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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 791 63.74%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 163 13.13%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 95 7.66%
7 out of 10 : Good 67 5.40%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.37%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 18 1.45%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 0.56%
3 out of 10 : Bad 7 0.56%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 0.32%
1 out of 10 : Painful 72 5.80%
Voters: 1241. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-07-13, 14:04   Link #5761
azul120
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
True, there are some hypocritical and self-serving aspects of what Ougi did here. However, you do have to give some credit to Schniezel, and the overriding fact that in the first place there were no other options. The real factor in the greater scheme of things at that stage of the story was the unveiling of Fleija. Remember, Schniezel's original intention was not even to negotiate--he set up a meeting so he could demand that Zero be handed over via the threat of Fleija. With Ougi's request of Japan, there might have seemed to be an illusion of freedom there; but really, from the moment the Fleija was first fired in the skies over Tokyo, the military campaign against Britannia was effectively over.
What you say is true, except the way things played out briefly afterwards, namely Charles headed towards Ragnarok, and Schneizel agreeing he was unfit to continue as emperor. Had Zero actually been allowed a say, things might have been different. Who's to say that had he not been put on gunpoint, he wouldn't have been able to once more figure out a proverbial Third Option?

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I think, if you want to understand the specific shape and meaning of Code Geass' ending, you have to look at Zero: Requiem in more personal terms. Lelouch's 'atonement' was not for causing death or using Geass in any general sense--it is a very specific mirror and repentance for the particular sin of disgracing Euphemia. As I know you understand very well, at that point in time Lelouch had lost practically everyone. However, the one person right there, pointing his sword at him, was that friend of his past, Kururugi Suzaku. How did Lelouch reconcile with Suzaku? By showing him, in the sincerest way possible, that he was truly sorry for what he had done to Euphemia.

To skip forward a little to what you mentioned in your next paragraph, this is Lelouch's fulfillment of "shoot, only if you are prepared to be shot also". The end of Code Geass S1 was about Lelouch turning Euphie into a symbol of hatred, framing her to rally the Japanese people towards total rebellion. In the same way, and as another of the major parallels between CG's two seasons, the conclusion of R2 was about Lelouch allowing himself in turn to be turned into a symbol of hatred, once again becoming a rallying point, but this time towards a better and peaceful tomorrow. It's the specific sin of completely distorting the utter core of Euphie's purpose and existence which Lelouch is atoning for, and it is a sin specific to Lelouch and his Geass alone which no one else can parallel. That's why this had to be the way in which Lelouch concluded everything--Lelouch's regret, and Suzaku's agony, simply could not have been ended in any other way.
Lelouch could have rebutted it with "evidence" that the Euphie who came out and massacred the Japanese was an impostor, thus clearing her name. Lelouch would have done a lot more for her legacy this way, instead of killing more people just to supposedly have her name be forgotten, which basically amounted to killing in her own name, something she would not have approved of.

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If you want to talk about the specific mechanics of it:

- As to the degree of worldwide destruction--there are two issues here. First is the matter of defeating Schniezel, which was an unavoidable conflict regardless of whatever path Lelouch had chosen. Whether as Zero, leader of the Black Knights, or as Lelouch vi Britannia, the 99th Emperor, Fleija would have to be stopped. To that end, what you can see from the show is that Lelouch bet everything on Nina and creating a Fleija-jammer. For the sake of that: doing a geass take-over of Britannia; separating her from their friends at Ashford; stalling for time at the expense of thousands of soldiers' lives and even Britannia's capital Pendragon; all of that was strictly necessary. So, essentially, this level of destruction in the show's endgame was pretty much necessary--you can say that maybe Lelouch would've been able to take down Schniezel without developing the Fleija-canceller, but frankly that's only speculation.
A lot of that was a result of him setting everyone else against him, not just FLEIJA. At the very least, he could just pull an I Surrender, Suckers! on Schneizel while Nina got to work on the device.

