Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

1 is still different from 2.

Wide, but shallow.

Plot points? You mean the heroes losing to the new antagonists?

Pretty sure Justin already listed which points here.

Originally Posted by Keroko

2 months have passed since the last battle. Obviously they have.

Months?

Infiltration like what you suggested can take years. Worming your way inside is not a walk in a park.

And let's not forget that while they might not force him to play it their way and just leave him be, they won't even consider his opinions until he's proved himself to be part of them and the only way to do that is to play it their way.

It's effectiveness against Dividers has already been demonstrated, Vita is an expert at using hammers. A little mathcount tells us yes.

But the detail specs are different. Saying that using one hammer means capable of using another which as different modes and capabilities is like saying that a fencer can instantly use a katana.

Volume 7, page 23. Yes, reacting activates the anti-magic.

Er, no. That page only states that "the shared functions of the divider are the breaking of bonds in magical energy". It never stated whether it is an automatic or manual feature, as in whether there's a "automatically begin anti-magic feature on start-up" option. And since I don't see any solid proof of Fate bypassing those anti-magic circles similar to what had blocked Signum's flames, I still believe the big guy merely hadn't activate the anti-magic shield yet.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Pretty sure Justin already listed which points here.

All of which were completely superficial. General concept of the villains? What, that they're both families? The Numbers were a family so was StrikerS copying A's too? Massive overhaul of weapons? The upgrades in A's were hardly massive and it only happened to 2 devices. Books are involved? Okay, yeah, but the Book of Darkness is very different from the Silver Cross.

Having small intersections like that are definitely not strong grounds for saying that they're phoning it in by copying the forumla of A's.

[itanshi1]

Besides its the same world. So tech from different eras will have some continuity, heck they might be from the same era (possible the scientists studied logia books, or data on them to make new ones)

How do we know these eclipses users weren't created from the same tech from back then or new tech based on old tech? Copying may be intentional by the scientists.

Reverse engineering is very applicable in war fare.

[Akiyoshi]

^ This actually sounds plausible.

Some theory that circles my head is based on the possibility of the Silver Cross being reverse enginered from the Book of Darkness. The similitudes are too blatantly to be ignored, the Stroseks even have a strong resemblance with Reinforce Eins and Tohma/Curren feel like two different sides of Hayate.

[itanshi1]

Not sure if thats possible, too convenient, or that Belka had a lot of books and these are all we have to draw upon

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

Not sure if thats possible, too convenient, or that Belka had a lot of books and these are all we have to draw upon

At least it will be plotwise convenient. You know how stories like to have things and/or characters interconnected so they can reveal the secrets slowly.

...also will make more sense of that scene with Reinforce Eins in the prologue chapter xD.

[itanshi1]

Ah, that could make a decent Chekov device, but want to know my theory? That's not Reinforce, but her creator :3

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

Ah, that could make a decent Chekov device, but want to know my theory? That's not Reinforce, but her creator :3

The creator of the original Reinforce? I'll guess you're trying to say that woman on the prologue was the original creator of the Tome of the Night Sky and created Reinforce in her image and likeness.

[Zero Hurricane]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Some theory that circles my head is based on the possibility of the Silver Cross being reverse enginered from the Book of Darkness. The similitudes are too blatantly to be ignored, the Stroseks even have a strong resemblance with Reinforce Eins and Tohma/Curren feel like two different sides of Hayate.

If this theory proven, there is a possibility that the Silver Cross itself also has a evil aspect which is the source of endless Eclipse conflict until now. The question is: who is the rough equivalent of "The Darkness of Book of Darkness?" itself?

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

The creator of the original Reinforce? I'll guess you're trying to say that woman on the prologue was the original creator of the Tome of the Night Sky and created Reinforce in her image and likeness.

It could be the woman creates copies of herself in the hope that that doesn't become a weapon of mass destruction living like her, but failed. Likewise with Reinforce Eins, possibly creating Strosek first generation, which is a downgrade from herself.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Key Board

Err. Batman is for a different target audience, and I'd even say a different generation.

