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Tyabann · 2010-02-05, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcaz2

Without love...

Don't give me that crap.

That's something Ryukishi's been having his characters parrot over and over and over, and, to be honest, it's rather suspect.

Why would he need to keep encouraging people to trust his ability to write well? Shouldn't the writing speak for itself?

Maybe it's because he's writing a mystery that doesn't initially appear to be one? Because the last time he wrote a 'mystery', it was a total asspull? Because half the scenes (as well as the narration) in Umineko are complete lies? Because the character of Featherine is a very good example of one of the things a self-respecting writer should never do?

tldr; I don't trust Ryukishi because he's proven himself to be untrustworthy.

tcaz2 · 2010-02-05, 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

If I suspect Houdini of using a submarine trick, I'm not as impressed with him.

Again, that's a personal problem. Yes, he MAY have used a submarine, but how could you possibly ever know? It's hidden behind the machinations.

It's a self-defeatist thought style with no bearing. Like the Saikoroshi-hen metaphor from Higurashi of the candy. You can't get stuck thinking "well what if the other option was better?".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

A mystery is somewhat unique among fiction because the author has to reveal how his trick works, where other authors are not necessarily bound by that. So it's like watching a magic trick, then getting it explained to you. The more the trick is "I was skilled and clever," the more impressed you are with how well he pulled it off. The more the trick is "I had a bunch of things going on backstage to make it work," the less fun it is.

The best magic tricks are the ones that take seconds to do and learn. They're just more fun. The best mysteries are the ones where a single sentence makes you smirk and praise the author's cleverness.

And yet at this point, you can't prove either. It's something you're simply assuming, when the story itself has beaten it over our heads for several Episodes that there is a ryhme and reason to each magic scene. Whether you interpret right or not is irrelevant.

If you get the mystery wrong, do you say he's a bad writer? No, you say "Boy he sure got me, I had no idea!". If you get an interpretation of someones character development wrong, why should it be different?

As I said, your whole thought process is self-defeating and cynical for no reason. It's not a special problem that only Umineko or mystery series have. Every author of a series from every walk of fiction has the same power and responsibilities.

tcaz2 · 2010-02-05, 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Don't give me that crap.

That's something Ryukishi's been having his characters parrot over and over and over, and, to be honest, it's rather suspect.

Why would he need to keep encouraging people to trust his ability to write well? Shouldn't the writing speak for itself?

Maybe it's because he's writing a mystery that doesn't initially appear to be one? Because the last time he wrote a 'mystery', it was a total asspull? Because half the scenes (as well as the narration) in Umineko are complete lies? Because the character of Featherine is a very good example of one of the things a self-respecting writer should never do?

tldr; I don't trust Ryukishi because he's proven himself to be untrustworthy.

To be frank, because his audience are for the largest part dumb asses that can't think logically to save their lives.

LyricalAura · 2010-02-05, 22:21

Since I can't do anything about people distrusting Ryukishi as an author, I'll just share a line from the end of Episode 6, when Battler wakes up after Beato's duel with Erika.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battler

......Heh, ......Heheh, ......That's a nasty trick....
You think something like this is gonna fly......? With a trick like this, the humans are all gonna be in an uproar, crying "This isn't a mystery~!" again......

Interpret it as you like.

Tyabann · 2010-02-05, 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcaz2

If you get the mystery wrong, do you say he's a bad writer? No, you say "Boy he sure got me, I had no idea!". If you get an interpretation of someones character development wrong, why should it be different?

You're completely missing the point.

Mysteries aren't normal fiction, they're a game between author and reader. The author has the responsibility to present proper and fair clues, and the reader has the responsibility to try and solve it. Umineko itself has said this much.

If we get the mystery wrong because the author was too clever for us, then we smack our foreheads and say "Bugger me! I thought I had it! This author is a bloody genius! Let's recommend his books to all our chums!" However, if we get the mystery wrong because the answer is so utterly ludicrous and illogical (read: airborne brain parasites that drive people nuts when they leave the village) then the author is an betraying hack and we all get up in arms about it. (Thank god Higurashi isn't really a mystery.)

