Character Discussion - Lelouch

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Tael

No. There is no Geass rewiring. Every time the Geass has worked that has occurred, every time. The only thing that could make Charles special enough to not have the effect is if it had no affect at all. It doesn't matter if we pan out or not, there is no sign of him being Geassed ever. You cannot argue that he was Geassed if the very fundamental parts of Geassing never occurred. It's like arguing Person A died because Person B fired a gun. If Person A isn't shown taking the bullet, how can you argue that he died because of Person B?

Then why was the crane in the middle of the focus? I'm pretty sure panning up to the crane, with the crane then being focused on a few seconds later, puts the crane at a higher importance than a hat. There is nothing to substantiate that it is Lelouch, nothing concrete anyway.

Aha, now that is where you are wrong, the whole scene was panned out in order to make us question I feel, but you know if person A falls over and has blood spouting out then you assume he did get hit. In this case that was what literally happened... and then he gets back up. Now, in this sense, you can't very well prove he didn't get hit at the same time, we just don't know, which is what I'm bringing up at this point and that I believe was what was intended for that scene at the time just as how I believe the ending was as well.

That was toward the end, and as for panning we follow through with the hat just as much until we are led up to the crane. to which we see C.C etc etc. I'm just saying that the camera angling is once again quite suspicious, and as a result I interpret that suspicion is to be welcomed in the ending now by the Director and Sunrise, which BTW fits the usual trend in which they do things

[Tael]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Aha, now that is where you are wrong, the whole scene was panned out in order to make us question I feel, but you know if person A falls over and has blood spouting out then you assume he did get hit. In this case that was what literally happened... and then he gets back up. Now, in this sense, you can't very well prove he didn't get hit at the same time, we just don't know, which is what I'm bringing up at this point and that I believe was what was intended for that scene at the time just as how I believe the ending was as well.

... No. The scene zoomed right on into Charles' face as the Geass reached him, but stopped. It did like always, zoom into the face, but at that point, it never showed anymore. It stopped. Pure and simple. The Geassing did not complete because it was not shown to complete. Okham's Razor always defeats straw grasping.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Aha, now that is where you are wrong, the whole scene was panned out in order to make us question I feel, but you know if person A falls over and has blood spouting out then you assume he did get hit. In this case that was what literally happened... and then he gets back up. Now, in this sense, you can't very well prove he didn't get hit at the same time, we just don't know, which is what I'm bringing up at this point and that I believe was what was intended for that scene at the time just as how I believe the ending was as well.

...ouch. I think I might have to agree with you here, Krimzon.

I believe the scene was intentionally ambiguous, and that you are meant to draw your own conclusion. Whether you're right or not probably won't be explained.

At least I hope not.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Tael

... No. The scene zoomed right on into Charles' face as the Geass reached him, but stopped. It did like always, zoom into the face, but at that point, it never showed anymore. It stopped. Pure and simple. The Geassing did not complete because it was not shown to complete. Okham's Razor always defeats straw grasping.

It reached into and surrounded his eyes and encompassing them and then we end up pulling back. It didn't stop in that scene exactly or it wasn't shown to have stopped, and it didn't get shown to get repelled as in the next time Lelouch tries to Geass him either. By not showing I once again extrapolate that the scene itself was left ambiguous and made for our own interpretation just as the ending would as well. Nothing to say it did work, nothing to say it didn't, and that's the whole point really because you can't be sure because we don't know or can't be sure exactly

[Vito]

My problem with Lelouch still being alive is mostly what kind of a person does that make him? Considering the slide of blood he made while reaching Nunally.... if all that was part of a show, poor girl, She'll probably wake up screaming for a while.

Suzaku was crying in the episode as he stabbed Lelouch, this leads me to belive in his mind he knew he was killing Lelouch since let's face it, he was still pretty pissed off about Euphie. Now if Lelouch was still alive, I'm not sure how Suzaku would like that and if Lelouch broke the promise, what kind of a person would that make him?

