Ichigo and Rukia? or Ichigo and Orihime?

[blue skies]

Hey kids! It's been awhile. I abandoned all hope where this thread is concerned, but I still read it once in a while just for kicks and giggles. But I just had to comment on the excellence of this post:

Originally Posted by ShuiMei

I don't think she's using it as shipping evidence at all, rather she's neutralizing it, which I think is probably the most rational way to look at the scene.

Having Matsumoto say that Ichigo needs both Rukia and Orihime isn't a slight to either "shipping camps." Once you stop looking for romantic connotations in her words, when you think about what she's saying in terms of the themes in Bleach, I think you can see that Matsumoto is most likely just reinforcing the great shounen theme of heroes taking on a lot and therefore needing the support of all his friends to get through it all.

Her comments aren't in regards to what Ichigo thinks of either Rukia or Orihime or how he feels about them, Matsumoto's comments are words of comfort, telling Orihime that though she may have these feelings of jealousy and inadequacy, she's admirable for owning up to them, as well as encouragement, because Ichigo's a stubborn brat who essentially needs all his friends.

So when Matsumoto says that Ichigo needs both of them, she more than likely means it in a way that he needs the support of the people around him. Ichigo needs Rukia and Orihime, he also needs Chad and Ishida too. He needs the support of his friends because he's the quintessential shounen hero with a lot on his shoulders, and he was certainly going through a rough patch at that time, so having the people around him, (like Orihime and Rukia, etc etc.) be there for him is what he needs the most. There doesn't have to be anything shippy about it, so there's no need to discredit Matsumoto, as I don't think she was pushing anything beyond that

I think I need to reread Bleach xD. Honestly, I never thought too much about Matsumoto's speech; it was Inoue's jealousy that I focused on. I initially thought she was telling Orihime that she and Rukia are equally as important to Ichigo. Now that I've given it a tiny bit of thought, I think you're absolutely right. There's not really anything shippy about it, just Matsumoto saying that he needs both Orihime and Rukia, just as he needs the rest of his friends. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that I was just seeing things that weren't there when I first read the manga. Thank you for that lovely, thought-provoking response, ShuiMei.

Don't mind me, guys.

[Hari Michiru]

Originally Posted by ShuiMei

I don't think she's using it as shipping evidence at all, rather she's neutralizing it, which I think is probably the most rational way to look at the scene.

Having Matsumoto say that Ichigo needs both Rukia and Orihime isn't a slight to either "shipping camps." Once you stop looking for romantic connotations in her words, when you think about what she's saying in terms of the themes in Bleach, I think you can see that Matsumoto is most likely just reinforcing the great shounen theme of heroes taking on a lot and therefore needing the support of all his friends to get through it all.

Her comments aren't in regards to what Ichigo thinks of either Rukia or Orihime or how he feels about them, Matsumoto's comments are words of comfort, telling Orihime that though she may have these feelings of jealousy and inadequacy, she's admirable for owning up to them, as well as encouragement, because Ichigo's a stubborn brat who essentially needs all his friends.

So when Matsumoto says that Ichigo needs both of them, she more than likely means it in a way that he needs the support of the people around him. Ichigo needs Rukia and Orihime, he also needs Chad and Ishida too. He needs the support of his friends because he's the quintessential shounen hero with a lot on his shoulders, and he was certainly going through a rough patch at that time, so having the people around him, (like Orihime and Rukia, etc etc.) be there for him is what he needs the most. There doesn't have to be anything shippy about it, so there's no need to discredit Matsumoto, as I don't think she was pushing anything beyond that

That pretty much sums it up folks!

If Ichihime fans consider that shipping evidence, then we'd have yaoi pairings such as Ichigo-Ishida, Ichigo-Chad, Ichigo-Renji etc. Wouldn't that be odd?

[yuuk1]

I just <3 ShuMei's posts...! Almost all of them are 99.5% true, in my eyes. They're also very insightful.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Hari Michiru

That pretty much sums it up folks!

If Ichihime fans consider that shipping evidence, then we'd have yaoi pairings such as Ichigo-Ishida, Ichigo-Chad, Ichigo-Renji etc. Wouldn't that be odd?

I don't usually get on anyone's case but this post needs a response. Hari Michiru..... do you think you can summarize in your own words what ShuiMei is saying?

I'm being a little harsh on you to call you out like this, but the purpose here is to have you shift your thinking at a new direction. You can't always think things in terms of black-and-white because if you do, then your scope to understand anything will always remain limited. No one should limit themselves by encasing one's thought process to one set of ideas. It is terribly unfair to oneself otherwise because one is only hindering one's growth.

[Hari Michiru]

Originally Posted by monir

I don't usually get on anyone's case but this post needs a response. Hari Michiru..... do you think you can summarize in your own words what ShuiMei is saying?

I'm being a little harsh on you to call you out like this, but the purpose here is to have you shift your thinking at a new direction. You can't always think things in terms of black-and-white because if you do, then your scope to understand anything will always remain limited. No one should limit themselves by encasing one's thought process to one set of ideas. It is terribly unfair to oneself otherwise because one is only hindering one's growth.

First of all, my post wasn't serious.

ShuiMei is basically saying that Matsumoto helps Inoue realize that Ichigo needs ALL his friends, not just Rukia. And that Matsumoto's words aren't going towards either 'shipping camps'.

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by yuuk1

lol... the thread gets nowhere...! It goes in circles then to something utterly ridiculous...!

