is go to a different area and come back. Also, once you fight the Fiend, if you lose, PAY CHARON. He'll send you back just a few steps from the spawn point and the Fiend will still be there, even if you save before refighting and then reload that save.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

This is false. You have to take Jonathan's side on NG+ to unlock Seraph.

I was talking more about a non-NG+ run.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Angelic Cross

I was talking more about a non-NG+ run.

It doesn't matter. You used that event as an example of how Law has no perks over the alternative when that clearly is not true.

Additionally, upon your arrival in Blasted Tokyo it is established that both choices happened at the same time in the game.

[Angelic Cross]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

It doesn't matter. You used that event as an example of how Law has no perks over the alternative when that clearly is not true.

Additionally, upon your arrival in Blasted Tokyo it is established that both choices happened at the same time in the game.

I didn't say it had no rewards. I said there wasn't an equal good reward incentive for the routes. Why bother going one route if it has shittier rewards than the other? And what does both of them happening have to do with what we're talking about? It doesn't exactly solve the problem of being lesser in content compared to the other route, does it?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Angelic Cross

I didn't say it had no rewards. I said there wasn't an equal good reward incentive for the routes. Why bother going one route if it has shittier rewards than the other? And what does both of them happening have to do with what we're talking about? It doesn't exactly solve the problem of being lesser in content compared to the other route, does it?

I don't see how it's a shittier reward. Both unlock a special fusion.

[Angelic Cross]

Actually, you're right, Seraph's not a bad reward for Law route because it isn't a reward for it at all. According to the Japanese wiki and GameFAQs you can still get the Seraph quest even after going Chaos post-Jonathan route in New Game+.

So let's take a look:

NG+: Seraph, Izanami, Karttikeya, Astaroth, Ogun, Takemikazuchi, Tokisada

NG+ Chaos ONLY: Asherah, Ishtar, Mother

Law Only (DO NOT NEED NG+): Mastema, Azazel

Chaos Only (DO NOT NEED NG+): Demiurge

Neutral Only (DO NOT NEED NG+): Red Rider

So that's 4 maximum Chaos-exclusive demons counting New Game+ and 2 for Law. Neutral basically gets more quests (and demons you can get with those quests), more story and more equipment (plus arguably the strongest weapons), plus shares demons with Chaos route, but which aren't available with Law. So my point still stands. Law route got the short-end of the stick when it comes to rewards.

[Von Himmel]

DLC is out.

I didn't have Riot Gun and all that but thankfully I still keep +8 heaven's bow on Flynn. The motherfucker keeps blasting away my demon in first turn so I'm forced to kill him solo Still managed to do it though.. he's kinda stupid with him spamming Gaea Rage. What I did was to use heaven's bow and then heal in another press turn.

..Took a couple of tries though since I keep choosing the wrong answer

[Angelic Cross]

Originally Posted by Von Himmel

DLC is out.

I didn't have Riot Gun and all that but thankfully I still keep +8 heaven's bow on Flynn. The motherfucker keeps blasting away my demon in first turn so I'm forced to kill him solo Still managed to do it though.. he's kinda stupid with him spamming Gaea Rage. What I did was to use heaven's bow and then heal in another press turn.

..Took a couple of tries though since I keep choosing the wrong answer

Pretty much what happened to me eventually, though my original lineup all had Riot Gun (the other two were just there for Doping and healing the extra space) Michael lasted longer with Archangel's Law and with 2 hits of Antichthon from Flynn (though after Sanat's question, he got an unlucky (for me) Gaea Rage on Michael even with Smirk on him).

I'm kind of pissed though, that my attempts to make a Kannuki Throw-specced Metatron just won't pick up Charge. I'm starting to think Charge and Concentrate are the lowest priority skills for Fusion Lite. Even friggin' Agi was higher than Charge.

[Angelic Cross]

. . .

Seriously?!? I just beat the last DLC boss, the supposed hardest superboss in the entire game, in TWO FREAKING TURNS!

. . .I feel rather cheated.

EDIT: It was on the first try too.

[Shadow5YA]

With or without DLC exclusive demons and skills? There is a difference.

[Von Himmel]

I beat it in 6 turn since I take my time with dark charge and charge.

..It's kinda funny though since I found Sanat to be stronger. He rarely used his almighty attack (in fact, he only used it once) and it missed and mostly he only did nothing so it's pretty easy.

[Angelic Cross]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

With or without DLC exclusive demons and skills? There is a difference.

Without. My first try was a test phase with regulars demons to figure out a strategy for my actual run with a DLC skills team.

EDIT: Oh wait, my Physical dudes did have Pierce Physical, but otherwise, that was the only DLC skill I had and they had rather high Luck, which was enough to get me a bunch of crits.

Originally Posted by Von Himmel

I beat it in 6 turn since I take my time with dark charge and charge.

..It's kinda funny though since I found Sanat to be stronger. He rarely used his almighty attack (in fact, he only used it once) and it missed and mostly he only did nothing so it's pretty easy.

I think it's because unlike the Fiends like Red Rider, Masakado's Shadow doesn't blitz you with his Almighty skills. Plus I got lucky with crits in my two turns.

EDIT 2: OH WTF?!? WHAT THE EFFIN...UGH! My save is gone! What the heck?

[Von Himmel]

^
How is it possible? Did you turn off your DS when saving or something?

