2010-02-05, 22:10 | Link #1341 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Don't give me that crap. That's something Ryukishi's been having his characters parrot over and over and over, and, to be honest, it's rather suspect.
Why would he need to keep encouraging people to trust his ability to write well? Shouldn't the writing speak for itself? Maybe it's because he's writing a mystery that doesn't initially appear to be one? Because the last time he wrote a 'mystery', it was a total asspull? Because half the scenes (as well as the narration) in Umineko are complete lies? Because the character of Featherine is a very good example of one of the things a self-respecting writer should never do? tldr; I don't trust Ryukishi because he's proven himself to be untrustworthy. |
2010-02-05, 22:14 | Link #1342 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
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It's a self-defeatist thought style with no bearing. Like the Saikoroshi-hen metaphor from Higurashi of the candy. You can't get stuck thinking "well what if the other option was better?". Quote:
If you get the mystery wrong, do you say he's a bad writer? No, you say "Boy he sure got me, I had no idea!". If you get an interpretation of someones character development wrong, why should it be different? As I said, your whole thought process is self-defeating and cynical for no reason. It's not a special problem that only Umineko or mystery series have. Every author of a series from every walk of fiction has the same power and responsibilities. |
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2010-02-05, 22:16 | Link #1343 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
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2010-02-05, 22:21 | Link #1344 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Since I can't do anything about people distrusting Ryukishi as an author, I'll just share a line from the end of Episode 6, when Battler wakes up after Beato's duel with Erika.
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2010-02-05, 22:24 | Link #1345 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Mysteries aren't normal fiction, they're a game between author and reader. The author has the responsibility to present proper and fair clues, and the reader has the responsibility to try and solve it. Umineko itself has said this much. If we get the mystery wrong because the author was too clever for us, then we smack our foreheads and say "Bugger me! I thought I had it! This author is a bloody genius! Let's recommend his books to all our chums!" However, if we get the mystery wrong because the answer is so utterly ludicrous and illogical (read: airborne brain parasites that drive people nuts when they leave the village) then the author is an betraying hack and we all get up in arms about it. (Thank god Higurashi isn't really a mystery.) That's what I think Renall is getting at. Quote:
A lot of this stuff puts me on guard rather than reassures me. Again, the writing should speak for itself rather than needing to be lampshaded. Last edited by Tyabann; 2010-02-05 at 22:36. |
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2010-02-05, 22:30 | Link #1346 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Did I say I wasn't part of that? This quote alone, however, makes me think you are.
Personally, I think you're just cynical and wouldn't be satisfied with anything. Why are you even reading the series if you don't like it? Drop it and leave. I think we'd all be better off. |
2010-02-05, 22:34 | Link #1347 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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If that wasn't your intention then I apologize. Quote:
Honestly though, I'm mostly in because I want a satisfying answer to the (overall) mystery, and if I can't get that and it seems that I'm not going to be getting it, then, well... And of course I'm cynical. I've been vastly disappointed by long-awaited or long-running series before. Endless Eight can make anyone cynical. |
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2010-02-05, 22:36 | Link #1348 |
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I wouldn't even care if he hadn't outright thrown down the gauntlet at the mystery genre itself. An unconventional take on a genre is one thing; I can respect the author for trying even if it isn't perfect.
However, ryukishi has taken it further. He's commenting on its conventions. He's criticizing its flaws. He's shouting out to fans of the genre and parodying at the same time. In ep6 he talks about the writer/reader relationship. Implicit in all of this is that his work is different in some meaningful way that will make us think differently about the topics he's brought up. Well, when you do something like that, it's put up or shut up. If your work's got something to say about mystery, romance, the history and craft of writing, and meta-fiction, you better not be frontin'. I suppose you might say I have unrealistically high expectations. I personally think my expectations are exactly where they're merited, because I think the author has made bold claims and now I am going to scrutinize him harder for it. |
2010-02-05, 22:37 | Link #1349 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Let me clarify what I meant by my previous comment:
Just look at the series. Lets use Episode 4 as an example. Episode 4, especially Ange and Maria's story, are one long look into the essence of magic, and how it applies to the story and view of the world. Remember what it was like back in Episode 4? There was a moderately small group that understood this. However, the VAST majority of readers dismissed it as 'Ange and Maria are delusional and mentally challenged'. Episode 5, however, clears that up via Natsuhi's story and ham-hands you that point. Only then did people get it. So yes, I believe I'm justified in calling the majority of his readers absolute dumb asses. I was not originally intending to include anyone here in that category. You assumed that all on your own. Quote:
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2010-02-05, 22:44 | Link #1350 | |
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This is pretty much the reason I'm hoping Shkanon is shot down. Not because I believe it's the answer or not, but because I hope that it isn't. A good critic of the mystery genre would see that coming a mile away (and indeed, Knox did). And they would either destroy it, or show why rules have exceptions. That requires being really, really good. Legend through Alliance gave me the feeling he was at least good enough to try. My confidence has been subsequently shaken. But it will be restored and then some if he's been pulling a rope-a-dope. I won't feel smugly satisfied about being "right." I will just be more confident in his work. |
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2010-02-05, 22:46 | Link #1351 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Actually, I think I will say one more thing on this subject.