I think that was probably self evident before this thread hit 50 pages

[HaNa-san]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

It doesn't really matter how much she's interacted with any of them, because they're fictional characters and all their dialogue comes from the same source. This story isn't narrated, so the mangaka speaks through the characters to explain details to the readers. The issue here is not whether Matsumoto is a credible source, but what Kubo was trying to say by having her speak those words to Orihime.

Then you should know better than any one that orihime's jealousy is not there to show her insecurities.. kubo has written her jealousy issue numerous times and all of them have indicated that the close relationship ichiruki has which can be considered more than a normal friendship.. also, we have to take her observation very seriously since she's one of the most people who spent time around ichiruki and who has been investigating the nature of their relationship..

You know I have seen many manga/anime and even dramas that have been discussing this kind of situations where the girl or boy who is in love, watches the person they love very closely and notice that he/she is in love with another girl/boy and it turned out to be true all the times.. it's not something new seriously.. the idea of her insecurities that make her sees things that are not excited, comes from her fans.. we didn't see anything indicates this idea in the manga as she is no that close to ichigo in their relationship except being his nakama just like the rest of his group..so where we suppose to take her insecurity thing out from? Being in love doesn't means becoming blind about everything around you, only if that means her love drives her personality crazy to a level she starts to suspect every relationship in her nakama group which is false for sure..

And we have to consider all the manga as whole before jumping into any sentence or words that have been stated by any character of the manga.. even if the writer kubo wants us the readers to take every word from his characters, we have first to look at her/his actual affect and role overall the story.. did that character has a backup to her/his claim, what kind of a relationship he/she has to the main characters? Did the manga prove his/her claim later in the story?

So we know that matsumoto said, ichigo needs both orihime and rukia to his side.. but did we see it later as a romantic thing for orihime side.. no.. all we know is that ichigo and her friends care about her and they ALL came to rescue her from aizen hand.. also we know that mastumoto didn't play any kind of role to ichigo/rukia/orihime relationship.. she just was there to fight the enemies alongside the shinigami.. her role in their relationship didn't change anything.. it just gave orihime some encouragement and support to her personality in general at that time..

The same can be said about nell..nell doesn’t know ichigo that well and what kind of the relationship he has with orihime and rukia.. she was there to give orihime an enough encouragement to support ichigo, she didn't talk about ichigo/ulq fight in depth.. so we shouldn't take her words as an absolute thing when we know she missed half of the incident in her speech..

As for grimmijaw sentence (you came to fight me or something like that), it's different why?

1) it's not the first time he talks or meets ichigo.. they have history.
2) grimmijaw have done many thing to ichigo to make him wants to revenge him (rukia's injures, beating up ichigio..etc)
3) they both consider the others as a rival where they were so eager to fight each other again (the third time)

Therefore, once we know the nature of the character who's talking and showing some important information particularly if it's related to the main characters relationship, we should know how much his/her speech can be trusted or not.. and kubo is clever enough to show these kind of aspect to his characters and the real purpose of their speech..

great post as usual ShuiMei

[debbiechan]

Originally Posted by HaNa-san

You know I have seen many manga/anime and even dramas that have been discussing this kind of situations where the girl or boy who is in love, watches the person they love very closely and notice that he/she is in love with another girl/boy and it turned out to be true all the times..

Not a big fan of J-dramas and K-dramas here but the scenario is as old as the hills in story-telling. Many readers refuse to accept Orihime as the belle who pines from unrequieted love simply because they can't see any other closure for this particular story other than the fairytale ending.

Being in love doesn't means becoming blind about everything around you, only if that means her love drives her personality crazy to a level she starts to suspect every relationship in her nakama group which is false for sure..

Orihime isn't jealous of Chad's closeness to Ichigo, Ishida's, anyone's. She isn't jealous of Urahara's mentoring, his family's importance to him. She's only jealous of one girl the way one would be of a romantic rival.

The same can be said about nell..nell doesn’t know ichigo that well and what kind of the relationship he has with orihime and rukia.. she was there to give orihime an enough encouragement to support ichigo, she didn't talk about ichigo/ulq fight in depth.. so we shouldn't take her words as an absolute thing when we know she missed half of the incident in her speech..

Besides that, Nell may serve another purpose. Orihime couldn't talk herself into cheering Ichigo on her own. That could have easily been done with a little interior monologue. Someone who barely knew Ichigo needed to remind Orihime that Ichigo was the good guy, that he was there to protect, and that Orihime should appreciate his efforts.

Therefore, once we know the nature of the character who's talking and showing some important information particularly if it's related to the main characters relationship, we should know how much his/her speech can be trusted or not.. and kubo is clever enough to show these kind of aspect to his characters and the real purpose of their speech..

They are reliable and unreliable narrators in literature. POVs serve various purposes. Manga doesn't use much text so what's there has to be made the most of--most character's observations count. That said, we can never trust what Aizen says; we usually doubt what Gin says--why do we doubt that Orihime when she observes that Rukia is "more than a nakama" to Ichigo? I believe that one of her main purposes in the Bleach story is to make a somewhat ambiguous relationship PLAIN AS DAY.

The current arc stresses the importance of nakama. Over and over we hear Ichigo identify Orihime as his nakama. Before he declares his intent to rescue her he says "Orihime is our nakama. I will rescue her myself!" That utterance would've been x times more romantic without the first line.