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- The second issue is with regards to the destruction Lelouch facilitated outside of what he needed to beat Schniezel, and the differentiator between himself and Charles or Schniezel as a symbol of hatred. With regards to this, it would be helpful to remember one of Lelouch's catchphrases, "destruction precedes reconstruction". Lelouch wanted to be 'a destroyer and creator of worlds'--the point here is that Lelouch understands that, in order to create something truly new, you must destroy something else. The 'rivers of blood' Lelouch spilt, as an oppressive emperor, were for this purpose. To explain, first consider the established traditions and aggressive elements of old Britannia: the nobles whose rights C.C. mentions being stripped away, and the aristocrats who'd built fortunes from Britannia's system of exploitation and prejudice. These are the internal elements of Britannia which would continue to promote conflict, no matter the state of the rest of the world. Destroying these families, institutions, traditions and rules are thus a necessary step towards creating a peaceful tomorrow. We can presume, if there were any elements like these in other countries which were nearly as bad as they were in Britannia, that during the few months when Lelouch reigned over the whole world, he probably destroyed those too.
The destruction would end at him destroying the old Britannia, namely, the Britannia represented by Charles and Schneizel, and its traditions. He could have immediately started off and also taken part in the reconstruction as a good leader. He had the opportunity to do this as soon as he eliminated Charles!

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Next, consider what Lelouch means by "chains of hatred". Again, we have to be specific here--this is specifically the bad blood between the major powers and oppressed colonies, particularly towards Britannia--built up by years of war and prejudice. Britannia, being the largest instigator of conflicts, thus created distrust on the level of the common citizenry of the various nations themselves. In such circumstances, for example, isn't it very obvious that a citizen of the Chinese Federation, say, might hold a prejudice against the Britannian people as a whole? The key point then, here, in what Lelouch did, was that he explicitly seperated himself (and the Britannian leadership) from the Britannian people--by openly oppressing them in front of the rest of the world. This kind of event is something which cannot be fabricated--which is why it was not an option to pin it on somebody else like Charles. Anyway, the point is that it was only by separating the Britannian leadership from the Britannian people was Lelouch able to specifically make himself a convincing symbol of hatred, enough such that the common citizenry of the rest of the world would no longer hate ordinary Britannians. This contribution, especially in light of the simplified power structure in the Code Geass universe where there are few notable organizations aside from the three major powers, would actually go a long way towards making a peace that is actually sustainable. The new face of Britannia being Nunally, and actively cooperating with the EU and CF also working towards reconstruction, and its pretty clear that major conflicts like those which happened before should not exist anymore--at least for a significant period into the future.
Here's what immediately disproves that theory though: people already LIKED Lelouch when he was presenting himself as Emperor of Justice, and had the nobility and the Numbers system abolished with all nations returned. He could paint old Britannia as the antithesis of how society should be run. Besides, as for the chains of hatred, let me reiterate: human nature does not work that way. No group of nations has ever stood united following a given conflict for long. And when Ozymandias tried the same sort of thing in the Watchmen, it only worked for 6 years before people stopped fighting again. In other words, it would be all for naught.

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In the context of Code Geass' world, you don't need to take Lelouch's death to have achieved 'rainbows and unicorns' forever. Simply look at Zero:Requiem as having established a foundation for a firm cessation of conflict between their universe three major powers, and you can very much say it achieved a concrete benefit. There's no need to deny that yes, of course conflict will probably always happen. However, that does not change the fact that through Lelouch's actions, the world is probably very much a better place than it was before.
So you do acknowledge that it isn't a perpetual cessation of conflict. That said, it's still a massive waste of human life, both in terms of the death toll from ZR, as well as Lelouch himself, who would be more useful alive in order to help with the reconstruction.

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Finally:


As far as the 'justice' of Code Geass' ending, and the fate of Lelouch in comparison to that of countless others, I think it would help to think about one thing: the concept Okouchi and Taniguchi have talked about with which they started this story, namely the idea of what is a "modern hero". What makes Lelouch Lelouch?--I would argue that it is probably two things. The first is his ability to acknowledge the truth of reality, not look back, and do what needs to be done. This is what is 'modern' about Lelouch--that he doesn't work on blind idealism, that he understands that sometimes getting his hands dirty is simply necessary, that he can unflinchingly make sacrifices for the sake of the future. However, Lelouch is not simply "modern"--he is also a "hero". In that case, then, if not idealism, what makes Lelouch a hero? In Code Geass' conclusion, and Zero: Requiem, I think that answer is revealed to be "empathy". Lelouch is not simply a self-serving hypocrite who is able to unflinchingly sacrifice others--he is also able, and willing, to sacrifice himself. That's what makes him a real hero, and how the show inequivocably proves where his heart is. Of the rest of the cast, some of them might not quite be so herioc; they might not be quite as competent, or be a bit selfish as is only human. However, it's to those kinds of people that Lelouch has left the world--as it is only right for a hero to do. In the end, it is a fact that not every human can be perfect--even Lelouch wasn't. However, even so, people still do deserve a chance to take a stab at happiness--and in the end, that is exactly what Lelouch gave his life to do.
Except that he didn't need to perform Zero Requiem, which involved sacrificing even more people than he did before, as well as himself. He even said as much to Suzaku when the latter asked if there were other methods. He'd become irrational and unhinged following Nunnally's apparent death and the Black Knights' betrayal. He ended up taking the coward's way out in the end.

