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Old 2013-03-23, 14:29   Link #12961
DawnEmperor
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Putting aside him "never winning", why is he so absurdly powerful? Honestly it makes it a bit difficult to see him as a "loser" per se.
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Old 2013-03-23, 14:53   Link #12962
Homura7
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So you feel he has a more "ultimate" victory that he needs to achieve?
Perhaps. Actually, the twist would be if Medaka loses in the end.
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Old 2013-03-23, 14:58   Link #12963
Wolfenstein
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Kumagawa winning his "first" victory dosen't exempt him from earning other victories, it just means that his curse was broken and now he can imagine himself winning - he's no longer bound to ever lose because he can't see himself winning, so the whole "I couldn't win/I need to/want to win" shouldn't be a big deal for him anymore.

The only problem is how terrible that victory which sparked this was.
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Old 2013-03-23, 14:58   Link #12964
Insert_Gel
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So you feel he has a more "ultimate" victory that he needs to achieve?
So what kind of victory do Kumagawa needs to achieve? Is it the L-O-V-E of Medaka?
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Old 2013-03-23, 15:01   Link #12965
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I think the train of thought that he "needs" another victory is wrong. He'll just live life now, since he already won a victory to show the world that even he can win.
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Old 2013-03-23, 15:23   Link #12966
Insert_Gel
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Medaka needs to fight 100 people right? I wonder if Kumagawa will show up and what number he have.
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Old 2013-03-23, 16:30   Link #12967
DawnEmperor
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Originally Posted by Insert_Gel View Post
So what kind of victory do Kumagawa needs to achieve? Is it the L-O-V-E of Medaka?
According to Sol, it is(though he'll argue that it's the manga itself supporting it, not him).
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Old 2013-03-23, 16:45   Link #12968
Insert_Gel
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According to Sol, it is(though he'll argue that it's the manga itself supporting it, not him).
If Kumagawa will take part in this arc and he's the last one that Medaka will fight then I guess this the moment he is waiting for
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Old 2013-03-23, 18:37   Link #12969
ccie20012
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@Wolfenstein
I do not agree with this interpretation. It was just tears of sadness from a temporary parting. And it does not apply to the breakdown of relationships.
It is just like his girlfriend is leaving to study in another city.
Zen can not keep it (half of it wants it.)
Medaka should leave (half of it wants to stay.)
Zen simply will catch her ​​again. Nothing has changed in general.

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IMHO. Ajimu last boss.
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Old 2013-03-23, 19:02   Link #12970
Wolfenstein
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Zen simply will catch her ​​again. Nothing has changed in general.
Drop the denial.

They might very well end up toguether after Medaka matures near the end of the manga or something, when they both come toguether mutually if they still love each other by then. Heck, they probably will.

But don't degrade Zenkichi's character development by saying that he's going to do exactly what he just stated that he's changing about himself, exactly something his old self would do - the version of him that he's come to hate.
The whole point is that he won't be chasing after her anymore because that would be a waste of his life and now wouldn't ultimately make him happy anymore, chasing her just to be besides is no longer something that can fully make him content, which is why he blatently said he didn't care that he didn't look cool and that they were getting separated for a while, and why he wanted the part of him that didn't want that to be hurt. Being with Medaka is no longer his drive and sole reason for living, and that's the genesis of the results that you see in the current chapters.

Will they get toguether again in the future? Yeah, probably.

But Zenkichi has changed. And don't you try to disregard or ignore that for the purposes of shipping.
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Old 2013-03-23, 19:43   Link #12971
ccie20012
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@Wolfenstein
His words that he did not care. It's just sarcasm. These are words spoken with bitterness and pain. He will not chase after her? He is happy that she is temporarily leaving him? He cries.

See page 17. I almost caught up with you ... We have divided again.
I believe that the Zen just went to another trip to catch up with her. Directly from this page.
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:02   Link #12972
Wolfenstein
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@Wolfenstein
His words that he did not care. It's just sarcasm. These are words spoken with bitterness and pain. He will not chase after her? He is happy that she is temporarily leaving him? He cries.

See page 17. I almost caught up with you ... We have divided again.
I believe that the Zen just went to another trip to catch up with her. Directly from this page.
Shipping ruins great characters

Listen, Zenkichi clearly stated in the previous chapter that he won't keep wasting what he wants to do to be by Medaka's side. Just being by her no longer satisfies him. He's not like Hanten anymore.
So, no. He wasn't being sarcastic. He really dosen't care that he didn't look cool because he didn't have anyone to look cool to anymore. Why? Because he's done sacrificing himself to be by her side, done living to be by her side, it's no longer his sole motivation.
You're describing him as if he was his old self. Someone whose driving motivation to live is to be by Medaka's side. Something which he clearly expunged. He himself stated that he hated that he had become like Hanten, and what you're implying is that he hasn't changed from that at all.