But Orihime has observed about Rukia already--she is more than a nakama to Ichigo.

great post as usual ShuiMei

Yeah, I 'm mostly back to say mazel tov to ShuiMei for bringing good grace, good sense and good grammar back to this thread.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by HaNa-san

Even if the writer kubo wants us the readers to take every word from his characters, we have first to look at her/his actual affect and role overall the story.. did that character has a backup to her/his claim, what kind of a relationship he/she has to the main characters? Did the manga prove his/her claim later in the story?

The same can be said about nell..nell doesn’t know ichigo that well and what kind of the relationship he has with orihime and rukia.. she was there to give orihime an enough encouragement to support ichigo, she didn't talk about ichigo/ulq fight in depth.. so we shouldn't take her words as an absolute thing when we know she missed half of the incident in her speech..

Sorry, but there's no need for that much detective work. We take the characters words at face value unless there's valid reason to think that the mangaka intended their words to be wrong or misleading (like Ulq and his mind games, or Aizen's lies). In Matsumoto's and Nell's cases, the only way their speeches could be "wrong" is if Kubo wanted to prove that they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about (and I can't imagine why he would go through such lengths to demonstrate that). Their prior knowledge of Rukia, Orihime and Ichigo has nothing to do with anything. Kubo simply used these characters explain facts to the readers. He had Matsumoto explain that Ichigo needs both Orihime and Rukia and Nell explain that Ichigo came to HM for the purpose of rescuing her. Kubo hasn't given us any reason to think otherwise

Now, I'm not arguing with ShuiMei's post that these speeches weren't meant to prove anything romantic. However, people who argue credibility based on their past interaction with other characters aren't making much sense.

As for grimmijaw sentence (you came to fight me or something like that), it's different why?

Simple. Like I said before, Grimmjow is a bad guy and he had an agenda: to get Ichigo to fight full power It's the same thing with Ulq. He flat out lied and said Rukia was already dead so that Ichigo would fight him. Grimm and Ulq were willing to say anything to get Ichigo to fight them, including half-truths and lies to get him pissed enough.

And even then, I didn't say Grimmjow was lying completely but obviously stating a half-truth that skewed the purpose of Ichigo coming to HM.

However, Matsumoto and Nell are good characters who have no reason to lie or be misleading. The only excuse people give not to believe their words is that they claim these characters don't know Ichigo well enough to make that judgement. I find it funny because Ulq and Grimmjow don't know Ichigo any better, but these same folks will argue their speeches to be the truth despite these characters being evil and shown to have alterior motives behind their words.

Therefore, once we know the nature of the character who's talking and showing some important information particularly if it's related to the main characters relationship, we should know how much his/her speech can be trusted or not..

I agree, though I think the character's intentions should be taken into consideration more than their relationship with the main characters.

[Kari Izumi]

Originally Posted by Langus

*head shake* I don't know why people keep thinking Matsumoto is an authority on this...she ISN'T.

Funny, I didn't say she was. All I said is that she's an impartial observer. In face, Shumei's last post said it a hell of a lot better than I could.

Please watch the series again. How many times has she EVER see them interacting together? Once? Twice MAYBE? Yup...calling it how she sees it... I give her ZERO credibility in this situation.

I was going with what I assumed to be KT's authorial intent (as someone else mentioned). Her role in that point was to express the author's point...that Orihime need not to compare herself to Rukia or think herself worse for not being able to cheer Ichigo up that one time.

And besides that, she's not really the best choice of person to give advice. Let's take a look at her own relationships...they're getting along just fine!

...but what are your thoughts on yaoi?!

Please stop using Matsumoto's sympathetic statement that "he needs both of them" as shipping evidence. There's other (better?) stuff you can use that actually lends some credence to your argument.

Damn straight there is, which is why this isn't arguing the "ship":

Matsumoto is an impartial observer (or intended to be by Kubo). Being removed from the situation, she calls it how she sees it.With Orihime and Rukia both being his friends, even if Rukia is unquestionably closer, of course he needs them both. The same way that he needs Chad and Ishida.

Lurk moar before typing, plz.

[Sinta]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Sorry, but there's no need for that much detective work. We take the characters words at face value unless there's valid reason to think that the mangaka intended their words to be wrong or misleading (like Ulq and his mind games, or Aizen's lies). In Matsumoto's and Nell's cases, the only way their speeches could be "wrong" is if Kubo wanted to prove that they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about (and I can't imagine why he would go through such lengths to demonstrate that). Their prior knowledge of Rukia, Orihime and Ichigo has nothing to do with anything. Kubo simply used these characters explain facts to the readers. He had Matsumoto explain that Ichigo needs both Orihime and Rukia and Nell explain that Ichigo came to HM for the purpose of rescuing her. Kubo hasn't given us any reason to think otherwise

Now, I'm not arguing with ShuiMei's post that these speeches weren't meant to prove anything romantic. However, people who argue credibility based on their past interaction with other characters aren't making much sense.

Mind if I jump in?

I actually agree with all of you to an extent so allow me to explain the position.

Creditability is always an issue. hana-san is right in that particular aspect. No author is going to make his audience take information at face value without first proving their creditability of their position. (Or later proving their creditiability) Take inoue as an example. Inoue from the very beginning has been established as a character that can read Ichigo very well. Her observations, feelings and interpretations have been show to be spot when dealing with ichigo. This is why information given taken from her oberservations should be taken at face value unless we are given a reason to not believe her. This very element is what creates such a powerful response when she comments on Ichigo. If Kubo had not done this her words and actions wouldn't carry half their weight. (Like I said creditability is always an issue) The jealously scene we are dicussing is a great example. We've said it before so i don't want to get off on a side bar, but inoue's jealously is very telling as to the nature of ichigo and rukia feelings for one another. She has been shown to read Ichigo very well thus the implications that we pull out of those feelings should be take at face value i.e Ichigo has feelings for Rukia.