That's what I think Renall is getting at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcaz2

To be frank, because his audience are for the largest part dumb asses that can't think logically to save their lives.

Good show patting yourself on the back there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Interpret it as you like.

A lot of this stuff puts me on guard rather than reassures me. Again, the writing should speak for itself rather than needing to be lampshaded.

tcaz2 · 2010-02-05, 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Good show patting yourself on the back there.

Did I say I wasn't part of that? This quote alone, however, makes me think you are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

A lot of this stuff puts me on guard rather than reassures me. Again, the writing should speak for itself rather than needing to be lampshaded.

Personally, I think you're just cynical and wouldn't be satisfied with anything. Why are you even reading the series if you don't like it? Drop it and leave. I think we'd all be better off.

Tyabann · 2010-02-05, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcaz2

Did I say I wasn't part of that? This quote alone, however, makes me think you are.

The way you worded that sort of implied to me that you think you're the only logical thinker here.

If that wasn't your intention then I apologize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcaz2

Personally, I think you're just cynical and wouldn't be satisfied with anything. Why are you even reading the series if you don't like it? Drop it and leave. I think we'd all be better off.

I do like this series. I wouldn't be here if I didn't. I just don't like the direction it's been going in.

Honestly though, I'm mostly in because I want a satisfying answer to the (overall) mystery, and if I can't get that and it seems that I'm not going to be getting it, then, well...

And of course I'm cynical. I've been vastly disappointed by long-awaited or long-running series before. Endless Eight can make anyone cynical.

Renall · 2010-02-05, 22:36

I wouldn't even care if he hadn't outright thrown down the gauntlet at the mystery genre itself. An unconventional take on a genre is one thing; I can respect the author for trying even if it isn't perfect.

However, ryukishi has taken it further. He's commenting on its conventions. He's criticizing its flaws. He's shouting out to fans of the genre and parodying at the same time. In ep6 he talks about the writer/reader relationship. Implicit in all of this is that his work is different in some meaningful way that will make us think differently about the topics he's brought up.

Well, when you do something like that, it's put up or shut up. If your work's got something to say about mystery, romance, the history and craft of writing, and meta-fiction, you better not be frontin'.

I suppose you might say I have unrealistically high expectations. I personally think my expectations are exactly where they're merited, because I think the author has made bold claims and now I am going to scrutinize him harder for it.

tcaz2 · 2010-02-05, 22:37

Let me clarify what I meant by my previous comment:

Just look at the series. Lets use Episode 4 as an example. Episode 4, especially Ange and Maria's story, are one long look into the essence of magic, and how it applies to the story and view of the world.

Remember what it was like back in Episode 4? There was a moderately small group that understood this. However, the VAST majority of readers dismissed it as 'Ange and Maria are delusional and mentally challenged'.

Episode 5, however, clears that up via Natsuhi's story and ham-hands you that point. Only then did people get it.

So yes, I believe I'm justified in calling the majority of his readers absolute dumb asses.

I was not originally intending to include anyone here in that category. You assumed that all on your own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

I wouldn't even care if he hadn't outright thrown down the gauntlet at the mystery genre itself. An unconventional take on a genre is one thing; I can respect the author for trying even if it isn't perfect.

However, ryukishi has taken it further. He's commenting on its conventions. He's criticizing its flaws. He's shouting out to fans of the genre and parodying at the same time. In ep6 he talks about the writer/reader relationship. Implicit in all of this is that his work is different in some meaningful way that will make us think differently about the topics he's brought up.

Well, when you do something like that, it's put up or shut up. If your work's got something to say about mystery, romance, the history and craft of writing, and meta-fiction, you better not be frontin'.

I suppose you might say I have unrealistically high expectations. I personally think my expectations are exactly where they're merited, because I think the author has made bold claims and now I am going to scrutinize him harder for it.

It's a deconstruction. And I don't recall him ever saying "my work is BETTER" like you seem to be implying in the text. He's only said it's different, and you should think about the differences. It's not a conventional mystery, or rather, it's not a mystery primarily, is the point he seems to be trying to get across.