I really see no benefit in Lelouch being left alive apart from:
a) him being paired with C.C.
b) him not being dead

Also, C.C. was crying... why, because he would become immortal? I doubt it and part of why I like the ending is that C.C. didn't force her immortality on Lelouch but found a new inspiration to be alive and see how the world would be influenced by Lelouch's legacy. Either way, Lelouch became immortal, one ending is a plain immortal one riding the cart of hay for all eternity, the other one is he'll never forgoten by his loved ones and maybe one day the rest of the world will know the truth.

P.S.: Kallen would probably demand another Gurren to be built and put that key to good use to find and stomp his ass into the ground for all eternity if she found out he was alive and fooling with C.C. on a haystack.

[Tael]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

It reached into and surrounded his eyes and encompassing them and then we end up pulling back. It didn't stop in that scene exactly or it wasn't shown to have stopped, and it didn't get shown to get repelled as in the next time Lelouch tries to Geass him either. By not showing I once again extrapolate that the scene itself was left ambiguous and made for our own interpretation just as the ending would as well. Nothing to say it did work, nothing to say it didn't, and that's the whole point really because you can't be sure because we don't know or can't be sure exactly

There is something to say it didn't work, its actually pretty obvious, he had the code. And since he is shown having the code a minute or so later, it's pretty easy to say on substantiated grounds that the Geass had no affect. The only claim you have is 'it was ambiguous'. The progression is pretty simple:

Geass from Lelouch but no visible effect -> Charles shoots himself -> Laughs at Lelouch at the mind fucking he gave him -> Shows his code -> Says Geass and Guns have no affect. Okham's Razor says: He had the Code, hence why the Geass is never shown completing.

[Phospholipid]

I, for one, believe that he is alive. It's personal opinion and the opening is left completely up to interpretation. But I'm under the impression that R.R. (pronouciation of Lelouch in Japanese [ReReousha] R2 connection?) has a code and is now an immortal.

Here are my speculations and thoughts(remember just thoughts):

1) You don't actually get the code transfer unless the initial bearer is near death. Remember V.V.'s death and the nun's death

2) You don't activate the code until you die. Remember C.C.'s scene, and Charles killing himself (In this case, Charles knew how to activate it since VV would have told him).

3) The existence of multiple codes (well we only know of two). If these immortals want to get rid of themselves, why didn't they just do what happened to Charles? Possibly because you can't get rid of codes?

4) How would they rap up CC's happiness? How would Lelouch being dead bring a smile to her face? Why would she have a crane with her? Also she could have been crying because she knows the pain of being an immortal. For the entire series, she's essentially trying to get rid of it...Oh and how does Lelouch prove her ending statement of not being lonely?

5) Why would Jeremiah be okay with the death of his one and only master?

Anyways, there's a possibility no one knew about him getting a code and when he found out he just decided to pack up and leave without telling anyone? Characters like Lelouch only give out info on a need to know basis anyway. Hahaha what they need to do is explain this whole coding process to us.

On a side note, what if Lelouch's body was in a coffin under the hay that CC was on and she's just bringing it along with her for kicks and giggles?

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Tael

There is something to say it didn't work, its actually pretty obvious, he had the code. And since he is shown having the code a minute or so later, it's pretty easy to say on substantiated grounds that the Geass had no affect. The only claim you have is 'it was ambiguous'. The progression is pretty simple:

Geass from Lelouch but no visible effect -> Charles shoots himself -> Laughs at Lelouch at the mind fucking he gave him -> Shows his code -> Says Geass and Guns have no affect. Okham's Razor says: He had the Code, hence why the Geass is never shown completing.

Meh, it was also shown in the next example where it was clearly repelled at the same time. That didn't happen though when he was hit at that time. I don't see why it couldn't have been the case though about the code activation necessity etc. There were some interesting features that could give credence for it, such as the wounds on C.C in her scene with the nun as well. In the end, it was still ambiguous, the whole concept of Codes, Geass, transfers, World of C is ambiguous and thus leaves up a lot of room for interpretation I feel anyway

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Tael

Do I actually care? No. I can take either possibility, but stop making up numbers.

Stop saying that, you are annoyed by that idea since you saw the episode. No need to wear glasses to feel that in your posts.
-


Anyway guys, some new thoeries about [I]lelouch lives![/I ?

[Vito]

Nope, he's dead, either the blood loss killed him or he died in shame of being stabbed by a giant pink sword. (sorry, had to)

[SonOfHeaven]

I'm 50/50 on Lelouch being alive or not.