Sephiroth and Sasuke are EXTREMELY easy for teenagers to empathize with They relate with said characters' contempt for rules and authority.

Especially the ones they are going through, "I want to be dark and edgy!" phase

also see: http://en.dic.pixiv.net/a/Chuunibyou

Judging from the way you pharse it, I'm pretty sure you've grown up with FF7. How many "Sephiroth is so cool! I want to be like him! The world is screwed up and needs to be punished" comments did you hear from your peers? Or maybe you were one of them? For me, I lost count.

And they are trying to do this dark and edgy thing for Touma in Force too. It's just that he is not chuunibyou enough for now. What kind of chuunibyou with dark and egdy powers works with adults, much less ::GASP:: law enforcement? Unthinkable!

Again, the specific names aren't the point. There are thousands of popular characters who people people can't possibly relate to, yet they remain popular. In the same vein, characters don't have to represent the lives of the audience for people to put themselves into the fantasy. Nobody knows what it's like to be an alien with superpowers from the planet Krypton, yet that doesn't stop people from liking the character and even putting themselves into the superman fantasy.

Indeed vast difference can be just as much an attraction to characters. It speaks to the imagination. Very few among us can say they've experienced what Fate went through, yet even so she is the most popular character in the franchise. Why? Because while most cannot know what it was like for Fate, we can all imagine.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

A success against big targets, we can't talk about War Hammer's sucess against human-sized targets until we see evidence.

*sigh* Okay. Nevertheless, it was still a success in its use. Like you said, we don't know how it'd do against human-sized opponents, so you can't call that part a failure any more than you can call it a success.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Wrong, she hasn't fully recovered yet. She's just masochistic enough to rise from the bed and fight with possible spine injury. Also she will probably be handicapped for the rest of the season or even the rest of her life.

Okay, so not fully recovered, but she did recover. And going into battle with half finished business is again part of the franchise. Nanoha and Fate both went into battle with dangerous, untested cartridges (Nanoha after only just having recovered even) with Raising Heart even getting 'not having been strengthened, so avoid supermode' type warning. Didn't matter one bit in the end.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

StrikerS showed that formula is not entirely necessary, neither Nanoha, Fate or Signum "lose" before winning on that season.

There were losses though. Vita got utterly defeated by Zest, Subaru got "mision failed" by Cinque and even Fate got 'defeated' by the enemy, who had accomplished their goal of holding her off.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

It may be not detrimental to the story as a whole(but i don't know it because i'm biased remember xD?). But is detrimental to Signum's character and what she used to provoke in viewers. But well, i guess there's no point on going deeper into that because we agreed with Keroko before in that Signum is just a dispossable benchwarmer for Tsuzuki.

I don't recall ever agreeing to this, please don't put words into my mouth.

Regardless, yes, her loss may have dampened her view of her fans as somehow being invincible, but how that affects your view of the character is -again- something entirely subjective, and thus not a good example of bad writing.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Oh yeah, i forgot to ask. This hasn't to do much with the current debate but ...when that happened? I don't remember Fate getting almost "sliced appart", unless you're counting Erio's trump onver her in ViVid as that xDU.

Signum has a sword and nearly slashed Fate apart several times. If we're going to count near hits, it's only fitting we count all of them.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Months?

Infiltration like what you suggested can take years. Worming your way inside is not a walk in a park.

And let's not forget that while they might not force him to play it their way and just leave him be, they won't even consider his opinions until he's proved himself to be part of them and the only way to do that is to play it their way.

The Hucks are a pretty open family, and he's already been invited, so 'worming his way inside' would only take as long as it takes for him to travel there. And said openness also means that he doesn't exactly have to prove himself.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

But the detail specs are different. Saying that using one hammer means capable of using another which as different modes and capabilities is like saying that a fencer can instantly use a katana.

Remind me, which detail specs are different to warant an entire new skillset?