Renall · 2010-02-05, 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcaz2

It's a deconstruction. And I don't recall him ever saying "my work is BETTER" like you seem to be implying in the text. He's only said it's different, and you should think about the differences. It's not a conventional mystery, or rather, it's not a mystery primarily, is the point he seems to be trying to get across.

An amateurish deconstruction is perhaps the worst a work can manage. It's an ambitious project and it necessitates a writer who is exceptionally skilled. Literary criticism through literature is always a minefield.

This is pretty much the reason I'm hoping Shkanon is shot down. Not because I believe it's the answer or not, but because I hope that it isn't. A good critic of the mystery genre would see that coming a mile away (and indeed, Knox did). And they would either destroy it, or show why rules have exceptions. That requires being really, really good.

Legend through Alliance gave me the feeling he was at least good enough to try. My confidence has been subsequently shaken. But it will be restored and then some if he's been pulling a rope-a-dope. I won't feel smugly satisfied about being "right." I will just be more confident in his work.

LyricalAura · 2010-02-05, 22:46

Actually, I think I will say one more thing on this subject.

Throughout the logic error portion of the story, it was repeatedly said that although the game master is technically allowed to "shift the goal posts" and alter the explanation for events on the fly, this is generally considered to be unfair.

However, Erika reached the conclusion during her duel with Beato in the guest room that this was exactly what Beato was planning to do. In other words, since Kanon could have been hiding under the bed or in the closet, Erika believed that if she only proposed one location, Beato would just shift her explanation to the other one and win that way. Erika thought she had reached the truth of the world by realizing this, and said so to Beato.

Beato just smiled gently, and crushed both of her theories at once. As she had been planning to do from the beginning.

Tyabann · 2010-02-05, 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcaz2

Remember what it was like back in Episode 4? There was a moderately small group that understood this. However, the VAST majority of readers dismissed it as 'Ange and Maria are delusional and mentally challenged'.

But... Ange and Maria ARE delusional.

Magic cannot be real (at least on a human level of reality) so the only solution as to "why Ange and Maria believe that their imaginary friends actually exist" is that they're incredibly damaged.

Their experiences support this: Maria is neglected, abused and generally mistreated by a short-tempered, slutty, and selfish mother. Ange lost her entire family, the only person who's looked after her since makes it very clear that she hates her guts, and she's constantly tormented and mistreated by all her peers. Most people tend to withdraw into themselves in that kind of situation.

Furthermore, the way Ange explains magic as only capable of being perceived by those who believe in it strikes me as rather like saying you can turn invisible only when people aren't looking at you.

I don't seem to understand what Natsuhi has to do with this, either? Besides, what does any of this have to do with 'logic'?

I don't know. Maybe you're right and I'm just too cripplingly dense to understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcaz2

It's a deconstruction. And I don't recall him ever saying "my work is BETTER" like you seem to be implying in the text. He's only said it's different, and you should think about the differences. It's not a conventional mystery, or rather, it's not a mystery primarily, is the point he seems to be trying to get across.

Let me put it like this: If the solution was, in the end, that aliens came along, resurrected everyone, beamed them to the Moon, and then blew up the mansion, would you be satisfied?

It's like that. Ryukishi has the responsibility to create something logical and satisfying, something that makes us all smack our foreheads and go "Bugger me, etc!"

Tjfarmer · 2010-02-05, 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

But... Ange and Maria ARE delusional.

Magic cannot be real (at least on a human level of reality) so the only solution as to "why Ange and Maria believe that their imaginary friends actually exist" is that they're incredibly damaged.

Their experiences support this: Maria is neglected, abused and generally mistreated by a short-tempered, slutty, and selfish mother. Ange lost her entire family, the only person who's looked after her since makes it very clear that she hates her guts, and she's constantly tormented and mistreated by all her peers. Most people tend to withdraw into themselves in that kind of situation.

Furthermore, the way Ange explains magic as only capable of being perceived by those who believe in it strikes me as rather like saying you can turn invisible only when people aren't looking at you.