Another example is Hanatrano and his conversation with Ichigo about rukia. He is a creditable source of information because Kubo showed us the source of his information. We can safely believe what he is saying as we know its directly from Rukia's mouth. Now move on to Rangiku; while a bit on the goofy side, Rangiku has been shown to be have good instincts and sense. However, her knowledge doesn't seem to be anything but experience and small amount of observation. We aren't given any reason to believe what she is saying. We don't know where she is getting the source of her advice or information; If that is the case beyond the fact that its there; there is not any reason to believe she is creditable beyond a certain point. In my opinion in situations like that I think we have to take her words with a grain of salt. I do believe her words should be taken at face value but in a general way while being weary of creditability and alterior motives. The way I see it, Rangiku is basically killing two birds with one stone here. She is making inoue feel better by make her understand Ichigo needs his friends in the most general of ways. He needs them because he's a boy who has great power. She made the comparison with Rukia because Rukia is the source of inoue's concern, but implication is that Ichigo needs all of his friends in their different capacity; I think any other interpretation beyond stretches the believability of Ranigku's position.

Mind you, there is nothing in this scene that ichigo cares for Inoue beyond a friend and any interpretation indicating such is way beyond the scope of the scene. Its not even on the radar.

Simple. Like I said before, Grimmjow is a bad guy and he had an agenda: to get Ichigo to fight full power It's the same thing with Ulq. He flat out lied and said Rukia was already dead so that Ichigo would fight him. Grimm and Ulq were willing to say anything to get Ichigo to fight them, including half-truths and lies to get him pissed enough.

And even then, I didn't say Grimmjow was lying completely but obviously stating a half-truth that skewed the purpose of Ichigo coming to HM.

I am going to have disagree here. There isn't any indication that Grimmjow is using half truths just to get Ichigo pissed. In fact its the exact opposite. Its implied that Grimmjow is trying to get Ichigo to look at himself as what he really is. Grimmjow is pissed off at Ichigo for pretending to be the protector when really ichigo's instinct is what brought him to fight. he seeks battle; he needs battle. Battle is what drives him. Kepanchi implied the same thing; as did his hollow. Grimmjow hasn't show to be a liar or misleading. That being the case, we should take his words at face value especially since ichigo agrees with him.

However, Matsumoto and Nell are good characters who have no reason to lie or be misleading. The only excuse people give not to believe their words is that they claim these characters don't know Ichigo well enough to make that judgement. I find it funny because Ulq and Grimmjow don't know Ichigo any better, but these same folks will argue their speeches to be the truth despite these characters being evil and shown to have alterior motives behind their words.

There is also a key difference in these situations. Words should be taken at face value unless given a reason to believe otherwise. I think you are right in that aspect. You say that "alterior motives" affect the creditiability of their (Grimm and Ulq) statement. Well one could make the argument that Nell and Matusmoto not knowing ichigo well enough is a reason to believe otherwise and that Matsumoto's alternor motives could have skewed her judgement. The situations with Grimm and Ulq are also different then the ones with Matusmoto and Nell not because of who is a bad guy and who is good guy or the relationship with the main character but because of Ichigo himself. . Ichigo directly contradicts what Nell is saying when he agrees with Grimm. Same with Ulq. Ichigo's words and actions imply that Ulq is dead on his observations. Ichigo interactions with Grimm and Ulq mess up the argument a bit as Ichigo's words and actions seem to "verify" Grimm's and Ulq's observations. If that is the case, we are no longer given a reason to not believe in their words. This is far different from the situations with Nell and Ranigku who have little or no verification at all.

I agree, though I think the character's intentions should be taken into consideration more than their relationship with the main characters.

Interesting thought, do expound.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Sinta

Another example is Hanatrano and his conversation with Ichigo about rukia. He is a creditable source of information because Kubo showed us the source of his information. We can safely believe what he is saying as we know its directly from Rukia's mouth. Now move on to Rangiku; while a bit on the goofy side, Rangiku has been shown to be have good instincts and sense. However, her knowledge doesn't seem to be anything but experience and small amount of observation. We aren't given any reason to believe what she is saying. We don't know where she is getting the source of her advice or information; If that is the case beyond the fact that its there; there is not any reason to believe she is creditable beyond a certain point.

Obviously, an explanation of Hanataro's experience with Rukia had to be given for his dialog to make any kind of sense . However, Orihime being able to instinctively read Ichigo (when they weren't particularly that close at the start of the series), makes just as much sense and Matsumoto being able instinctively "understand" Ichigo's need for all his friends. They only have this understanding because Kubo wrote it for them. Folks are willing to accept Orihime as a credible source, (at least when it comes to Ichigo's feelings about Rukia) but not Matsumoto?

Mind you, there is nothing in this scene that ichigo cares for Inoue beyond a friend and any interpretation indicating such is way beyond the scope of the scene. Its not even on the radar.

Can't speak for others, but I wasn't saying there was. Matsumoto's words are vague and as ShuMei said, are really neutral to any side of the romance argument.