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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
I'm just thinking that Lelouch death is perfect ending.
It clearly justify how Lelouch life worked.
As well as how Geass will cursed you to lose everything that important to you one by one until it reached your pillars of existence.
Except that if it weren't for the betrayal, which as I've mentioned earlier, happened for rather unwarranted reasons, it wouldn't have gotten to that point.

Quote:
"He's hated by the world. Why his grave needed to be exist ?"

To satisfy the viewers ?
Having his graveyard is also implicitly means there's someone in this world who is still supporting his ideals.
That's why it makes everything more logical if his body is sent to the sun together with Damocles.
Both of them representing the main cause that makes the world cornered into terror.

( What makes me more surprised is the fact that everyone seems to forgot that is Schniezel who created the Damocles.
Or maybe how everyone didn't realized about how fast Damocles eliminating the Pendragon just when Lelouch commence his attack to Japan )

If there's a logical reason to support him back to live,
I'd like to hear it.
He could have an unmarked or hidden grave.

Moreover, he could be logically resurrected, like in the middle of the fanfic Dirge of Daedalus.

Last edited by azul120; 2011-07-13 at 14:15.
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Old 2011-07-13, 14:58   Link #5762
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Except that he didn't need to perform Zero Requiem, which involved sacrificing even more people than he did before, as well as himself. He even said as much to Suzaku when the latter asked if there were other methods. He'd become irrational and unhinged following Nunnally's apparent death and the Black Knights' betrayal. He ended up taking the coward's way out in the end.
I think we've had this discussion before, but I disagree with this. In my opinion, Lelouch truly believed that what he was doing was the right thing: although he says in Mutuality that there might have been other ways, he doesn't claim they would have required less deaths (just not his own), and when he later finds out that Nunnally is alive and is being comforted by C.C., he tells her that no matter how much he thinks about it, in the end, he always comes to the conclusion that the path he chose "back then" was the correct one.

Zero Requiem was not perfect by any means, but I feel it was not portrayed as something (mainly) bad or a sign that Lelouch was unstable in the show. If anything, he seemed to have overcome a lot of his issues towards the end, though that still doesn't make him infallible.
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Old 2011-07-13, 22:32   Link #5763
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Ah, correction.
Even if the Guidebook implying that, their romantic development is almost zero in the series itself.
I disagree.
I think there is plenty of romantic development between Kallen and Lelouch to imply that he at least is interested in her sexually.

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You're trying to derailing C.C. characters there.
She is not looking for love. If she's just looking for love, why need to leave Mao ?
Look carefully at her question before Lelouch said Witch and Warlock terms.
Because Mao didn't love her.
He was obsessed with her.
Heck he even went so far as to say he was going to chop her up with a chainsaw so he could smuggle her out of Japan.
That's not love Tactics and that's obvious.
Lelouch never treats her that way in either S1 or R2 and in fact in the episode "Cheering Mao" there is another important exchange between CC and Lelouch.
It's at the end of the episode at 21:05 (using the official Bandai ENT Eng Sub):



In that exchange Lelouch promises her "I'll try to fulfill both your wish and my own" at 21:56.
After that CC asks him directly "Is this you comforting me? Taking pity? Or is it...obsession?"

Her only worry at that moment is Lelouch becoming obsessed with her.
After this is when Lelouch says "It's a contract. This time from me to you."
CC puts her hand out and says "Very well. I accept your contract," and then they take hold of each other's hands.
After that the episode ends.

Now, what does ep 15 of S1 have in common with ep 15 of R2, and by extension ep 25 of R2.
Simple.
In ep 15 of S1 Lelouch vows to fulfill CC's wish.
In ep 15 of R2 Lelouch learns her true wish, to be loved as stated at the end of the episode.
And in ep 25 CC, in the back of the cart, says, "the Power of kings brings isolation...that's not quite right is it Lelouch?"