The core of this event isn't his love for her, it's his love for the life that he currently wants, which was clashing with his love for her, so he had to pick a side. He chose to grow out of his childhood of always chasing Medaka and live what he wants to. Which is why he's becoming an adult by doing this.

And I take mild disgust at seeing you try to twist Zenkichi's character to suit shipping needs. So please, stop.
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:14   Link #12973
Lupus753
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And I take mild disgust at seeing you try to twist Zenkichi's character to suit shipping needs. So please, stop.
Unfortunately, she can't stop. One person's Twisting Characterization is another's Perfectly Rational Interpretation. This is what shipping does to people.

Me, I think Zen's being honest and nonsarcastic, but it wouldn't be the first time I misread characterization cues.
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:25   Link #12974
willx
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You people all confuse me .. what does being independent and strong have to do with shipping? How many of you are dating, engaged or married in real life or have been? Relationships require sacrifice, but they don't make you give up on yourself as a person .. geez, everyone has dreams, people will follow them and be apart for a while. Is the idea of two people that love each other being away from each other that terrifying? Is the idea that people can follow their own paths but still love each other confusing in some way?
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:28   Link #12975
Homura7
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Don't know what's gonna happen, but I must say this is the perfect chance to see some students who had little spotlight, such as the Plus Six (the two strongest of that group to clarify), Kamome or Momozono.
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:38   Link #12976
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
You people all confuse me .. what does being independent and strong have to do with shipping? How many of you are dating, engaged or married in real life or have been? Relationships require sacrifice, but they don't make you give up on yourself as a person .. geez, everyone has dreams, people will follow them and be apart for a while. Is the idea of two people that love each other being away from each other that terrifying? Is the idea that people can follow their own paths but still love each other confusing in some way?
I don't know, because I'm basically saying exactly what you are.

It's just that a certain poster is kind of twisting the motivations behind Zenkichi's actions in the current chapters, and that's something that kind of pisses me off a small tad, sorry.
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:39   Link #12977
ccie20012
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@willx
Is the idea of two people that love each other being away from each other - it's normal idea.
It's idea from real life.
P.S.
"Shipping ruins great characters" - it's only absurd (from my side).
I am read "romance comedy" + action
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:47   Link #12978
Kinali
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Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
@Wolfenstein
His words that he did not care. It's just sarcasm. These are words spoken with bitterness and pain. He will not chase after her? He is happy that she is temporarily leaving him? He cries.

See page 17. I almost caught up with you ... We have divided again.
I believe that the Zen just went to another trip to catch up with her. Directly from this page.
Well it can mean that he's trying to better himself so he can be equal to her but at his own pace. He's going after his goals instead of that one goal of chasing after her. I don't really know what they are but he's doing it to better himself and not for her. Saying he's just chasing after her its like saying Kumagawa's ultimate win is Medaka.

Speaking of Kumagawa and his ultimate win I doubt there is one anymore. If you look at it the way Sol Falling looks at Zen's and Medaka's relationship you might agree with me. Once I did that I also considered Kumagawa's love the same as theirs. There really was no proof until he gave that statement about his fear that without Medaka he would revert to his old self. All this time his so called love could have been from that. If that is not considered any proof then Zen's and Medaka's first meeting isn't any better.

The only difference now is that Kumagawa doesnt have anything holding him back anymore. He won and no matter how small of a win it was. Its still a way of him knowing he can win in the future. He now knows he doesn't need Medaka to stay the way he is and even from all that stuff that happens to him he will be happy. So in a way he can do anything from now on and that includes maybe getting with Medaka. He wont be trying to get Medaka just to be happy and to prevent him from going like his old self or for this ultimate win but because he just wants to be with her. If anything, his ultimate win was his realization of all that and that his possibilities are endless.

Now for Zen and Medaka I think they have reached that same critical point. Except, they make it more dramatic (in a way) and they will drag it out a lot longer than those 2 chapters they did for Kumagawa. Will it be easy? Who knows.

Well if you disagree with anything Sol Falling says then disregard all of this. Heck, I'm sure Sol wouldn't agree with this since he loves Kumagawa so much just like Zenkichi's fans don't agree with him. I guess that's the beauty of not choosing one character over the other. I don't care who ends up with who but I just wanted to give my thoughts on what I see after reading most of these comments. To tell you the truth I never looked at it like that until all of this. Damn shippers!
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Old 2013-03-23, 21:16   Link #12979
telamont
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About time. Unlike his defeat of Iihiko, which I saw coming the moment Shiranui was possessed, and to which my response was a "Huh. As expected. In the exact manner I expected it to happen." I've genuinely been impressed by Zenkichi these past two chapters. Defeating the big bad is a matter of course when you're a main character in a Shonen Jump manga, but this kind of change in character is a different matter altogether. Change is difficult, and such a major change in one's driving motivation even more so.