I don't seem to understand what Natsuhi has to do with this, either? Besides, what does any of this have to do with 'logic'?

I don't know. Maybe you're right and I'm just too cripplingly dense to understand.

I thought Ep 4 and 5 definition of magic wasn't exactly that they were delusional, but that magic is the power of believing everything is gonna go right :P Natsuhi wants everything to go well, so she creates a Beatrice and Kinzo (still delusional, thats obvious, but since magic is a central part of the story, it still needs a definition other than delusions...).

THE POWER OF BELIEF AND LOVE

Without love, their can't be a belief that all will go well, and with that magic can't be seen.

Magic causing the killing = the will the killer put into doing it, the belief that the killings will actually happen, the reason etc.

Of course, if one doesn't give a shit about what magic has to do with anything, they can just overlook this and say delusions.

Tyabann · 2010-02-05, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

I thought Ep 4 and 5 definition of magic wasn't exactly that they were delusional, but that magic is the power of believing everything is gonna go right.

In Ange and Maria's case, this would be the other definition of delusional.

Thank you, though. I now kind of understand, although this has absolutely nothing to do with the mystery other than what might motivate people to do certain things. >_>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

Magic causing the killing = the will the killer put into doing it, the belief that the killings will actually happen, the reason etc.

You know, magic in general is starting to sound a lot like the Magic of Certainty. Which, as Lambda explains, isn't magic at all, but blind determination and the will to succeed.

imaginari · 2010-02-05, 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Interestingly, I don't believe that Jessica has ever seen the two of them together...

She hasn't, not onscreen - not even when you'd expect her to. This includes the EP2 flashback, where no one saw the two together.

Kitsu · 2010-02-05, 23:21

Quote:

She hasn't, not onscreen - not even when you'd expect her to. This includes the EP2 flashback, where no one saw the two together.

Well, as I already said there was that little mini flashback (whihc was just one of the flashs) in episode 6 that showed all three. It was shown during the duel. But even have not as everyone her has already explained it would be ridicoulous to assume that Jessica has never seen the two servants she loves dearly in their own way (romantic and oldest/best friend) who are known to be close together.

Jan-Poo · 2010-02-06, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

And of course I'm cynical. I've been vastly disappointed by long-awaited or long-running series before. Endless Eight can make anyone cynical.

But I was able to figure out the solution of the endless loop around the fourth episode ^^; and I think the hints were there... at the very least on that part I can't complain,

Anyway I kinda agree with you on most things you said in this discussion, 'though I think it's yet too early to say Ryukishi is going to pull off something ridiculous on us.

The Hinamizawa syndrome is really something that isn't possible in the real world expecially with the queen carrier factor, but as you said Higurashi wasn't really a mystery and Ryukishi he's been hinting over and over again that in Umineko such a thing is considered ridiculous as the purupurupikopyo (or whatever it's called).

I do expect some nasty trick somewhere something that will make us scream: WTF?

As LyricalAura's quote shows we have been properly prepared.

The point is how much will this be unexpected and contrary to common sense? Will it be something that I will be able to accept? Or will it be something that I will consider an infringement of the relation of trust among writer and reader?

Right now I'm not going to state neither, I'll just see and judge when the time will come. I'm neither going to defend Ryukishi neither I'm going to condemn him right now. And before you say I don't trust him, let me say that if I didn't trust him, if it was any other author at this point considering all that's been shown so far, I would have already given my negative judgement.

If Ryukishi manages to pull it off in a clean way, he will prove to be a genius. If he doesn't, he will lose my trust.

Honestly I think he placed himself into a mined field, by repeatedly telling us about trust and solvable riddles and knox rules, he has practically asked us to believe in him, to trust him regardless of all the preposterous things we have seen. But the higher is the level of trust you gain, the harsher is the rage you cause when you betray it.

I really hope he will get out unscated from that mined field.

Renall · 2010-02-06, 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Honestly I think he placed himself into a mined field, by repeatedly telling us about trust and solvable riddles and knox rules, he has practically asked us to believe in him, to trust him regardless of all the preposterous things we have seen. But the higher is the level of trust you gain, the harsher is the rage you cause when you betray it.