If you follow the events logically it is possible to come to the conclusion that Lelouch is alive.
It was Okouchi that ended any possibility of Lelouch being alive at the end of ep 25 of R2, not the anime itself.

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Or maybe when the battle in Narita is over ? She said that she's glad someone appreciate her.
Actually, CC begs Lelouch to say her name again, "like a lover."
That's called metaphor and it was very clear what Okouchi and Taniguichi were saying in the cave scene.
Remember, Lelouch is the only person that knows CC's true name.
We, the viewers, aren't even told, so it's a secret that only they share.

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But, at S1 Turn 13-- She's prepared to leave Lelouch when remembering Lelouch shown his dependance that implying a romantic touch in her POV.
Are you thinking of another episode?
Because I went through Turn 13 again and didn't find it.
Although, eps 13, 14, and 15 of S1 show firmly Lelouch's love for Shirley.

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I'm just thinking that Lelouch death is perfect ending.
You're certainly entitled to that opinion Tactics.
However, there are many people who do not agree.
While I have no problem with Lelouch dying, I found the entire Zero Requiem to be poorly executed.
Since he died, and thus escaped punishment in my opinion, he took the easy way out (suicide) and that cheapened the character immensely making him look like a coward in my eyes.

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Using theory like he's sleeping or maybe he's hiding, it just really wrong.
Even in logical context or even story context.
Again, that's a matter of opinion.

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In story context,
Look at how Suzaku despise him if he's not taking responsibilty about what he had decided.
Having Suzaku in his side will clearly take him to a strict condition where he's trapped by responsibility.
Look at how he come to angst in Avalon when Lelouch is confused by Nunnally appeareance.
And Again, that's a matter of opinion.
Suzaku tell's Lelouch to "become a hero" at the Kururugi shrine in R2.
We really don't know what he means by that.
It could very well mean that Lelouch is watching over the world he created rather than running away via death.
It's all a matter of world view really.
Neither is wrong or right per se, which is why I saw this anime as having had an open ending until Okouchi made his comment in Continue #42.
It was Okouchi that shut the door on Lelouch being alive at the end of ep 25 of R2, not the anime by itself.

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In logical context,
You spent two months to make sure everyone in this world hate you.
Now you're going to hide. Where are you going to ? Arctic ?
Or maybe-- if you're going to sleep. Why you need to be awake ?
What do you expect if you get awake ?
Which is precisely why you would have to die in public for everyone to see.
Otherwise people might come looking for you.

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I'm not following the series ?
Fine. But the series clearly show this :

Euphimia death :



Rolo death :



Lelouch death



Saying Lelouch is still alive after showing similar symptomps like that,
It's just the same like saying Euphimia and Rolo death is useless.
Especially when their death did really impact the general perspective of the series.
Uh, if Sunrise wants Lelouch to have a Code and retcon him, then I don't care if Suzaku had chopped his head off and it rolled down into Nunnally's lap, he'd come back.

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Clearly showing it by the grave site ?
There is no grave site, there is no grave, there is no tombstone.
In fact.
Suzaku actually does have a grave and a tombstone, yet he's alive.

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If there's a logical reason to support him back to live,
I'd like to hear it.
I told you from the begining of our conversation that I was playing Devil's Advocate.

I'm taking the postion of a member of the Cart Driver's Club even though I don't agree with them.
The reason I'm taking their postion is because they are the largest number of Code Geass fans online.

Here are three pretty interesting articles/blogs about why these people think Lelouch is alive.

Code Geass R2 25 For Dummies, or Its not the horse cart, stupid: The ending explained

Code Geass R2 25: So is Lelouch dead or not?

And the absolute MASTER of the Cart Driver Club, who makes my arguments look pathetic in comparison, is the dreaded Zongetsu.

Here's his argument on MAL (it's actually quite good, wrong, but good).