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Er, no. That page only states that "the shared functions of the divider are the breaking of bonds in magical energy". It never stated whether it is an automatic or manual feature, as in whether there's a "automatically begin anti-magic feature on start-up" option. And since I don't see any solid proof of Fate bypassing those anti-magic circles similar to what had blocked Signum's flames, I still believe the big guy merely hadn't activate the anti-magic shield yet.

"once reacted, blades and magic no longer work on us." Not "once reacted, we can counter blades and magic" but "no longer work." That shows automation.

And pray tell, if it is manual, why would DeVille not channel anti-magic -his biggest advantage- in an attack?

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

Not sure if thats possible, too convenient, or that Belka had a lot of books and these are all we have to draw upon

Magics books are basically Ancient Belkan Flash Drives.

[Sheba]

S> Kaiser's Tome of Gay Porn

[LostSome]

^Thoma, run !

In what way the BotSC can be call "Evil" ?
All it ever did on its own accord was "protecting its driver".
Very basic AI and the way it does it is very basic too.
With Thoma`s going suicidal, I can understand the book taking over since it had to protect its driver from himself. :k
I don`t see anything that looks like a persona in the Book.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

*sigh* Okay. Nevertheless, it was still a success in its use. Like you said, we don't know how it'd do against human-sized opponents, so you can't call that part a failure any more than you can call it a success.

Innocent until proven otherwise? Deal. I think it's a fair approach xD.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Okay, so not fully recovered, but she did recover. And going into battle with half finished business is again part of the franchise. Nanoha and Fate both went into battle with dangerous, untested cartridges (Nanoha after only just having recovered even) with Raising Heart even getting 'not having been strengthened, so avoid supermode' type warning. Didn't matter one bit in the end.

Ok, i'll give this issue the benefit of the doubt for now and wait to see what happens.

Originally Posted by Keroko

There were losses though. Vita got utterly defeated by Zest, Subaru got "mision failed" by Cinque and even Fate got 'defeated' by the enemy, who had accomplished their goal of holding her off.

Fate's "defeat" was more like a gloat of the cyborgs xDU.

Originally Posted by Keroko

I don't recall ever agreeing to this, please don't put words into my mouth.

Regardless, yes, her loss may have dampened her view of her fans as somehow being invincible, but how that affects your view of the character is -again- something entirely subjective, and thus not a good example of bad writing.

I was answering to Raiser but yeah, opinions are subjective, but almost all criticism is subjective anyway. I'm not accusing Force of bad writing anymore, i'm just saying i think that won't work for Signum's character, but you seem to somewhat agree so it's ok.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Signum has a sword and nearly slashed Fate apart several times. If we're going to count near hits, it's only fitting we count all of them.

With "nearly ripped appart" i wasn't talking about the possibility of being cut by a blade but by the very real event happening, Signum got cross-slashe in a way that is a luck she wasn't diced in pieces. Fate was in peril of suffer this, i acknowledge that, but she was never a victim of this.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Remind me, which detail specs are different to warant an entire new skillset?

I can think of something specific but for example, i'm pretty sure her iron balls wouldn't work with the War Hammer, she also can't realy on her defenses or toughness while using that against EC Drivers which is a big disadvantage for Vita as she relies on her defense/endurance even more than Signum. Curren already demonstrated how vulnerable Vita is now so i'm guessing what will be her fightstyle with the War Hammer, she will need to think about things like dodge or parry which we now aren't her speciality.

Originally Posted by Keroko

"once reacted, blades and magic no longer work on us." Not "once reacted, we can counter blades and magic" but "no longer work." That shows automation.

And pray tell, if it is manual, why would DeVille not channel anti-magic -his biggest advantage- in an attack?

There's also the possibility that was only Cypha gloating to make Signum fall into despair. But i agree with you in that there's no confirmation of that yet.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Fate's "defeat" was more like a gloat of the cyborgs xDU.

Well, yes. It was a defeat in terms of objectives. Fate was trying to stop Jails attack and apprehend the attackers, the cyborgs were trying to stop her from doing so. They succeeded, Fate did not.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I was answering to Raiser but yeah, opinions are subjective, but almost all criticism is subjective anyway. I'm not accusing Force of bad writing anymore, i'm just saying i think that won't work for Signum's character, but you seem to somewhat agree so it's ok.

