[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[TheCoconutChef]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

Another important fact that needs to be included is that Tobi is missing body parts (at least a right arm and a left hand). Furthermore, it seems that Tobi was missing limbs prior to his fight with Minato. That is really telling because if we assume that Tobi wasn't born a quadriplegic, then it follows that Tobi lost his body parts before the 9-tails attack.

Combining this with assumption a) and c), it means that we're looking for an Uchiha that we've met before, that has lost limbs prior to the 9-tails attack. Anyone come to mind?

I base the fact that he's old on what we saw of his face when he partly removed his mask before Sasuke. He was shown to be older than Kakashi and it suggested that he was at least as old as the third.

As for him missing limb, I just did not notice that at all. When was that?

I mean I just went back to chapter 502 and 503 and didn't see him missing anything.

[james0246]

Glad to see we can continue our discussion. I will try and be more civil, but please feel free to point out whenever I go too far.

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

That is personal preference. And the "simplest answer" is subjective as well. For example, pertaining to the question "Why does a man wear a mask?", the simplest answer is "Because he wants to conceal his identity".

And Kishimoto addressed this question by saying "[All] will become clear when Tobi takes off his mask, and Madara sets his ambitions in motion." What "ambitions" these are, I do not know (War? the Jyuubi? Etc), but that is the current answer as to why the mask is still on (I could make a speculation that he will not remove the mask until Sasuke's eyes are taken care of, and the failsafe is removed, but that feels a little lacking to me).

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

My method is not to assume a certain theory is true until proven otherwise, but to construct a theory that agrees with what we know. This does not lead me to Tobi=Madara because it is at odds with both Tobi's physical description and the fact that he still wears a mask and the fact that the manga is still treating this as an unresolved question despite Tobi invoking Madara's name 140 chapters ago.

But, see, it really does. When Itachi, Jiraiya, Kakashi and even Minato (though that is debatable) all step forward and argue that Tobi is Madara, then that is not evidence that is easily disproven. When Kishimoto himself says that Tobi is Madara, then that is evidence not easily disproven. We can add to what Kishimoto has laid out (which is why we often include Zetsu into the equation now), but we cannot go too far from that without entering worlds of pure speculation (which are hard to discuss considering that anything is possible when facts are left to the side and supposed "hints" become the main sources of evidence (Note, I am not saying that any “hints” concerning Obito as Tobi are irrelevant, rather I am stressing their “weight” in comparison to known facts).

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

I look at it differently. I say let the accused party be innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

And that is what I've done. Tobi says he's Madara, and multiple others agree, so that is where I start the discussion. From there I attempt to prove, based on other evidence that he is not Madara or there is something more to him (which is why I often include Zetsu in the discussion after Madara replaced his arm not too long ago). But, besides some peripheral physical details (which could very well simply be red herrings), I do not think the speculation of Obito's involvement is really needed to explain Madara/Tobi.

To put it another way, which makes more sense: Zetsu finding a gravely wounded/missing-body-parts-Madara after the VotE battle, partially healing him with goo, and Madara consequently being weaker than he was before; or Zetsu, already working with Madara somehow (or maybe just keeping hsi eyes...no we need Obito's eyes, okay maybe he summons Madara's soul), finding Obito's (confirmed dead) body (why didn't he steal any of the working Uchiha bodies?), and seemingly either shoving Madara in it, summoning Madara in it, or somehow putting Madara in the dead body.

Now, I am not being mocking or otherwise derisive when I ask this obviously rhetorical question, rather I am simply stressing my own thought process needed to explain Madara as Tobi with backing by Zetsu. (I wholly acknowledge that Madara as Tobi (without the extra helpings) is less interesting, and more simplistic.)

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

I base the fact that he's old on what we saw of his face when he partly removed his mask before Sasuke. He was shown to be older than Kakashi and it suggested that he was at least as old as the third.

In the anime, Tobi is definitely drawn old, but the maga only has a few non-descript lines that could imply age or not.

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

I mean I just went back to chapter 502 and 503 and didn't see him missing anything.

At the beginning of 503, Tobi's left hand plops off after Tobi gets a Rasengan to the spleen, kidney and or spine.


Now, for a partial bit of speculative support for Madara in a Zetsu-clone body - 1) Despite the fact that he was using Pain's cloning technique, Itachi stated that he could not use MS in the clones body; consequently, if Madara is in a Zetsu-clone body, and the clones body follows a similar rule system to Pain's clones, it is possible that Madara cannot use his MS. 2) Since Zetsu-clone bodies are malleable, it is possible that Madara can change his face at will - this would explain why he was able to get Kisame to believe that he was a Mizukage, and this would also explain why Itachi queued the failsafe for Madara's eye, not his face. (Obviously, this could also lead to other characters pretending to be Madara as Tobi, but I will leave that speculation alone for now). (Obviously this is speculation and should be treated as such.)

edit: I've posted in this thread too much recently, so I'll take a break for now.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by james0246

^I do like the idea of the parallel you describe, and one of my main speculations as to Naruto is the possibility that his "job" within the story is to correct the wrongs of the past (specifically the wrongs done by Konoha, but I guess we can go back even farther to Rikudou-Sennin, since it is his division of power that created the world's current problems). But, none of this really necessitates the Jyuubi's active or passive involvement.