I am going to have disagree here. There isn't any indication that Grimmjow is using half truths just to get Ichigo pissed. In fact its the exact opposite. Its implied that Grimmjow is trying to get Ichigo to look at himself as what he really is. Grimmjow is pissed off at Ichigo for pretending to be the protector when really ichigo's instinct is what brought him to fight. he seeks battle; he needs battle. Battle is what drives him. Kepanchi implied the same thing; as did his hollow. Grimmjow hasn't show to be a liar or misleading. That being the case, we should take his words at face value especially since ichigo agrees with him.

It's a half-truth. What's true is that Ichigo does have a very strong instinct/will to fight and that he is driven to do battle. What was false is that Ichigo came to Hueco Mundo ONLY to fight. This was proven to be incorrect several times: by Nell and Orihime in chp 283, by Ichigo in 315 and by Orihime again in 317. Each of those chapters it was stated that everyone (including and especially Ichigo) came to HM to rescue Orihime.

GJ was misleading by trying to convince Ichigo that he cared for nothing but fighting, revenge and winning, but that was proven to be false. Ichigo has shown to be very much a protector.

There is also a key difference in these situations. Words should be taken at face value unless given a reason to believe otherwise. I think you are right in that aspect. You say that "alterior motives" affect the creditiability of their (Grimm and Ulq) statement. Well one could make the argument that Nell and Matusmoto not knowing ichigo well enough is a reason to believe otherwise and that Matsumoto's alternor motives could have skewed her judgement. The situations with Grimm and Ulq are also different then the ones with Matusmoto and Nell not because of who is a bad guy and who is good guy or the relationship with the main character but because of Ichigo himself. .

By"alterior motive" I meant having a reason to intentionally mislead rather than simply making an error in judgment. Grimm and Ulq had clear reasons to mislead. And Ulq has admitted doing this several times. Matsumoto and Nell have no reason to do that and that is not part of the nature of their characters. This is what I meant when I said the intentions of the characters should be taken into consideration.

It all comes down to what Kubo is trying to do with the dialog. Why would he have Matsumoto or Nell say wrong things simply to demonstrate that these characters don't know Ichigo well? What purpose would that serve? How does it advance the plot at all?

Same with Ulq. Ichigo's words and actions imply that Ulq is dead on his observations. Ichigo interactions with Grimm and Ulq mess up the argument a bit as Ichigo's words and actions seem to "verify" Grimm's and Ulq's observations. If that is the case, we are no longer given a reason to not believe in their words. This is far different from the situations with Nell and Ranigku who have little or no verification at all.

As I said read the chapters again. Read where Ichigo states that his foremost duty is protect his friends, and how Orihime explains on two separate occasions how she realized everyone came to protect her. Ulq and Grimm's words are not verified by a long shot.

[HaNa-san]

Debbie I can't agree more since no one should know kubo better than his girlfriend you know you were observing him as well since the start of bleach

Sinta great post.. it always nice to read your take in the discussion ^^

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Sorry, but there's no need for that much detective work. We take the characters words at face value unless there's valid reason to think that the mangaka intended their words to be wrong or misleading (like Ulq and his mind games, or Aizen's lies). In Matsumoto's and Nell's cases, the only way their speeches could be "wrong" is if Kubo wanted to prove that they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about (and I can't imagine why he would go through such lengths to demonstrate that). Their prior knowledge of Rukia, Orihime and Ichigo has nothing to do with anything. Kubo simply used these characters explain facts to the readers. He had Matsumoto explain that Ichigo needs both Orihime and Rukia and Nell explain that Ichigo came to HM for the purpose of rescuing her. Kubo hasn't given us any reason to think otherwise

I agree, I don't need to be clever to understand these things.. you said there's nothing proved them wrong, but can we take the whole thing as a complete truth.... the problem with matsumoto speech it wasn't that clear and specific..did she explain in what exactly ichigo needs both rukia and orihime?.. if she meant their relationship are equal to ichigo, then it's wrong as we know rukia is much more closer and has done many things to ichigo that orihime hasn't.. but if she meant they both are important to him as part of his nakama group, then we all can agree because it's the most logical and suitable position for orihime since the manga has proved nothing more than that for her relationship with ichigo..

As for aizen lies (about using orihime as a bait) we still haven't seen anything in the manga proves he's wrong, so till that moment we can take his words as a true thing.. the close thing to backup with his role in the manga is to read the end of ss arc when he exposed his true intention for trying to kill rukia (the hougyoku) and where his main goal lays in (to reach heaven).. and we discovered it was true, but the thing for the later is still unknown that we might learn more in the end of the manga.. Therefore, we can't jump to a conclusion and say he's lying for sure when we still have no evidence to support this claim..

Simple. Like I said before, Grimmjow is a bad guy and he had an agenda: to get Ichigo to fight full power It's the same thing with Ulq. He flat out lied and said Rukia was already dead so that Ichigo would fight him. Grimm and Ulq were willing to say anything to get Ichigo to fight them, including half-truths and lies to get him pissed enough.

I didn't compare grimmijaw to ulq, but you did.. we know that grimmijaw is honest when it comes to fighting..so why he needs to use some plans or mind games to get ichigo to fight him.. we saw previously that thing drove ichigo to fight him was rukia.. so he was using ichigo's old wound to proved his real intention (he came to fight grim as a revenge of the past) and it's not something new... we also saw that grim used orihime and nell to force ichigo to transfer (to his hollow form) so we can come to a conclusion that says grimmijaw is direct in his way to fight his opponents while ulq is not.. ulq is more into verbal approach..

And even then, I didn't say Grimmjow was lying completely but obviously stating a half-truth that skewed the purpose of Ichigo coming to HM.