My Analysis of Lelouch living (by Zongetsu, master of Codes )
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Old 2011-07-13, 23:36   Link #5764
azul120
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I think we've had this discussion before, but I disagree with this. In my opinion, Lelouch truly believed that what he was doing was the right thing: although he says in Mutuality that there might have been other ways, he doesn't claim they would have required less deaths (just not his own), and when he later finds out that Nunnally is alive and is being comforted by C.C., he tells her that no matter how much he thinks about it, in the end, he always comes to the conclusion that the path he chose "back then" was the correct one.
It's safe to assume they would have been less bloody, though. I mean, being the world's worst tyrant is nothing if not Inferred Holocaust. And I've already covered what he did as part of the requiem, which was many, many times worse than whatever happened as part of the rebellion.

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Zero Requiem was not perfect by any means, but I feel it was not portrayed as something (mainly) bad or a sign that Lelouch was unstable in the show. If anything, he seemed to have overcome a lot of his issues towards the end, though that still doesn't make him infallible.
In the show, perhaps, but in Mutuality, his isolation from all the deaths, including the apparent one of Nunnally, have him shaken, and they pretty much appear to be a major cause of the Requiem as a death wish. That he tried to isolate himself with his father for the rest of his life following the betrayal supports this. And let's not forget how shook up he was following Nunnally's sudden reappearance after he was well into the plan.

It's pretty safe to say that had he known she was alive, he would have never started ZR in the first place. Which, along with the betrayal, is one reason why I like the fanfic Changing Course, where the betrayal still happens, but an OC saves him and reunites him with Nunnally. And of course no one gets off easy.
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Old 2011-07-14, 04:04   Link #5765
rinichan
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post

Euphimia death :



Rolo death :



Lelouch death


the pictures are lovely, would you mind putting all the death scenes of other characters for comparisson... or anyone???
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Old 2011-07-14, 05:13   Link #5766
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It's safe to assume they would have been less bloody, though. I mean, being the world's worst tyrant is nothing if not Inferred Holocaust. And I've already covered what he did as part of the requiem, which was many, many times worse than whatever happened as part of the rebellion.
I will not go into the Holocaust comparison, and just point out that Ōkouchi spoke pretty positively about Zero Requiem. Now, "the author is dead" and all that, but nowhere in the show or the side-material is Lelouch portrayed as particularly unstable in regards to ZR, and I'd say it's a valid interpretation that he believed in what he was doing and that in the long-run, it could make the world of CG a better place.

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In the show, perhaps, but in Mutuality, his isolation from all the deaths, including the apparent one of Nunnally, have him shaken, and they pretty much appear to be a major cause of the Requiem as a death wish. That he tried to isolate himself with his father for the rest of his life following the betrayal supports this. And let's not forget how shook up he was following Nunnally's sudden reappearance after he was well into the plan.
Sure, Lelouch didn't take Nunnally's death very well, but he doesn't seem "unstable" to me in Mutuality either, and in the anime, he says Zero Requiem was the correct choice even after Nunnally basically returns from the dead. He certainly still has issues, but they don't define him.

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It's pretty safe to say that had he known she was alive, he would have never started ZR in the first place.
Quite possible, but in the end, Lelouch is only human. Even if he believed Zero Requiem was a valid option, leaving Nunnally behind like that was incredibly hard for him. Perhaps he would have found a better way - who knows, Nunnally might have had something to say on the matter, too -, but perhaps he wouldn't have. I don't think Zero Requiem was perfect at all, but neither do I think Lelouch was just being suicidal and dragging the world down with him. (Something similar goes for Suzaku, by the way. Heck, even C.C. thought ZR wasn't such a bad thing, or she wouldn't have smiled in the end but pitied Lelouch. They might not be geniuses, but they're not dumb, either, and especially in Mutuality, Suzaku seemed to be dealing with his issues okay.)
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Old 2011-07-14, 12:44   Link #5767
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Zero Requim does not have to imply holocaust.

Lelouch just have to geass people into believing he did horrible things without really having to do so.
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Old 2011-07-14, 14:19   Link #5768
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Originally Posted by wredsa View Post
Zero Requim does not have to imply holocaust.

Lelouch just have to geass people into believing he did horrible things without really having to do so.
Here's the problem with that theory: Even if Lelouch did somehow geass millions of people into believing he committed mass atrocities, there'd be no physical evidence to back it up. Eventually people would figure it out.
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Old 2011-07-14, 14:42   Link #5769
azul120
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I will not go into the Holocaust comparison, and just point out that Ōkouchi spoke pretty positively about Zero Requiem. Now, "the author is dead" and all that, but nowhere in the show or the side-material is Lelouch portrayed as particularly unstable in regards to ZR, and I'd say it's a valid interpretation that he believed in what he was doing and that in the long-run, it could make the world of CG a better place.
When I say Inferred Holocaust, I refer to the TVTrope, not the historical holocaust. Now Lelouch may not be portrayed as unstable during the last arc, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't.

