2009-01-07, 21:46 | Link #121 | |||
Gregory House
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Let me guess, you also believe the genocide committed by the Spaniards during the Conquest was the right thing to do. Quote:
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2009-01-07, 21:48 | Link #122 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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It did not come easy. It had people like you talking tough on both sides demanding blood for every bomb going off and every raid launched. It had leaders on both sides risking their all to make the peace move forward, and even harder, to hold it in face of continued sporadic assaults. It had to moderate a radicalized population plagued by decades of continuous low-scale insurgency campaign and centuries of grief and grievances and struggle. Criminals went off easy despite their previous crimes and "justice" was not always carried. Even today there are still remaining issues to be addressed. And yet it worked. There is peace there now. Their children could hope to live in a place where Sinn Fein and the Catholics wouldn't have to battle it out with the British military or the Protestants in the streets. It's a far better world for that. Pragmatic? Hell yes, for people smart enough to think long-term. Had they listened to this facetious total war crap I've been reading in many responses the last few pages I suspect we would have seen a Northern Ireland devastated and at war to this day -- or worse, a genocide by one side, which you seem to think in a supposed "pragmatic" viewpoint, though more precisely a cynical, easy viewpoint, is perfectly okay. |
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2009-01-07, 21:49 | Link #123 | ||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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Either way, the point you raise is a good one. The future of a nation due to shifting demographics is the same everywhere, though. It's based upon the question of whether the new demographic identifies with and cares for the culture and principles behind the nation that they're a part of. Quote:
Put yourself in the situation that the Israelis are in. What if one of the countries bordering yours was regularly used as a base from which suicide bombers were sent and rocket attacks were performed on your own country? My own reaction would be that my country should lodge a complaint with the country that played host to the attacks, and offer that we'd provide aid in stopping the attacks if they needed. Suppose that either yields no results or, even worse, the other country essentially responds saying that your country should be destroyed? You can bet I'd expect my government to start doing something about it. Obviously I wouldn't want civilians on the other side to be involved or incorrectly targeted, but look - they ultimately weren't doing anything to stop the violence on their end, and there's only so much that my own country would be able to do as a foreign entity (which, at this point in time, is largely limited to lobbing back a few air strikes and returning gunfire). I don't think that the Israeli people expect anything less from their government, and the government, being tasked with serving and protecting the people, is doing just that. It's a sad situation where both sides likely feel justified in what they're doing (and in their own small ways, they are), and yet the end result is much loss of life and human suffering.
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2009-01-07, 21:51 | Link #124 | |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
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Exactly. If you knew how to read, then you should have understood that there is nothing in this post that suggests me saying that Arabs deserve to die b/c of their inferiority. I tell you, your comprehension is deficient. So try reading twice so you won't expose yourself. |
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2009-01-07, 21:51 | Link #125 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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@Ledgem: As always, you helped clarified my point. Yeah, I was talking about Muslim Israelis.
Also, back me up, if I get some parts wrong here. If I remember correctly, the tension between those who advocate secularism and the ultra-Orthodox fellows have been increasing in recent memories.
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2009-01-07, 21:55 | Link #126 | |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
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We can include cultural comparisons here. The framework used in Ireland won't work in Israel. |
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2009-01-07, 21:56 | Link #127 | ||||
Gregory House
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Note that I don't consider Hamas some sort of saints. I do believe that the Palestine people had a just demand for a country of their own, though. It's always about power. Like I always say, ideologies and excuses are nothing but words. What truly matters, in the end, are the actions people take. And these are always guided by vested, personal interests--even when they say they want to "protect Israel". If they really wanted to do that they'd given Palestine their land a long time ago. Quote:
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2009-01-07, 21:59 | Link #128 | ||
Banned
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Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
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If you don't know what it means, you really must repeat primary school. |
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2009-01-07, 22:05 | Link #129 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Quite simply, it happens. It's happened in Afghanistan, it's happened in Iraq, it's happened in any theatr of war you can name. War is inherently a dangerous business. People get killed. If you don't want to be there when it happens, get the fuck out. If Hamas were so concerned about civilian casualties then why shoot rockets into Israel in the first place? If the Palestinians were so concerned about civilian casualties then why vote in a political party whose mandate is ongoing terrorist activities against Israel? When you use innocents as shields, then the collateral damage belongs to you. Blame Hamas Last edited by mg1942; 2009-01-07 at 22:36. |
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2009-01-07, 22:08 | Link #130 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
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By virtue of being the gov't in Gaza, Hamas' actions can be considered as a provocation to war against Israel. Now if Fatah was in control and Hamas fired rockets, your claims may have ground, but it isn't.
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2009-01-07, 22:16 | Link #132 | |
Gregory House
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I don't really understand how your brain can't link these concepts together.
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2009-01-07, 22:27 | Link #134 | ||
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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Ledgem: I must object to your portrayal of Israel's actions as only retaliation against Hamas' provocation. The provocation goes both ways. Certain actions of the Israeli government cannot be taken in any other way except as deliberate efforts to blockade Palestine.