If he is alive
-Why would Suzaku and C.C. be crying about it.

If he is dead
-Would Orange just really let him die and smile about it.
-C.C. never talks to herself,unless she was talking to Marianne or Charles.

On a side note, we never saw what happened to Lelouch's body so I have no idea.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Vito

Nope, he's dead, either the blood loss killed him or he died in shame of being stabbed by a giant pink sword. (sorry, had to)

Hey, absolutely no shame in dying in such a FABULOUS way I say

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

If he is alive
-Why would Suzaku and C.C. be crying about it.

I'm of the opinion that if Lelouch is alive and had a Code that made him immortal, he had no idea about it. So neither did Suzaku and C.C.

[Phospholipid]

Haha I posted my code theory but until the studio/directors say something about the process we'll never know! Oh and yes!

How would Nunally see the memories of Lelouch? Was that just for effect like how Lelouch saw CCs memories? Haha. Speculate on that?

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

I'm of the opinion that if Lelouch is alive and had a Code that made him immortal, he had no idea about it. So neither did Suzaku and C.C.

And if they did, well, effectively speaking he would still be 'dead' since he would have to give up the life he left behind anyway, never seeing his friends and having to hide from the world. As for C.C, why make promises he couldn't keep in this case I wonder? Perhaps in the church she was praying in (strange since given her experience with the nun you'd think she had an aversion to churches) perhaps she was wishing for something in that context. A number of explanations and possibilities are still up for grabs, and that is how I think then ending wants us to take it on the matter

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

I'm of the opinion that if Lelouch is alive and had a Code that made him immortal, he had no idea about it. So neither did Suzaku and C.C.

I prefer the theory that the gods resurrected him. He geassed (in my opinion) the Collective unconsciousness. And he wished "I desire a future/tomorrow".

So If the gods can kill an immortal (charles) I think they can resurrect a person . Lelouch could have been resurrected the day after his death, to be able to have a tomorrow.

And he said to the gods that this is a wish, but in 25, he said to suzaku that the wish and the geass are kinda the same thing. (iirc). Seeing c.c. praying the gods while she knows who they are is a hint, "in my eyes" :O.

I believe in that ^^.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Narona

I prefer the theory that the gods resurrected him. He geassed (in my opinion) the Collective unconsciousness. And he wished "I desire a future/tomorrow".

So If the gods can kill an immortal (charles) I think they can resurrect a person . Lelouch could have been resurrected the day after his death, to be able to have a tomorrow.

And he said to the gods that this is a wish, but in 25, he said to suzaku that the wish and the geass are kinda the same thing. (iirc)

I believe in that ^^.

Hey, that's an interesting one too. But it would also imply he had no idea that he would actually live when he had Suzaku kill him, so that works for me.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Hey, that's an interesting one too. But it would also imply he had no idea that he would actually live when he had Suzaku kill him, so that works for me.

Yes, that's the point. He has no idea that he would (this is a theory, so no need to pointless comment, thanks) survive this.

I will not be surprised at all if they do an oav and explain that the gods played a part in the ending. They showed us the gods as something really powerful. The gods have even the power to kill and immortal.

[hero147]

CC's wish was to smile, and Lelouch wanted to complete that wish. It's actually quite romantic, how CC's wish changed again. In the last episode, she no longer wished to smile, but her wish was the survival of Lelouch, which may have been granted, if Lelouch is with CC. Hence forth, the contract that started in episode 1, has been completed!

[Narona]

Originally Posted by hero147

CC's wish was to smile, and Lelouch wanted to complete that wish. It's actually quite romantic, how CC's wish changed again. In the last episode, she no longer wished to smile, but her wish was the survival of Lelouch, which may have been granted, if Lelouch is with CC. Hence forth, the contract that started in episode 1, has been completed!

The problem is that, as it was pointed by some. We can't be sure of that, and the best possibility is that he indeed died.

However, I don't think that we are imagining things. Even if he really died, they added some things that can make you think that he is still alive. like the cart driver who doesn't show his face. Or c.c. who raise her voice without any reason.

They can have done this scene differently if they wanted us to be sure that he is dead.