True, there's a really fine line between objective and subjective criticism, and it's sometimes hard to see which is which.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

With "nearly ripped appart" i wasn't talking about the possibility of being cut by a blade but by the very real event happening, Signum got cross-slashe in a way that is a luck she wasn't diced in pieces. Fate was in peril of suffer this, i acknowledge that, but she was never a victim of this.

True.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I can think of something specific but for example, i'm pretty sure her iron balls wouldn't work with the War Hammer, she also can't realy on her defenses or toughness while using that against EC Drivers which is a big disadvantage for Vita as she relies on her defense/endurance even more than Signum. Curren already demonstrated how vulnerable Vita is now so i'm guessing what will be her fightstyle with the War Hammer, she will need to think about things like dodge or parry which we now aren't her speciality.

This reminded me, technically, her warhammer is little different from Graf Eisen's giant drill we saw at the end of StrikerS, so Vita already has experience with that type of weapon.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

There's also the possibility that was only Cypha gloating to make Signum fall into despair. But i agree with you in that there's no confirmation of that yet.

Here I will take a page from key board's book for a moment and say that unless the character is stated to be bluffing, there is no reason to assume she is.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

This reminded me, technically, her warhammer is little different from Graf Eisen's giant drill we saw at the end of StrikerS, so Vita already has experience with that type of weapon.

I was about to say Vita only used the Destruction form against the Cradle's generator but suddenly i remembered her using it during the forwards's graduation match at the end of StrikerS anime. I'm really curious about how that worked, those damn offscreen battles xDU.

[Key Board]

I've been wondering

All Nanoha seasons have a staple theme: saving the tragic villain

in the first season it was Fate
in A's it was Hayate
in StrikerS it was Vivio
and in the first half of Force it was Touma

so law requires that Touma will save someone in the next half of Force

the question is, who might this be? Stella, Veyron, someone else not revealed yet?

Who will be the iconic tragic villain of the later half of Force?

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I was about to say Vita only used the Destruction form against the Cradle's generator but suddenly i remembered her using it during the forwards's graduation match at the end of StrikerS anime. I'm really curious about how that worked, those damn offscreen battles xDU.

I personally think that Destruction Form is an Anti-Structure mode, using only against stationary, extremely-fortified hard targets.

There was no such target in A's (discounting the Defense Program, which really should have tried moving), so she didn't use it.

The Cradle's power core, on the other hand, was absolutely stationary, and extremely well-fortified.


The artists drew Destruction Form for the final fight against the Forwards because they had no understanding of "anti-climax" -- that is, every moment does NOT have to be progressively MORE AWESOME than the last moment, and Super Modes do not have to become the new default.

It's the same reason that Nanoha and Fate are leading with Excellion Mode and Zanber Form, despite the fact that neither of them would or should begin a sparring session with their Full Drives.

Also, Destruction Form, Excellion Mode and Zanber Form are not all-purpose general power-ups, but very specific in the kinds of moves they allow. Using those forms lock all three of them out of using simpler, cheaper, faster shooting spells, which they might need in the openning act of a fight.

[LostSome]

Originally Posted by Key Board

I've been wondering

All Nanoha seasons have a staple theme: saving the tragic villain

in the first season it was Fate
in A's it was Hayate
in StrikerS it was Vivio
and in the first half of Force it was Touma

so law requires that Touma will save someone in the next half of Force

the question is, who might this be? Stella, Veyron, someone else not revealed yet?

Who will be the iconic tragic villain of the later half of Force?

Tragic villain ?
In what way Hayate can be seen as a villain ? The Wolks ? OK, but Hayate...
Same with Vivio, Lutecia fits the bill a lot more.
I know Thoma looks the part, still...

I think "saving those who can`t be saved" is what you`re talking about.

I`ll say Isis. What evil is hiding in that bag ?!

[Justin_Brett]

I'd like there to be a reason for him to do that first, personally.