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Sure, Lelouch didn't take Nunnally's death very well, but he doesn't seem "unstable" to me in Mutuality either, and in the anime, he says Zero Requiem was the correct choice even after Nunnally basically returns from the dead. He certainly still has issues, but they don't define him.
All it means is that Lelouch seems rather consigned to his fate. Doesn't mean that he's in his right mind. Additionally, at least as far as I remember, he only says in response to C. C. asking whether he hates her given that almost everything that has happened can be attributed to her using him that he doesn't hate her, and that he received the ability to get things done.

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Quite possible, but in the end, Lelouch is only human. Even if he believed Zero Requiem was a valid option, leaving Nunnally behind like that was incredibly hard for him. Perhaps he would have found a better way - who knows, Nunnally might have had something to say on the matter, too -, but perhaps he wouldn't have. I don't think Zero Requiem was perfect at all, but neither do I think Lelouch was just being suicidal and dragging the world down with him. (Something similar goes for Suzaku, by the way. Heck, even C.C. thought ZR wasn't such a bad thing, or she wouldn't have smiled in the end but pitied Lelouch. They might not be geniuses, but they're not dumb, either, and especially in Mutuality, Suzaku seemed to be dealing with his issues okay.)
Lelouch hesitated, big time, when Nunnally reappeared out of the blue, until Suzaku told him to suck it up. And as to why other methods would have been discussed, I refer you to my earlier points about the Zero Requiem being worse than anything that happened during the rebellion.

As for C. C., she isn't always the best judge, as she's been rather detached.
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Old 2011-07-14, 16:19   Link #5770
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
When I say Inferred Holocaust, I refer to the TVTrope, not the historical holocaust. Now Lelouch may not be portrayed as unstable during the last arc, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't.
Ah, sorry. I sort of ran from TVTropes when I noticed it wanted to eat my life. Though the word Humanitarian will just never be the same. I should never have started fangirling Tiir, damn it.

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All it means is that Lelouch seems rather consigned to his fate. Doesn't mean that he's in his right mind. Additionally, at least as far as I remember, he only says in response to C. C. asking whether he hates her given that almost everything that has happened can be attributed to her using him that he doesn't hate her, and that he received the ability to get things done.
Well, I'm not saying my interpretation is the only possible correct one, but I don't at all think it's proven that Lelouch just had a death wish. As for the scene with C.C., I don't remember her asking that in this context - it's the scene where she walks into his room and leans against him. Episode 23, I think, so I suppose I'll look it up once I've studied for the last one of the annoying Exams of Doom.

Quote:
Lelouch hesitated, big time, when Nunnally reappeared out of the blue, until Suzaku told him to suck it up. And as to why other methods would have been discussed, I refer you to my earlier points about the Zero Requiem being worse than anything that happened during the rebellion.
Other methods might not have been enough to beat Schneizel, amongst other things. But I currently don't have the time to read through those posts completely, so I have no idea if that got addressed already. As for the Nunnally part, I'd be more inclined to say that she is what has the potential to make Lelouch unstable. To me, it looks like Suzaku reminded him that there was a reason they chose Zero Requiem, and that this reason wasn't just that Nunnally was dead and they were feeling suicidal.

And yeah, C.C. isn't always the best judge, but I think she's lived long enough to recognize bullshit on that scale when faced with it, and although she was biased in favor of Lelouch, I believe she's not naive or optimistic enough to be happy about something that was nothing but proof of how pitiful he had become.
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Old 2011-07-14, 18:36   Link #5771
wredsa
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Here's the problem with that theory: Even if Lelouch did somehow geass millions of people into believing he committed mass atrocities, there'd be no physical evidence to back it up. Eventually people would figure it out.
The world is a vast place, especially the ocean. All he had to do is convince the dead bodies are gone foreever, it would not be easy/ feasible to dig up the bodies.
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Old 2011-07-14, 21:57   Link #5772
morbosfist
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It wouldn't be possible, much less feasible, to fake a mass atrocity. Bodies take up a lot of space no matter where you put them. Someone will know if they were or weren't killed. It would be downright impossible for one man to brainwash the amount of people required to orchestrate such a fraud without missing someone. The fraud would become obvious the second a "dead" man popped up alive somewhere else. People need to go somewhere, dead or alive.