This is basically the irony of using the "Without love, it can't be seen" theme. He's effectively asking us, as the author to trust him even though things are looking pretty crazy. If he manages to succeed, he's proved his point. If he hasn't... well, that'd be the problem.

Tyabann · 2010-02-06, 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But I was able to figure out the solution of the endless loop around the fourth episode ^^; and I think the hints were there... at the very least on that part I can't complain,

I was more referring to the staggering disappointment of airing the same episode eight times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

This is basically the irony of using the "Without love, it can't be seen" theme. He's effectively asking us, as the author to trust him even though things are looking pretty crazy. If he manages to succeed, he's proved his point. If he hasn't... well, that'd be the problem.

This is sort of what I was getting at earlier: He shouldn't have to ask for our trust. If he was truly as competent as he seems, we'd trust him automatically.

LyricalAura · 2010-02-06, 02:01

I've thought of another way to get Kanon out of the cousins' room without giving him the Erika ball, although it makes me a little sick to my stomach.

Spoiler for Beware of twisted logic:

Kanon's real name has never been stated in red. We know there is a second person named Ushiromiya Battler who may or may not be alive. I propose that Kanon is this person. From here on, I will refer to the two of them as Real!Battler and Kanon!Battler.

When the locked rooms were destroyed, no one existed inside the rooms except the victims (Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler).
The four people, Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda, were not involved in the murders of the six people, Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler.
Kanon!Battler was the actual sixth "victim". Real!Battler remained in the guesthouse.

The six victims of the first twilight are where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva is in the honored guest room, Kyrie is in Krauss’s study, Rosa and Maria are in the parlor, and you are in the guest room!
Kanon!Battler is where he was discovered. Real!Battler is still in the cousins' room, which is a guest room. The Japanese does not distinguish between "a" and "the" in this case.

I have confirmed that the guest room is perfectly sealed. The closed room has been maintained ever since Erika confirmed Battler’s presence.
Ushiromiya Battler is not on the bed.
We have confirmed that, overlooking one place, Battler does not exist in the guest room.
Could refer to either of them, it doesn't matter.

Ushiromiya Battler does not exist inside the guest room. …That’s including the closet, with no exceptions whatsoever.
Definitely Real!Battler this time.

The rescuer is defined as the person who reset the chain lock after Battler unset it. Let us set aside the question of whether the rescue was intentional.
Kanon!Battler. There is a possibility that the "rescuer" did not intend for closing the chain to "rescue" anybody.

The one who rescued Battler was unmistakably Kanon himself.
The one who rescued Kanon!Battler was unmistakably Kanon!Battler himself.

Battler and Kanon are different people.
Real!Battler and Kanon!Battler are different people.

Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names “Erika”, “Battler”, and “Kanon” refer only to the actual people.
However, "Battler" and "Kanon" both refer to the same person. In fact, Kanon unset the chain, went out the door, and realized he couldn't reset Erika's chain from the outside. He came back inside and reset the chain, unintentionally becoming his own "rescuer". Combined with Erika's entry, a body/person crossed over the threshold three times.

I sealed the guest room at the time I investigated Battler’s death, so until I came back and broke the seal myself, entering or leaving the guest room was totally impossible. Therefore, it is confirmed that at the time I entered the room, Battler was hiding somewhere in the room.
The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seal. Limiting it further, he had no chance to escape except during the period when I was in the bathroom.
Kanon!Battler.

And after Erika searched the room and discovered Kanon in the closet, she killed him.
Kanon does not exist inside the guest room. …Naturally, this includes the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom, in their entirety.

Please, somebody kill it. I feel like Erika having typed something like that.