You talked about the Wall a few pages back; you justified it as self-defense. I have to ask you: really? A wall? Surrounding a nation? Once again, I see the Israeli viewpoint very well that in light of history it needs to be able to defend itself from attack, but this is far, far bigger than that. Israel controls most of the water supply in the region, Palestinians are forced to suffer through what we see as human rights abuse every day, their economic condition horrible, and they are expelled from their homes by establishment of Israeli settlements. If nothing else it's practically a concrete monument of oppression. Remember that Banksy guy who went to the West Bank to paint the pretty pictures on the Wall? Yeah. He was being satirical, but the state of affairs there is a fact of life: humans, living their lives, surrounded by walls built not for their protection but to blockade them, from economic opportunities, from chances at equality, from their ancestral homes in many cases. I'm not saying that because all that, Israeli citizens deserve rockets being shot at them, that they don't deserve security in their own state, or that Hamas is right. What I see in this thread is rather an incredibly one-sided viewpoint of Israel = legitimate state and Palestinians = terrorists, and therefore terrorists just need to die. Bullshit all of them. Your viewpoint is more sophisticated than that, certainly, but I disagree with you strongly all the same. Quote:
Peace is possible. It's just unlikely, hard, even potentially fatal for many, and the only choice for people with a shred of humanity left, if I have to say so myself. Quote:
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2009-01-07, 22:33 | Link #136 | ||
Gregory House
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2009-01-07, 22:39 | Link #138 |
Gregory House
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You... you don't make any sense.
It's all opinions. We're all talking opinions. However, some opinions make sense and are consistent, and most of the reasonable ones are at least somewhat based on facts--while others, like yours, contradict themselves. You stated that the Arabs are culturally backwards as a fact. The same way you stated that you can't compare two cultures together. The same way you stated that, for some unknown magical reason, your rooting for a country that's killing dozens of civilians a day is in no way advocating for the death of those civilians. I don't know if I've been taught reading comprehension enough, but methinks that calling a culture "backwards" is putting them in some sort of magical "culture scale", which compares all cultures worldwide. What do you say, Mr Reading Comprehension? Have I been a good student?
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2009-01-07, 23:38 | Link #140 | ||||||||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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Understand that to me, Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians. I'd imagine that there are Israelis (and perhaps some on the chain of command) who would like to, or who don't mind hearing that civilians suffer. That's the human revenge instinct - "our civilians suffered, so it's only right that the other side suffers, too." However targeting civilians is not the Israeli army's policy. The same can't be said for Hamas. Partly as a result one could say that Hamas is fighting with everything that it has, but the Israeli Army is holding back. Why even bring up the issue of power? Quote:
I greatly disagree with the second part of your statement. While people have cited cases of Israel opening new settlements and attempting to push the Palestinians out, I've read a mixture of news and reports of Israel giving land back to the Palestinians and closing down Israeli settlements (sometimes to the rebellion of the Israeli residents living there). I don't doubt that Israel has put up new settlements and perhaps acted unfairly to the Palestinians, but they are also attempting to be fair. It isn't one-sided. Again I remark that I may be biased lest I really am biased and people believe me too easily, but I simply don't see how you can say that Israel is trying to get rid of the Palestinians. Ever since I was a child there were seemingly reports every one or two weeks about how a suicide bomber destroyed a bus full of people, a marketplace, a restaurant, any crowded area you could think of. Meanwhile the official government stance of Palestine (and some other Arab nation leaders, such as Saddam Hussein) at the time seemed to be that people who blew themselves up and took out a ton of Israelis were heroes and their families/associates deserved to be rewarded. I admit bias because much of my family are Israelis, and during many of my visits to Israel as a young child such attacks took place (although luckily for me, I was never near them). I puzzled over it then and I sort of still puzzle over it now: what were they trying to accomplish? If they were against the Israeli military then why didn't they attack the military? Why were they targeting the civilians? Their own doctrine and the harsh words of the leaders give the impression that they want Israel totally removed from the map. Some of the extremists even call for the extermination of all Jews. In a way, then, I find it rather ironic that you say that Israel wants to wipe out the Palestinians, when the extremist Palestinians - who just so happen to be the ones in power - are desiring the extermination of Israel. As such, while Israel isn't treating Palestine terribly kindly, what do you think they should do? It isn't that every single Palestinian hates Israel, but the ruling powers there are very anti-Israel, and some are anti-Jew. You speak of their killing civilians as though Hamas were either non-existent or as if Hamas were simply raising a flag to say "Hamas was here." Hamas is actively targeting Israelis, and Israel is only so lucky that Hamas' armament currently consists merely of crappy rockets. I would agree that some, perhaps much, of Israel's responses are excessive, but you seem to believe that Israel should be giving zero response at all. It simply isn't realistic. Hamas isn't a school ground bully looking for attention; whether Israel responds or not they'll be launching their attacks. Israel likely fears that lack of a response would only embolden Hamas to try more daring attacks and/or that more people would want to join in the attacks. On the other side, Israelis won't stand for it. Would you support a government that wasn't doing all that it could to protect you from active foreign attacks? Quote:
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I don't believe that every single Palestinian hates Israel/Jews, although it is a fact that at least some schools do attempt to educate the children to hate Israel. That's quite sad. While I don't believe that the Israelis (not the majority, anyway) are attempting to exterminate the Palestinians, I'll freely admit that they haven't always treated the Palestinians fairly. Injustices have occurred on both sides and they continue to occur, all at a great loss of human life and resources. My own desire is to see the suffering stopped and for both sides to be prosperous. Getting there is quite difficult, and I'd imagine that the longer this continues the more difficult the recovery process will be.
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Last edited by Ledgem; 2009-01-07 at 23:51. |
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