If they said he committed horrible atrocities, then he did. Rumors are one thing, like families being killed off, but the bigger things couldn't be faked.
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Old 2011-07-14, 22:16   Link #5773
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I will not go into the Holocaust comparison, and just point out that Ōkouchi spoke pretty positively about Zero Requiem. Now, "the author is dead" and all that, but nowhere in the show or the side-material is Lelouch portrayed as particularly unstable in regards to ZR, and I'd say it's a valid interpretation that he believed in what he was doing and that in the long-run, it could make the world of CG a better place.
I would call brainwashing thousands of people, then killing them (and probably hundreds of thousands more) by blowing up a volcano, not just unstable but frankly insane.

As for Okouchi, they had Lelouch preform a Jesus pose, I simply don't agree with them on how they view Lelouch.
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Old 2011-07-14, 22:44   Link #5774
Betteroffer
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
It wouldn't be possible, much less feasible, to fake a mass atrocity. Bodies take up a lot of space no matter where you put them. Someone will know if they were or weren't killed. It would be downright impossible for one man to brainwash the amount of people required to orchestrate such a fraud without missing someone. The fraud would become obvious the second a "dead" man popped up alive somewhere else. People need to go somewhere, dead or alive.

If they said he committed horrible atrocities, then he did. Rumors are one thing, like families being killed off, but the bigger things couldn't be faked.
There was another theory that was discussed some weeks back (forgive me if it was debunked as similarly unfeasible) that basically spun the entire "killing whole families" thing as a deception. The idea was that Lelouch would indeed enforce oppressive laws on people and jail them and their families en masse with the promise of execution for trivial reasons. The trick would be that all of these executions would be scheduled several months down the road, allowing these people to be freed upon the completion of ZR.

Alternately, they could be jailed in conjunction with actual criminals and all of them could just be given life sentences, with Lelouch "randomly" selecting some people to be immediately executed for his entertainment every few days. To be a bit more elaborate, he could fake some evidence and use Geass to make some real criminals look innocent in order to bolster the idea that he really didn't care who he killed.

This would create the image of a tyrant who killed innocent people on a whim, without Lelouch having to trully stoop to such a level. That said, I can't say I believe this is actually the case, as it would have been explained in the show or supplemental material if it were.
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Old 2011-07-14, 22:56   Link #5775
Xander
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It is worth mentioning we are talking about a show where a million people could dress up as Zero and ride an iceberg ship to China.

See, the creators wanted to involve only ten thousand, initially, but after some discussion they ended up deciding to go all out with the stunt. Obviously even the staff knew the idea was ridiculous and unrealistic but after the fact they simply justified it by openly saying "this would only work in anime" in the commentary track.

Why am I bringing this up? If that applies to what was probably the most logistically unrealistic event in the show, I'll let you figure out what that means for any unrealistic logistics in the finale.

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As for Okouchi, they had Lelouch preform a Jesus pose, I simply don't agree with them on how they view Lelouch.
And I simply don't agree with the basis of your complaint either.

If he had been crucified, I'd probably be more willing to share your annoyance, but c'mon...you'd really need to stretch things out and block out all the differences to call that a true "Jesus pose" in the most literal and accurate fashion.

At most I'd call it a brief "Jesus moment" but devoid of any equivalent significance (Lelouch is not innocent or sinless, on the one hand, and his sacrifice merely brought a semblance of peace rather than salvation, on the other). And that's perfectly acceptable in modern visual art.

Besides, Jesus is not the only martyr figure in world history, let alone fiction, and even that pose has been universally employed for years and years in both TV and cinema without necessarily having any related meaning for decades. The similarity is only meant to be fleeting, if that much, in most cases.
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Old 2011-07-15, 00:10   Link #5776
azul120
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Other methods might not have been enough to beat Schneizel, amongst other things. But I currently don't have the time to read through those posts completely, so I have no idea if that got addressed already. As for the Nunnally part, I'd be more inclined to say that she is what has the potential to make Lelouch unstable. To me, it looks like Suzaku reminded him that there was a reason they chose Zero Requiem, and that this reason wasn't just that Nunnally was dead and they were feeling suicidal.
I'd say it was because Lelouch was already in too deep to turn back. Schneizel would call him on it.