2010-02-06, 02:01	Link #1360
LyricalAura Dea ex Kakera Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sea of Fragments	I've thought of another way to get Kanon out of the cousins' room without giving him the Erika ball, although it makes me a little sick to my stomach. Spoiler for Beware of twisted logic: Kanon's real name has never been stated in red. We know there is a second person named Ushiromiya Battler who may or may not be alive. I propose that Kanon is this person. From here on, I will refer to the two of them as Real!Battler and Kanon!Battler. When the locked rooms were destroyed, no one existed inside the rooms except the victims (Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler). The four people, Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda, were not involved in the murders of the six people, Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler. Kanon!Battler was the actual sixth "victim". Real!Battler remained in the guesthouse. The six victims of the first twilight are where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva is in the honored guest room, Kyrie is in Krauss’s study, Rosa and Maria are in the parlor, and you are in the guest room! Kanon!Battler is where he was discovered. Real!Battler is still in the cousins' room, which is a guest room. The Japanese does not distinguish between "a" and "the" in this case. I have confirmed that the guest room is perfectly sealed. The closed room has been maintained ever since Erika confirmed Battler’s presence. Ushiromiya Battler is not on the bed. We have confirmed that, overlooking one place, Battler does not exist in the guest room. Could refer to either of them, it doesn't matter. Ushiromiya Battler does not exist inside the guest room. …That’s including the closet, with no exceptions whatsoever. Definitely Real!Battler this time. The rescuer is defined as the person who reset the chain lock after Battler unset it. Let us set aside the question of whether the rescue was intentional. Kanon!Battler. There is a possibility that the "rescuer" did not intend for closing the chain to "rescue" anybody. The one who rescued Battler was unmistakably Kanon himself. The one who rescued Kanon!Battler was unmistakably Kanon!Battler himself. Battler and Kanon are different people. Real!Battler and Kanon!Battler are different people. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names “Erika”, “Battler”, and “Kanon” refer only to the actual people. However, "Battler" and "Kanon" both refer to the same person. In fact, Kanon unset the chain, went out the door, and realized he couldn't reset Erika's chain from the outside. He came back inside and reset the chain, unintentionally becoming his own "rescuer". Combined with Erika's entry, a body/person crossed over the threshold three times. I sealed the guest room at the time I investigated Battler’s death, so until I came back and broke the seal myself, entering or leaving the guest room was totally impossible. Therefore, it is confirmed that at the time I entered the room, Battler was hiding somewhere in the room. The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seal. Limiting it further, he had no chance to escape except during the period when I was in the bathroom. Kanon!Battler. And after Erika searched the room and discovered Kanon in the closet, she killed him. Kanon does not exist inside the guest room. …Naturally, this includes the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom, in their entirety. Please, somebody kill it. I feel like Erika having typed something like that. Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-02-06 at 02:11.

2010-02-05, 22:36	Link #1348
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	I wouldn't even care if he hadn't outright thrown down the gauntlet at the mystery genre itself. An unconventional take on a genre is one thing; I can respect the author for trying even if it isn't perfect. However, ryukishi has taken it further. He's commenting on its conventions. He's criticizing its flaws. He's shouting out to fans of the genre and parodying at the same time. In ep6 he talks about the writer/reader relationship. Implicit in all of this is that his work is different in some meaningful way that will make us think differently about the topics he's brought up. Well, when you do something like that, it's put up or shut up. If your work's got something to say about mystery, romance, the history and craft of writing, and meta-fiction, you better not be frontin'. I suppose you might say I have unrealistically high expectations. I personally think my expectations are exactly where they're merited, because I think the author has made bold claims and now I am going to scrutinize him harder for it.

2010-02-05, 22:46	Link #1351
LyricalAura Dea ex Kakera Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sea of Fragments	Actually, I think I will say one more thing on this subject. Throughout the logic error portion of the story, it was repeatedly said that although the game master is technically allowed to "shift the goal posts" and alter the explanation for events on the fly, this is generally considered to be unfair. However, Erika reached the conclusion during her duel with Beato in the guest room that this was exactly what Beato was planning to do. In other words, since Kanon could have been hiding under the bed or in the closet, Erika believed that if she only proposed one location, Beato would just shift her explanation to the other one and win that way. Erika thought she had reached the truth of the world by realizing this, and said so to Beato. Beato just smiled gently, and crushed both of her theories at once. As she had been planning to do from the beginning.