Oh and I managed to make my dream team for fun. The team supposed to be balanced alignment (Asmodeus is neutral since he works with Mastema but looks like a chaos demon! orz), but I forgot that Uriel isn't an archangel anymore :

Lilith:
Ice Pierce
Drain Gun
Refrigerate
High Ice Plroma
Concentrate
Ice Pleroma
Spirit Focus
Antichton

Uriel:
Pierce phys
Repel Force
Bloody Glee
Dark Energy
Charge
High Phys Pleroma
Phys Pleroma
Kannuki Throw

Asmodeus:
Fog Breath
Agidyne
Occult Flash
Drain Ice
Guardian's Eye
Curse Thy Enemy
Drain Elec
Drain Force

I must say that I'm pretty lucky with asmo fusion lite I'm planning to change Uriel with something more fun to play, but it'll be hard to transfer all the necessary skills for it

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Angelic Cross

Without. My first try was a test phase with regulars demons to figure out a strategy for my actual run with a DLC skills team.

EDIT: Oh wait, my Physical dudes did have Pierce Physical, but otherwise, that was the only DLC skill I had and they had rather high Luck, which was enough to get me a bunch of crits.

Isn't Pierce Physical a passive? And with Masakado normally resisting everything including Almighty, having Pierce property on your skills mean you're doing double the damage you would normally do without.

I do agree that for a "berserk" Masakado, he wasn't very aggressive at all. He tended to waste a lot of his Press Turns just doing Walk Slowly and Aim Carefully... though I think the challenge was supposed to be him tanking everything with resist everything and high HP.

[Von Himmel]

Uh, he's more like draining everything and resisting almighty. I think you actually need to do some incense farming to beat him without pierce.

[Angelic Cross]

Originally Posted by Von Himmel

^
How is it possible? Did you turn off your DS when saving or something?

I had a phone call to pick-up so while it was loading I closed the DS to put it into sleep mode. I open it up, and the top file was gone. It had all of the demons I raised up to beat Masakado's Shadow. My other save file was several hours (and fusions...all of the anti-Masakado and Masakado test team fusions...) behind. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF....

Oh and I managed to make my dream team for fun. The team supposed to be balanced alignment (Asmodeus is neutral since he works with Mastema but looks like a chaos demon! orz), but I forgot that Uriel isn't an archangel anymore :

Lilith:
Ice Pierce
Drain Gun
Refrigerate
High Ice Plroma
Concentrate
Ice Pleroma
Spirit Focus
Antichton

Uriel:
Pierce phys
Repel Force
Bloody Glee
Dark Energy
Charge
High Phys Pleroma
Phys Pleroma
Kannuki Throw

Asmodeus:
Fog Breath
Agidyne
Occult Flash
Drain Ice
Guardian's Eye
Curse Thy Enemy
Drain Elec
Drain Force

I must say that I'm pretty lucky with asmo fusion lite I'm planning to change Uriel with something more fun to play, but it'll be hard to transfer all the necessary skills for it

*crosses arms* Asmodeus is a Tyrant, mang. Dude's Chaos as heck. Interesting team, though. Once I've gotten everything back (I'm refusing everything again), I'll be sticking Guardian's Eye and Curse Thy Enemy on Victor.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Isn't Pierce Physical a passive? And with Masakado normally resisting everything including Almighty, having Pierce property on your skills mean you're doing double the damage you would normally do without.

I do agree that for a "berserk" Masakado, he wasn't very aggressive at all. He tended to waste a lot of his Press Turns just doing Walk Slowly and Aim Carefully... though I think the challenge was supposed to be him tanking everything with resist everything and high HP.

Yeah, Pierce Physical is a passive, so you can have Madness Nails (or as I had hoped with my unused-for-its-purpose anti-Masakado's Shadow Metatron, Kannuki Throw) get through Masakado's Drains. It was going to be a two-part test. First run would have had dudes with Pierce Physical and non-DLC Physical attacks; second run would be the magic pierces with the non-DLC mutli-hits and severe elemental spells, both to test which way I could get the furthest before I got murdered. Of course, Masakdo goes down my first run. I mean, yeah, it would be difficult without Pierce, but even with those defenses, though, they really should have made him more aggressive. With the Press Turn system and VIT not being in the game, Masakado's Shadow would have been tough even with the DLC stuff if he'd been offensively-minded as the fiends. He really should have been a challenge even for a DLC-optimized team.

[Angelic Cross]

You know, as I'm going through my DEX build playthrough, a thought occurred to me as I saw through Hugo supervising the digitization of the monastery's archives. For all that Chaos accuses Law of being static and their side being about change and progress, it's Law that tends to advance science, technology, engineering and mathematics every time they appear throughout the franchise. Lets look at just the mainline games, for example:

Spoiler for For main SMT series:

In SMT I, they've used nukes (obviously), and in the second half of the game the Law troops consist of robots, cyborgs and posthumans (which requires really advanced science and engineering).

In SMT II, they go even further with genetic engineering, cloning, cybernetics, robotics, artificial intelligence and whatnot. Plus they have virtual reality, and by endgame a generational spaceship and what amounts to a Gundam colony laser.

In Strange Journey, the Three Wise Men have their own version of the DSP and easily install it into the most advanced power armor built by humanity. Plus they managed to load information into Arthur at a number of points in the game.

SMT IV, we get again a robot army and giant cocoons that can terraform a devastated planet. Plus the 4 archangels pretty much approve scavenging and using any useful, non-threatening to their plans tech from Tokyo (as seen with the digitization project I mentioned above) before they decide to wipe out everything below ground.

Chaos, on the other hand, seems to be satisfied with beating the crap out of each other like warlords in Somalia and stalling any sort of scientific and technological progress, all in the name of being TEH STRONGEST. The last time I remember any Chaos dudes even bothered with technology were

Spoiler for DeSu 1 possible spoilers:

Naoya and Belberith

in DeSu 1. And Lucy sure didn't make any contributions to that particular project.

TL;DR Between Law and Chaos, Law has a much, much higher chance of actually advancing as a civilization and expanding out into space than Chaos.