Quote:
And yeah, C.C. isn't always the best judge, but I think she's lived long enough to recognize bullshit on that scale when faced with it, and although she was biased in favor of Lelouch, I believe she's not naive or optimistic enough to be happy about something that was nothing but proof of how pitiful he had become.
She was smiling in the end because Lelouch had given her companionship.
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Old 2011-07-15, 01:56   Link #5777
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
There was another theory that was discussed some weeks back (forgive me if it was debunked as similarly unfeasible) that basically spun the entire "killing whole families" thing as a deception. The idea was that Lelouch would indeed enforce oppressive laws on people and jail them and their families en masse with the promise of execution for trivial reasons. The trick would be that all of these executions would be scheduled several months down the road, allowing these people to be freed upon the completion of ZR.

Alternately, they could be jailed in conjunction with actual criminals and all of them could just be given life sentences, with Lelouch "randomly" selecting some people to be immediately executed for his entertainment every few days. To be a bit more elaborate, he could fake some evidence and use Geass to make some real criminals look innocent in order to bolster the idea that he really didn't care who he killed.

This would create the image of a tyrant who killed innocent people on a whim, without Lelouch having to trully stoop to such a level. That said, I can't say I believe this is actually the case, as it would have been explained in the show or supplemental material if it were.
The "killing families" thing is a lot easier to get away with. He wouldn't need to even jail anyone. Rumor alone would do that job. That alone wouldn't get him viewed as a horrible tyrant, though. One has to imagine that putting down any resistance took some time. He probably nuked the hell out of the opposition.
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Old 2011-07-15, 12:00   Link #5778
Tactics
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Originally Posted by rinichan View Post
the pictures are lovely, would you mind putting all the death scenes of other characters for comparisson... or anyone???
Hmm ... May I Out from Topic for a while ?

Most of the Geass characters is killed through KMF battle or massacre at some degree.

I'm taking those because their death is the death that changed CG lines at most aspect ( from my POV )
As well as showing similar symptomps. A blackened eyes and no scene showing they're resurrected after their death.

Spoiler for Thank you:
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Old 2011-07-15, 12:27   Link #5779
Sol Falling
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Age: 29
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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
It is worth mentioning we are talking about a show where a million people could dress up as Zero and ride an iceberg ship to China.

See, the creators wanted to involve only ten thousand, initially, but after some discussion they ended up deciding to go all out with the stunt. Obviously even the staff knew the idea was ridiculous and unrealistic but after the fact they simply justified it by openly saying "this would only work in anime" in the commentary track.

Why am I bringing this up? If that applies to what was probably the most logistically unrealistic event in the show, I'll let you figure out what that means for any unrealistic logistics in the finale.
Oh man, was that how the 'one million Zeroes' thing came about? I raised such a shitstorm over it back when I first saw it that I have to laugh now that I think back over it. Yeah, I see, that really makes sense of some things for me. I think that probably was the point where I started to believe "Code Geass is not a realistic anime".
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Old 2011-07-15, 16:17   Link #5780
wredsa
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
There was another theory that was discussed some weeks back (forgive me if it was debunked as similarly unfeasible) that basically spun the entire "killing whole families" thing as a deception. The idea was that Lelouch would indeed enforce oppressive laws on people and jail them and their families en masse with the promise of execution for trivial reasons. The trick would be that all of these executions would be scheduled several months down the road, allowing these people to be freed upon the completion of ZR.

Alternately, they could be jailed in conjunction with actual criminals and all of them could just be given life sentences, with Lelouch "randomly" selecting some people to be immediately executed for his entertainment every few days. To be a bit more elaborate, he could fake some evidence and use Geass to make some real criminals look innocent in order to bolster the idea that he really didn't care who he killed.

This would create the image of a tyrant who killed innocent people on a whim, without Lelouch having to trully stoop to such a level. That said, I can't say I believe this is actually the case, as it would have been explained in the show or supplemental material if it were.
You mean put in millions of people in jail to be executed one month after ZR. That is another possible scenario.

The reason I feel Lelouch did not commit any real atrocities is because he felt very bad as it is just to use Geass to make people suicide ( most of them were combatants anyway ) so I have difficulty thinking the same Lelouch doing real atrocities.
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