I agree here, ichigo also came to rescue orihime, but sadly she wasn't his main focus especially that he agreed to himself with grimmijaw talk..

However, Matsumoto and Nell are good characters who have no reason to lie or be misleading. The only excuse people give not to believe their words is that they claim these characters don't know Ichigo well enough to make that judgement. I find it funny because Ulq and Grimmjow don't know Ichigo any better, but these same folks will argue their speeches to be the truth despite these characters being evil and shown to have alterior motives behind their words.

The difference between matsumoto and nell is that matsumoto is an adult and nell is child.. so we can't compare those two equally.. mat is more wisdom woman who has more experience with life, but still her speech wasn't that specific as I explained above.. However, nel was innocent and very plain in her words.. so do we have to believe everything she said when we have witnessed the incident she talked about ourselves from zero to end.. did she mention anything about rukia when we know the fight had a great deal about her "death" state.. as a result of that, we should consider that kubo didn't use nell to tell orihime the complete truth because she was used just to give orihime the needed encouragement, so mentioning rukia was pointless to the whole scene as it wouldn't serve the real purpose behind it (giving the support)..

Obviously, an explanation of Hanataro's experience with Rukia had to be given for his dialog to make any kind of sense . However, Orihime being able to instinctively read Ichigo (when they weren't particularly that close at the start of the series), makes just as much sense and Matsumoto being able instinctively "understand" Ichigo's need for all his friends. They only have this understanding because Kubo wrote it for them. Folks are willing to accept Orihime as a credible source, (at least when it comes to Ichigo's feelings about Rukia) but not Matsumoto?

Are you serious of comparing orihime with matsumoto? Was matusmoto once a part of ichigo group to state that claim? Orihime was being able to read ichigo form the start, because of her crush (love) for him.. she was watching him in a shadow even before the series had started or else where did her crush come from? Where her funny comments about ichigo that have been discussed with tatsuki come from? Didn't all of these stuff just showed she was staking, I mean watching him very closely form far? And orihime is the one who's in love with ichigo not matsumoto..

It's a half-truth. What's true is that Ichigo does have a very strong instinct/will to fight and that he is driven to do battle. What was false is that Ichigo came to Hueco Mundo ONLY to fight. This was proven to be incorrect several times: by Nell and Orihime in chp 283, by Ichigo in 315 and by Orihime again in 317. Each of those chapters it was stated that everyone (including and especially Ichigo) came to HM to rescue Orihime.

GJ was misleading by trying to convince Ichigo that he cared for nothing but fighting, revenge and winning, but that was proven to be false. Ichigo has shown to be very much a protector.

I agree here, we can't believe all of what grimmijaw has said since we know ichigo better than him, but I just believed him in this sentence (you came to fight me) as ichigo has agreed with him.. it can be said the same with nel and matsumoto that their speech weren't a fully truth..

By" alterior motive" I meant having a reason to intentionally mislead rather than simply making an error in judgment. Grimm and Ulq had clear reasons to mislead. And Ulq has admitted doing this several times. Matsumoto and Nell have no reason to do that and that is not part of the nature of their characters. This is what I meant when I said the intentions of the characters should be taken into consideration.

We can't doubt that ulq intention was basically to fight ichigo, so we can infer that matsumoto intention was to comfort orihime which was signified to be the main concern of her speech and nel intention was to give orihime encouragement..and that what kubo has intended by the whole scene..

It all comes down to what Kubo is trying to do with the dialog. Why would he have Matsumoto or Nell say wrong things simply to demonstrate that these characters don't know Ichigo well? What purpose would that serve? How does it advance the plot at all?

No one has said they're saying wrong things, they just simply didn't cover the whole truth or weren't that specific.. nel said" he attacked ulq just because he heard your name" was that true? We saw him jumped at ulq when he mentioned orihime, but it wasn't for her name only.. ulq said " what if I said I was the one who brought orihime here" so ichigo was mad at the fact he was the one who kidnapped orihime.. he didn't get crazy over her name.. given that we have seen the entire conversation before nel speech, it's not that difficult to correct it..

As I said read the chapters again. Read where Ichigo states that his foremost duty is protect his friends, and how Orihime explains on two separate occasions how she realized everyone came to protect her. Ulq and Grimm's words are not verified by a long shot.

Ichigo real intention is to rescue his friends for sure, but he wasn't that focus as we have seen him in ss arc, so we can assume from his admission with grimmijaw dialogue that he came to fight as well, is the reason of his shaky or conflict focus in his mission.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by HaNa-san

The difference between matsumoto and nell is that matsumoto is an adult and nell is child.. so we can't compare those two equally.. mat is more wisdom woman who has more experience with life

No, age and experience doesn't make a difference in her credibility, because these are fictional characters who are all spoon fed their words by the same writer. They can be incorrect or untrue, but only if it serves some kind of purpose to the story, even if that purpose is something minor as comic relief. However, they don't have random errors in judgement/understanding like real people do.

The purpose and interpretation of Nell's words is arguable, but the credibility due to her age isn't. When Nell speaks, it's Kubo speaking through Nell, even when she says things that are meant to make her look silly and childish.

And just because Nell wanted to encourage Orihime doesn't make her words false or empty words of comfort. Ichigo did come to rescue Orihime and he did attack Ulq after hearing Ulq was responsible for her kidnapping. The fact that Ichigo was concerned about Rukia's condition and planned to go to her aid doesn't change that.