Hats off to you Zen. You've finally completed the journey to being your own man.

Really, no matter what direction the manga decides to take after this, follow Medaka around without Zen (Yes! More screen time for other people.) or follow Zen's new life (Oh well. It's been fun. Unless Zenkichi can consistently pull off stunts like the past two chapters, or the election battle.) I hope we won't return to the old status quo.

If Zenkichi has his own goals and ambitions in addition to loving Medaka, if they do get back together, at least I won't find their relationship so distasteful. In the mean time, I'll wave my Medaka x Anyone Else flag. Hopefully, Emukae has chance with Zen now. Zen x Nienami would also be amusing. If Zenkichi Box does happen, I'll keep reading for that alone.
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Old 2013-03-23, 22:32   Link #12980
Sol Falling
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Sorry about missing a couple posts from people. I've been kinda busy, haven't really had the time to come back and write huge posts.

My thoughts on dependency vis a vis Kumagawa's feelings for Medaka. If you think about it that could only apply after his reformation by her. However, Kumagawa's confession of love came before that happened. Thus 'dependency' can at best only be a part of Kumagawa's feelings for Medaka, not the root. And in fact, Kumagawa already did prove that he isn't dependent on Medaka--he didn't revert from his reformed personality, even while both Medaka and Ajimu were gone. Thus I feel that Kumagawa's happiness when Medaka returned, came from something else.

If you return to the Minus arc climax, where Kumagawa first realized he was in love with Medaka, you can basically get an explanation. Kumagawa says he is/was "fascinated" by Medaka. In this sense, you could say that Kumagawa's feelings for Medaka were always very complex. On one hand, Kumagawa definitely held hatred for Medaka--for being the strong, the perfect, the elite, the talented, representing everything which he wanted to destroy. On the other hand, for being so strong, brilliant, peerless, overwhelming, Medaka also represented everything Kumagawa wished for but couldn't have. This combination of love and hatred was what formed up Kumagawa's "fascination" towards Medaka.

The resolution to Medaka and Kumagawa's battle came when Medaka told Kumagawa that he was also strong; that she also held love and hatred for him; that with his strength, he could also win. By convincing Kumagawa that he was not so different from her Kumagawa had his reason for bearing jealousy removed. Yes, Kumagawa could also win--maybe not in that battle against Medaka, but certainly in some other place, against some other person. And that's the resolution we've had up to now. That is mostly what we've seen of Kumagawa's story.

Yes, Kumagawa found happiness and victories interacting with other people. He acted cool, showed off his abilities, and proved his superiority over minor characters. All very good and well. But was that really enough for him? And was that really enough for us, fans of Kumagawa's character?

This was exactly the question Medaka asked Kumagawa, at the start of the Shiranui Shiranai arc. Both she and Kumagawa had settled down at that point--Medaka had lost her purpose, and thus become less obsessed with fighting and challenging others; while Kumagawa had found happiness, achieving joy in his interactions with other people. So Medaka basically asked, 'is this the end of your obsession with challenging me? Will this be the end of your fascination?'. However, what Kumagawa answered was no, he would not be satisfied--that beating Medaka would still be his ultimate victory.

It is not enough for Kumagawa simply to be 'strong', or able to 'win'. The center of Kumagawa's feelings still remains Medaka, the person who represents the 'strongest' of all.

However, how exactly is Kumagawa supposed to 'beat' Medaka? In what arena? In what task? Medaka herself has already lost plenty of times, in 'games' or against inhuman opponents. Just a single victory over Medaka would not represent much, without anything on the line. Unless it managed to symbolize something greater or significant, there's no reason to call just any victory over Medaka the 'ultimate' one.

In any case, the real root of Kumagawa's desire to beat Medaka is and was his still remaining feelings. The fact that he was fascinated by her, more than any other person in the world. The true victory, and true proof of Medaka's original statement that he is the same as her (strong and capable of victory), would be if Kumagawa managed to make Medaka feel/return the same emotions as him. If Kumagawa could make Medaka fascinated by him in the same way he is fascinated by Medaka. That would truly justify them as equals, and demonstrate Kumagawa's 'worth' in a way which any simple victory could not do.

Kumagawa's original mission was to defeat and replace the 'main characters'. To prove that he was just as good as them. The Kumagawa as he is now, after he found 'happiness', can only be called a side supporting character or friend. Even if the fans don't think that way, that doesn't mean anything for the actual truth inside the story. To truly fulfill his story Kumagawa has to go all the way--displace Medaka or Zenkichi, raise himself to true equality as another main character. And the most meaningful way to do that without disrespecting any of the other characters, would be for Medaka to acknowledge him as a (romantic) partner--returning the same feelings, as Kumagawa held for her.
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