Specifically, Naruto's "job" need not be solving the potential Jyuubi crisis (solving the Akatsuki led Bijuu crisis, however he accomplishes the task, would solve the Jyuubi crisis without involving the Jyuubi), but rather solving the division of power, which is the root "evil" that plagues the Shinobi world to this day, would effectively neutralize the issue. So, bringing the Senjuu and Uchiha together/bringing the 2 Rikudou brother's bloodlines together would heal the rift, and prevent the catastrophic return of the Jyuubi.

This could very well be his destiny, not defeating the Jyuubi, but solving the animosity at the heart of the world system (and in the process stopping the Jyuubi's resurrection)...

we agree that the sage of 6 dividing power created the current problems...but it was the jyuubi power that he divided. in my opinion this was inadvertent. unable to get rid of the evil for good, he divides the power and like every other naruto predecessor he leaves it to his sons (future generations) to figure out how to permanently deal with the problem. im fine with the story ending without any 10 tails involvment, but if narutos destiny is to solve the division of power, he will in effect be defeating the jyuubi. (im just a fan of this saga going full circle. if it started with a terrible evil threatening to strangle the world and then be temporarily thwarted, it should end with this evil reemerging and then thwarted for good).

Originally Posted by herculan

I find this a very very interesting point.. For me this is the first solution to creating peace in the narutoverse that sounds realistic for me.. I never thought about how important naruto's quest for sasuke was... By bonding with sasuke again he is healing the wounds between the 2 son's of the sage of the six paths.. The uchiha and the senjuu.. very tricky.

but before this happens, there better be an epic battle including a hurricane rasengan negating whatever souped up kirin sasuke develops (wind beats lightning right?) and ending with a good ol'fashioned punch to the gut, lol...no seriously, patching up this relationship is critical...it just better not be bogus

[yakumo-chan]

one thing for sure...

Tobi is an old guy... and once became a Mizukage...

this is the number 1 evidence that Tobi might not be Madara


as you can see here....

Kabuto said "I would come greet you, Tobi"

If kabuto knows he's the real Madara then he would have said "I would come greet you, Madara"

and he said... "excuse me... You go by Madara this days, Dont you?"
-> isnt this supposed to be suspicious??
I think kabuto knows he is a fake Madara...

[TheCoconutChef]

Originally Posted by herculan

where did you see that ''tobi was missing limbs prior to his fight with minato''??
Because I do remember seeing on chapter 503 page 3 that.. madara has a gap in his left arm. at first I thought that was from minato's rasengan, but it seems that the rasengans impact was somewhere els!! so I think its save to say that tobi was indeed already terribly injured before engaging into any sorts of fight.. Trails do lead back to obito somehow.. don't they?

No they don't because Obito is to young, died, and has no motive what so ever to do anything of what Tobi has done. The arm you're refering would also be Tobi's left arm, which is not the side that got crushed. This arm was also shown as being perfectly fine through chapter 502.

Furthermore, Tobi is dripping blood during that fight. The chain he's carrying is going through its hand, much like anything else physical can go through him. There is no gap.

[Artimus_Prime]

Just curious...

is adult Madara (before fight with H Senju) ever shown with two EMS eyes?...his hair always seems to cover the right eye

[herculan]

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

No they don't because Obito is to young, died, and has no motive what so ever to do anything of what Tobi has done. The arm you're refering would also be Tobi's left arm, which is not the side that got crushed. This arm was also shown as being perfectly fine through chapter 502.

Furthermore, Tobi is dripping blood during that fight. The chain he's carrying is going through its hand, much like anything else physical can go through him. There is no gap.

Kakashi has the same height as tobi in this flashback.. so it might aswell be obito... his mask + robe isn't really revealing.. Its easy to say that obito would lookexactly like that..

[Haak]

And how exactly did you determine they have the same height?

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by yakumo-chan

as you can see here....

Kabuto said "I would come greet you, Tobi"

If kabuto knows he's the real Madara then he would have said "I would come greet you, Madara"

and he said... "excuse me... You go by Madara this days, Dont you?"
-> isnt this supposed to be suspicious??
I think kabuto knows he is a fake Madara...

You're blowing it out of proportion. All he's doing is referring to Madara's old identity then his current one. He's in no way implying that Madara is anyone else, just that until this point he had been going under an alias.