As for aizen lies (about using orihime as a bait) we still haven't seen anything in the manga proves he's wrong, so till that moment we can take his words as a true thing.. the close thing to backup with his role in the manga is to read the end of ss arc when he exposed his true intention for trying to kill rukia (the hougyoku) and where his main goal lays in (to reach heaven).. and we discovered it was true, but the thing for the later is still unknown that we might learn more in the end of the manga.. Therefore, we can't jump to a conclusion and say he's lying for sure when we still have no evidence to support this claim..

I wasn't talking about using Orihime as bait, but all the lies and deceptions Aizen used in SS: acting suspicious of Gin to make everyone suspect him, faking his own murder, initially lying about the ability of his zanpakuto, making it seem like the goal of Rukia's execution was getting the power of the Sougyoku when it was really extracting the hougyoku, etc, etc.

Aizen's role is built around lies and deception. True, we don't know yet if what he said about Orihime is false or not, but Kubo's given us numerous reasons not to believe everything he says. It's not the same thing as saying his words shouldn't be trusted because of possible errors due to age, lack of experience, etc.

I didn't compare grimmijaw to ulq, but you did.. we know that grimmijaw is honest when it comes to fighting..so why he needs to use some plans or mind games to get ichigo to fight him, we saw previously that thing drove ichigo to fight him was rukia.. so he was using ichigo's old wound to proved his real intention (he came to fight grim as a revenge of the past) and it's not something new...

I was comparing them because they were both provoking Ichigo to fight.

GJ isn't as manipulative as Aizen or Ulq, but he's not above saying things that aren't the truth, to mock and provoke his opponents, if not to deceive them, like when he said that he got rid of his arm because he didn't need it to fight Ichigo, when actually Tousen destroyed it. He said that not as a lie that he expected Ichigo to believe, but as a taunt. Grimm is more direct than Ulq, but he'll still use trash-talk and taunts against opponents.And still, I would say GJ's words were correct if they weren't contradicted several times by Ichigo's actions and other character's words.

As for Ichigo wanting revenge for Rukia, Ichigo himself never says anything about Rukia to Grimm, not during that fight or the fight before that which was directly after he wounded Rukia. This was something GJ was rubbing in his face to make him angrier. I'm sure he wanted payback for what Grimm did, but that was far from the main reason he was fighting.

Ichigo real intention is to rescue his friends for sure, but he wasn't that focus as we have seen him in ss arc, so we can assume from his admission with grimmijaw dialogue that he came to fight as well, is the reason of his shaky or conflict focus in his mission.

It's the exact same thing. You think Ichigo spent all that time with training with Urahara and went into SS only with the intentions of rescuing Rukia? He was focused on rescue but he knew he was going to fight and he intended to fight. From the moment Orihime was kidnapped Ichigo didn't even think of Grimm or any other espada until he found himself face-to-face with them. Just like in SS, Ichigo's enemies sought him out, not the other way around.

Ichigo only agreed that he came to HM with intentions to fight, so that he could get rid of the enemies (GJ, Aizen and Ulq) that threatened and hurt his friends. He said nothing about this being his only reason or main reason for coming.

[Sinta]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Obviously, an explanation of Hanataro's experience with Rukia had to be given for his dialog to make any kind of sense . However, Orihime being able to instinctively read Ichigo (when they weren't particularly that close at the start of the series), makes just as much sense and Matsumoto being able instinctively "understand" Ichigo's need for all his friends. They only have this understanding because Kubo wrote it for them. Folks are willing to accept Orihime as a credible source, (at least when it comes to Ichigo's feelings about Rukia) but not Matsumoto?

How does inoue's initution, that has been shown to be dead on over and over again, make as much sense as Matusmoto pulling some explanation out of no where? She has no history, preamble or any sort of creditability indicating that we should think she is right in her assement. You seem to think that just because Kubo was the one that wrote the words that we should automatically accept that she is exactly right. Kubo has not made us do that before. He has always given us a reason to believe. In other cases, Inoue and Hanatro for example, he gave interactions and information. He showed Inoue's ability to read Ichigo. He showed the source of Hanatro's information. How is that the same as Matsumoto? She hasn’t been shown to know Ichigo, Inoue or Rukia. She hasn’t even been shown to be particularly insightful when it comes to relationship. So how are the situations similar? The situations aren't even close to comparable even if Kubo did write both scenes.

Can't speak for others, but I wasn't saying there was. Matsumoto's words are vague and as ShuMei said, are really neutral to any side of the romance argument.

I agree with this. There isn't any romantic undertones for either side. Ranigku was showing comfort.

It's a half-truth. What's true is that Ichigo does have a very strong instinct/will to fight and that he is driven to do battle. What was false is that Ichigo came to Hueco Mundo ONLY to fight. This was proven to be incorrect several times: by Nell and Orihime in chp 283, by Ichigo in 315 and by Orihime again in 317. Each of those chapters it was stated that everyone (including and especially Ichigo) came to HM to rescue Orihime.

GJ was misleading by trying to convince Ichigo that he cared for nothing but fighting, revenge and winning, but that was proven to be false. Ichigo has shown to be very much a protector.

By"alterior motive" I meant having a reason to intentionally mislead rather than simply making an error in judgment. Grimm and Ulq had clear reasons to mislead. And Ulq has admitted doing this several times. Matsumoto and Nell have no reason to do that and that is not part of the nature of their characters. This is what I meant when I said the intentions of the characters should be taken into consideration.