Throughout the logic error portion of the story, it was repeatedly said that although the game master is technically allowed to "shift the goal posts" and alter the explanation for events on the fly, this is generally considered to be unfair. However, Erika reached the conclusion during her duel with Beato in the guest room that this was exactly what Beato was planning to do. In other words, since Kanon could have been hiding under the bed or in the closet, Erika believed that if she only proposed one location, Beato would just shift her explanation to the other one and win that way. Erika thought she had reached the truth of the world by realizing this, and said so to Beato. Beato just smiled gently, and crushed both of her theories at once. As she had been planning to do from the beginning. |
2010-02-05, 22:52 | Link #1352 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Their experiences support this: Maria is neglected, abused and generally mistreated by a short-tempered, slutty, and selfish mother. Ange lost her entire family, the only person who's looked after her since makes it very clear that she hates her guts, and she's constantly tormented and mistreated by all her peers. Most people tend to withdraw into themselves in that kind of situation. Furthermore, the way Ange explains magic as only capable of being perceived by those who believe in it strikes me as rather like saying you can turn invisible only when people aren't looking at you. I don't seem to understand what Natsuhi has to do with this, either? Besides, what does any of this have to do with 'logic'? I don't know. Maybe you're right and I'm just too cripplingly dense to understand. Quote:
It's like that. Ryukishi has the responsibility to create something logical and satisfying, something that makes us all smack our foreheads and go "Bugger me, etc!" |
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2010-02-05, 23:01 | Link #1353 | |
I'm almost there!
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THE POWER OF BELIEF AND LOVE Without love, their can't be a belief that all will go well, and with that magic can't be seen. Magic causing the killing = the will the killer put into doing it, the belief that the killings will actually happen, the reason etc. Of course, if one doesn't give a shit about what magic has to do with anything, they can just overlook this and say delusions. |
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2010-02-05, 23:05 | Link #1354 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Thank you, though. I now kind of understand, although this has absolutely nothing to do with the mystery other than what might motivate people to do certain things. >_> You know, magic in general is starting to sound a lot like the Magic of Certainty. Which, as Lambda explains, isn't magic at all, but blind determination and the will to succeed. |
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2010-02-05, 23:21 | Link #1356 | |
The unlucky one
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
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2010-02-06, 00:05 | Link #1357 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Anyway I kinda agree with you on most things you said in this discussion, 'though I think it's yet too early to say Ryukishi is going to pull off something ridiculous on us. The Hinamizawa syndrome is really something that isn't possible in the real world expecially with the queen carrier factor, but as you said Higurashi wasn't really a mystery and Ryukishi he's been hinting over and over again that in Umineko such a thing is considered ridiculous as the purupurupikopyo (or whatever it's called). I do expect some nasty trick somewhere something that will make us scream: WTF? As LyricalAura's quote shows we have been properly prepared. The point is how much will this be unexpected and contrary to common sense? Will it be something that I will be able to accept? Or will it be something that I will consider an infringement of the relation of trust among writer and reader? Right now I'm not going to state neither, I'll just see and judge when the time will come. I'm neither going to defend Ryukishi neither I'm going to condemn him right now. And before you say I don't trust him, let me say that if I didn't trust him, if it was any other author at this point considering all that's been shown so far, I would have already given my negative judgement. If Ryukishi manages to pull it off in a clean way, he will prove to be a genius. If he doesn't, he will lose my trust. Honestly I think he placed himself into a mined field, by repeatedly telling us about trust and solvable riddles and knox rules, he has practically asked us to believe in him, to trust him regardless of all the preposterous things we have seen. But the higher is the level of trust you gain, the harsher is the rage you cause when you betray it. I really hope he will get out unscated from that mined field.
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2010-02-06, 00:49 | Link #1358 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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2010-02-06, 01:37 | Link #1359 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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2010-02-06, 02:01 | Link #1360 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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I've thought of another way to get Kanon out of the cousins' room without giving him the Erika ball, although it makes me a little sick to my stomach.
Spoiler for Beware of twisted logic:
Please, somebody kill it. I feel like Erika having typed something like that. Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-02-06 at 02:11. |
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