[TheCoconutChef]

Originally Posted by herculan

Kakashi has the same height as tobi in this flashback.. so it might aswell be obito... his mask + robe isn't really revealing.. Its easy to say that obito would lookexactly like that..

What would Obito's motive be?

He's twelve, got crushed under a rock, but survived. His best friend and master is still alive, he can still return to his village which, as far as he's concerned, hasn't done a thing to him.

So, in the spawn of two years, instead of doing that, he somehow learns how to control the Kyubbi, learn time space jutsu, goes against his old master and village, tries to kill his son etc.

This makes no sense at all.

As for Tobi being the same height as Kakashi, that's not actually true since Kakashi is about a head smaller than a full grown man in chapter 503.

[TheCoconutChef]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

Just curious...

is adult Madara (before fight with H Senju) ever shown with two EMS eyes?...his hair always seems to cover the right eye

We never see him with his brother eyes if I remember correctly.

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by james0246

And Kishimoto addressed this question by saying "[All] will become clear when Tobi takes off his mask, and Madara sets his ambitions in motion."

Kishimoto isn't asnwering the question here. He's pointing out the two remaining mysteries regarding Tobi - namely what lies beneath the mask and what is Tobi's ultimate goal. There will be a reveal, but it's not going to happen through the databook.

But, see, it really does. When Itachi, Jiraiya, Kakashi and even Minato (though that is debatable) all step forward and argue that Tobi is Madara, then that is not evidence that is easily disproven.

The deductions of these characters is a piece of evidence. But it is one thing to regard it as evidence, and another to regard their deductions as the entire truth. Itachi didn't figure everything out. It was established that Tobi was able to keep some secrets from Itachi. Furthermore Minato was not able to come to a conclusion about Tobi. He suspects Madara, but his final verdict is that he doesn't really know. And that's the state we, as the audience, have come to as well. We suspect Madara but we also suspect that there's something else. So let's start there instead of making the assumption that we've figured out more than the story's characters have.

When Kishimoto himself says that Tobi is Madara, then that is evidence not easily disproven.

Kishimoto has never given us a definitive answer. What Kishimoto has given us is a masked villain with several unanswered questions. We'll get the definitive answer when the mask comes off.

but we cannot go too far from that without entering worlds of pure speculation (which are hard to discuss considering that anything is possible when facts are left to the side and supposed "hints" become the main sources of evidence (Note, I am not saying that any “hints” concerning Obito as Tobi are irrelevant, rather I am stressing their “weight” in comparison to known facts).

I'm basing my deductions on what I see in the manga. I don't see how that's less factual than what you base your deductions on. Is it that you think "facts" come from the databook and "hints" come from the manga?

And that is what I've done. Tobi says he's Madara, and multiple others agree, so that is where I start the discussion.

What you're doing is the opposite of what I'm doing. You're starting with the conclusion and then modifying it as we get more evidence, whereas I start with the evidence and use that to form a conclusion.

From there I attempt to prove, based on other evidence that he is not Madara or there is something more to him (which is why I often include Zetsu in the discussion after Madara replaced his arm not too long ago).

This gets to the heart of the flaw in this type of reasoning. It's nonpredictive. You start with a conclusion and then modify it, in hindsight, to fit the facts as they become available. It's not dissimilar from people who take the Bible to be the ultimate truth and then modify its interpretation as scientific facts become available.

To put it another way, which makes more sense: Zetsu finding a gravely wounded/missing-body-parts-Madara after the VotE battle, partially healing him with goo, and Madara consequently being weaker than he was before; or Zetsu, already working with Madara somehow (or maybe just keeping hsi eyes...no we need Obito's eyes, okay maybe he summons Madara's soul), finding Obito's (confirmed dead) body (why didn't he steal any of the working Uchiha bodies?), and seemingly either shoving Madara in it, summoning Madara in it, or somehow putting Madara in the dead body.

This might have been a rhetorical question or reductio ad absurdum argument, but I'll answer it anyway. In the first scenario Zetsu heals Madara soon after his apparent death at the hands of Hashirama (in Tobi's retelling of the story, Madara was shown impaled by a sword). This would mean that Tobi, as we know him, was created during that period in time. But that leaves Tobi unaccounted for between the VoTE battle and the 9-tails attack. I'm a little fuzzy on the timeline, but that has to amount to several decades of Tobi just waiting around. One could argue that he was waiting for a jinchuuriki to have a child again. But that doesn't really add up. Even after Minato thwarted his plan, Tobi claimed that there were many avenues open to him. And we know that Tobi's been very busy since his defeat by Minato - he participated in the Uchiha massacre; he became Mizukage; he took control of Akatsuki; and now he's got his Moon's eye plan. But before the 9-tails attack, where was he? Suddenly the second scenario doesn't seem as absurd as the first.