This arc was about trying to get Ichigo to look at himself and accept it. Grimm wasn’t trying to turn Ichigo into something he’s not. As for the ichigo reasons, I'm not saying Ichigo didn't want to save inoue. i'm saying its a matter of degree and that’s not really what was important in the HM Arc. In the HM arc, Ichigo's characterization had very little to do with Inoue and more to do with being about to accept his "instinctive" side and his desire for power.

I understood what you meant, and i'm saying that Grimm doesn't have a clear intention to mislead. Since when has Grimm been that subdue. He’s not. Its not part of his personality; Actually if truth be told it was Ichigo's that was misleading not Grimm. (He was misleading himself) Thats what the whole inner battle was about; and why Ichigo was finally able to be Grimm. It wasn't about Grimm trying to misdirect or mislead Ichigo into a certain path. Ichigo verifed this when he agreed with Grimm. Grimm didn't say anything about only coming here to fight. He was using those words to make ichigo realize who he was and therefore use his full power. It was a form of self actualization through acceptance of oneself.

It all comes down to what Kubo is trying to do with the dialog. Why would he have Matsumoto or Nell say wrong things simply to demonstrate that these characters don't know Ichigo well? What purpose would that serve? How does it advance the plot at all?

These aren't questions that we can answer. All we can do is take the dialogue and what we know about the characters and make our guess based on that. Nell's and Matsumoto's words could be complete and utter crap, a total lie, or completely off in left field. Who knows, but accepting words completely at face value when you reason to doubt seems silly to me. Maybe Kubo will make these words more believable; i don't know, but allowing two characters who know very little of Ichigo some huge insight into his way of thinking is sloppy. I don't think that Kubo is sloppy. As for the plot these words could still be wrong and used for any number of things.

As for what was actually said. I do think we have to believe what Nell and Rangiku said. I just feel that implications that can be drawn from the dialogue is very limited in scope for the exact reason we have been discussing.

As I said read the chapters again. Read where Ichigo states that his foremost duty is protect his friends, and how Orihime explains on two separate occasions how she realized everyone came to protect her. Ulq and Grimm's words are not verified by a long shot.

I will have to disagree. Grimms words were about acceptance not duty. Grimm said that Ichigo came to fight (he followed his instinct); Ichigo agreed with him did he not? Ulq's words were a simple observation in which Ichigo strongly implies are right. The verification came from Ichigo in both circumstances so I will disagree with you unless you think that Ichigo is lying or wrong. i suppose that could be true.

[BleachOD]

Originally Posted by ShuiMei

I don't think she's using it as shipping evidence at all, rather she's neutralizing it, which I think is probably the most rational way to look at the scene.

Having Matsumoto say that Ichigo needs both Rukia and Orihime isn't a slight to either "shipping camps." Once you stop looking for romantic connotations in her words, when you think about what she's saying in terms of the themes in Bleach, I think you can see that Matsumoto is most likely just reinforcing the great shounen theme of heroes taking on a lot and therefore needing the support of all his friends to get through it all.

Her comments aren't in regards to what Ichigo thinks of either Rukia or Orihime or how he feels about them, Matsumoto's comments are words of comfort, telling Orihime that though she may have these feelings of jealousy and inadequacy, she's admirable for owning up to them, as well as encouragement, because Ichigo's a stubborn brat who essentially needs all his friends.

So when Matsumoto says that Ichigo needs both of them, she more than likely means it in a way that he needs the support of the people around him. Ichigo needs Rukia and Orihime, he also needs Chad and Ishida too. He needs the support of his friends because he's the quintessential shounen hero with a lot on his shoulders, and he was certainly going through a rough patch at that time, so having the people around him, (like Orihime and Rukia, etc etc.) be there for him is what he needs the most. There doesn't have to be anything shippy about it, so there's no need to discredit Matsumoto, as I don't think she was pushing anything beyond that

Excellent! You know I say it all the time...but when you do it. It's much more convincing...I will cookie if I can.

Originally Posted by ookamikit

I actually think that most/some people(notice that I say most or maybe some) are using this thread to attack their rival shippers. I thought this was just to discuss the difference between the two pairings really.

Flames at Kakashi...are to be ignored. We are married and he insults me too. We get off on it.
I don't attack my rivals. Don't have to..

[Warchef]

OD that sounds like something Ichigo and Rukia would do

[Scarlett_Rain55]

Hey guys! I was just wondering if the Bleach Pilot chapter has been discussed in this thread before, if so what pages? Cause I'd really like to read those discussions! =)

[BleachOD]

Originally Posted by Finalfantasyfan55

Hey guys! I was just wondering if the Bleach Pilot chapter has been discussed in this thread before, if so what pages? Cause I'd really like to read those discussions! =)

Yes...the Demon Brigade uses it as evidence IchOri and not just Ori exists

IchiRuki says: It was rejected it's no more credible then the SJ covers or the "Ichigo's meat " spread (Orihime is in the friend zone)

I say they had more chemistry in that one chapter than the entire Bleach history we know to date. However I think during the revisiting of it...KT became enamored of IchiRuki and Inoue was then used as tool for those that can't see love is more than a mushy confession to a comatose Ichigo. She is to give insight to Ichigo's feelings for Rukia and enhance his virility. Shounen heroes always has more than one chick in love with them. She is the unrequited love of the series. HM arc and 2 chapters ago...killed all hopes of IchiOri.

What are your thoughts on the chapter?

[Reincarnated]

Oh man ... if this thread goes up to 500pages with the same problem over and over again ... heck I will laugh no matter what.

Sooner or later you will know the answer from the KT himself , why making problems more difficult?