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

I base the fact that he's old on what we saw of his face when he partly removed his mask before Sasuke. He was shown to be older than Kakashi and it suggested that he was at least as old as the third.

I think that there's a very real possibility that the lines on Tobi's face aren't age wrinkles. So, I pasted together a bunch of images of wrinkly Danzou and Chiyo for comparison with the lines on Tobi's face and the lines on White Zetsu's face.

Spoiler for image:

Note that Tobi does not display the crows feet or heavy eyelids that the wrinkly Chiyo and Danzou have. And then combine this observation with our knowledge that Zetsu created other body parts for Tobi.

The features of Tobi's face do remind me of

Spoiler for image:

We know that Kishimoto has been influenced/inspired by Star Wars themes in the past. The striations under Tobi's eyes could be similar to those under Darth Vader's eyes when he was unmasked (or similarly, the ones under Palpatine's eyes). Recall that both Darth's and Palpatine's appearances were the result of scarring. We may be looking at a similar concept with Tobi. Coincidentally, Darth was also missing a few body parts.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

We never see him with his brother eyes if I remember correctly.

no in chap 386 p8 we definitely see madara with the EMS (izunas eye).

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

I think that there's a very real possibility that the lines on Tobi's face aren't age wrinkles.

i agree. the body Tobi is using is a younger/remodeled version. by his own admission at the kage summit, Madara wounds were too deep during his fight with the first and he is a mere shell of his former self, so i doubt he is moving around trying to control the nine tails with that beat up ol'body

[Suomi]

the lines on white Zetsu's face are because he's not fused with the black half

[TheCoconutChef]

They might be scar. However, the way Kishi draw scar seems to be different (ie. Kakashi).

[herculan]

Spoiler for tobi=obito:

Just saying. For me its definetly obito's body, but it might be Madara's brother controlling him behind the scenes. Or someone els, maybe zetsu!!! This fits with the theory of kabuto's coffin containing madara and kabuto saying :''your secret is save with me''..

[yakumo-chan]

Originally Posted by herculan

Spoiler for tobi=obito:

Just saying. For me its definetly obito's body, but it might be Madara's brother controlling him behind the scenes. Or someone els, maybe zetsu!!! This fits with the theory of kabuto's coffin containing madara and kabuto saying :''your secret is save with me''..

I dont think so.... check the drawing of the eyes.... its different..

[dark44]

Originally Posted by herculan

Spoiler for tobi=obito:

Just saying. For me its definetly obito's body, but it might be Madara's brother controlling him behind the scenes. Or someone els, maybe zetsu!!! This fits with the theory of kabuto's coffin containing madara and kabuto saying :''your secret is save with me''..

yes i agree in one thing he is not madra and that coffin may contain real madra and about sharingan any one can plant sharingan

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by herculan

Spoiler for tobi=obito:

Just saying. For me its definetly obito's body, but it might be Madara's brother controlling him behind the scenes. Or someone els, maybe zetsu!!! This fits with the theory of kabuto's coffin containing madara and kabuto saying :''your secret is save with me''..

you know what, i dont just agree...i absolutely agree its obitos body. but if im wrong, so be it. either way, i am very much looking forward to this reveal

[Cael]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

Spoiler for image:

Note that Tobi does not display the crows feet or heavy eyelids that the wrinkly Chiyo and Danzou have. And then combine this observation with our knowledge that Zetsu created other body parts for Tobi.

The features of Tobi's face do remind me of

Spoiler for image:

We know that Kishimoto has been influenced/inspired by Star Wars themes in the past. The striations under Tobi's eyes could be similar to those under Darth Vader's eyes when he was unmasked (or similarly, the ones under Palpatine's eyes). Recall that both Darth's and Palpatine's appearances were the result of scarring. We may be looking at a similar concept with Tobi. Coincidentally, Darth was also missing a few body parts.

I've been looking at all the True Madara pictures revealed thus far and comparing them to the shots of Tobi taking off his mask. To me, the sinlge bag under the eyes is Madara's trade mark facial feature and it is also on the face that is briefly exposed behind Tobi's mask. To me, that shows that that the face is not Madara's brother's or anyone else's, but Madara's. Age aside, because we don't really know what happend between the VotE and the Kyuubi attack. I do agree that the other lines could indicate some type of damage, and not necessarily age lines.

On the other side of the mask we are missing an eye hole. I don't know if this has been covered yet, but could it be because he used Izanagi during his fight with Hashirama (to save his life) at some point and has never been able to open his eye again, reguardless of translpant?

I noticed something else when looking back through the flashbacks... from childhood to his fight at the VotE Madara has long hair. The next time we see him he has short hair in his fight against Minato. When talking to Sasuke about Itachi, when he mentioned Itachi found him, he is shown with long hair again. This is (12 years?) after? When he shows up with Zetsu after Sasori's death, he again has short hair. Does this mean anything?