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[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Historically, Islamic countries have actually been quite tolerant of Jews. At least compared to Christian Europe.

thats the catch here.
its like saying that the KKK was quite tolerant of Jews when compared to how the Nazi's treated them.
Jews were still discriminated against in various ways, including :
1)forbidden from riding horses
2)carrying weapons.
3)testifying in court
4)marrying muslim women.
5)forced to pay a jizya tax.
and were often subject to violence and pogroms dating back MUCH earlier then Israel's creation.

the Myth of "Islamic countries have actually been quite tolerant of Jews" is exactly that.
a Myth.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Even if Arab leaders first started using it as a scapegoating tactic, Israel has done plenty to justify the poor view arabs have of it. You have to bear in mind, that arabs see Israel as a foreign entity, occupying land that is rightfully there. The extremely high wealth disparity between Palestinians and Israelis only confirms Israel's illegitimacy.

and yet, the high wealth disparity between Israeli's and Egyptians or Israeli's and Syrians doesn't confirm it ?
what does it hate to do with anything.

Just like Jews in Israel feel sympathy when Jews are discriminated against around the world, Arabs outside the Levant feel immense sympathy with Palestinians.

the Arabs detest the Palestinians.
they sympathize with the "Palestinian CAUSE", but as a people, the Arabs universally consider the Palestinians as scumbags.
and not without being given good reason for it.

Originally Posted by Haak

I want to see if he's going to mention two specific wars between Israel and Egypt. It just seems rarther strange to me that he had yet to point them out despite them obviously being important.

I'm guessing (we had more then just two) you mean the 1956 one that was the result of Egypt closing the straits of tiran to Israeli shippings and repeated attacks by "Fedayeen" coming out of Egyptian controlled Gaza.

and the 1967 war that was the result of Egypt and Syria concentrating large troop build up on Israel's borders in clear violation of the 1956 Armistice agreement.
and also closing the straits of tiran to Israeli shippings. again.

both cases saw Arab actions against Israel which ended up backfiring when Israel chose to retaliate.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the Arabs detest the Palestinians.
they sympathize with the "Palestinian CAUSE", but as a people, the Arabs universally consider the Palestinians as scumbags.
and not without being given good reason for it.

You think about what reason(s) ? What happened in Jordania ?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

I'm guessing (we had more then just two) you mean the 1956 one that was the result of Egypt closing the straits of tiran to Israeli shippings and repeated attacks by "Fedayeen" coming out of Egyptian controlled Gaza.

and the 1967 war that was the result of Egypt and Syria concentrating large troop build up on Israel's borders in clear violation of the 1956 Armistice agreement.
and also closing the straits of tiran to Israeli shippings. again.

both cases saw Arab actions against Israel which ended up backfiring when Israel chose to retaliate.

Lets assume that's the entire context. So why did Egypt do those things? How did anti-semitism become adopted so easily?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

You think about what reason(s) ? What happened in Jordania ?

and Lebanon, and Kuwait, and the results of their actions in Egypt, and Syria.
lets just say that they are viewed as trouble makers at best.

Originally Posted by Haak

Lets assume that's the entire context. So why did Egypt do those things? How did anti-semitism become adopted so easily?

because it hadn't just "suddenly" been adopted.
its been around the Islamic world for over a thousand years.
look up Battle of Khaybar, viewed till today as one of Islams greatest victories... against the Jews.
and this all the way back in Muhammad's time.

[Haak]

So what you're saying is that the Zionists/Israelis had in absolutely no way done anything to cause the muslim world to hate them?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Haak

So what you're saying is that the Zionists/Israelis had in absolutely no way done anything to cause the muslim world to hate them?

what I'm saying, and this is something you should pay VERY close attention to.
they don't hate us because we do things that make them hate us.
we do things, that often make them hate us more then they already do, in response to things that they do, because they already hate us to begin with.

case in point.
the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organisation) was created THREE YEARS BEFORE the six day war when Israel conquered what is now known as "the palestinian territories).
what do you think they wanted to liberate back then ?

and anti-semitism has been around the Islamic would for MUCH longer then Israel's existence.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Haak

So what you're saying is that the Zionists/Israelis had in absolutely no way done anything to cause the muslim world to hate them?

In the case of the Egypt and Syria you should look at Pan-Arabian ideals. Political movements in several Arab countries exploited the frictions caused by the immigration of European Jews in to Palastine, during the first half of the 20st century, as a rallying point to strenghten a national identity. This really gave a boost to already existing antisemitic notions.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

what I'm saying, and this is something you should pay VERY close attention to.
they don't hate us because we do things that make them hate us.
we do things, that often make them hate us more then they already do, in response to things that they do, because they already hate us to begin with.

I'm already aware of that. I'm also aware that this is very likely their mentality aswell. It's just a ridiculous cycle of revenge where both sides think the other is to blame.

What I'm trying to get at is that those responses that Israel carry out that makes them hate Israel more than they already do could've have probably been avoided or atleast limited. Like when during the Mandate period when the Jews specifically said they would take over Palestine just because they thought it was theirs to begin with and only managed gain Palestinian land and pass the Partition plan because of intense corruption lobbying. Like when during the 1949 war when Israel ethnically cleansed Palestinian villages. Like when when the Lavon Affair happened. Like when the Israeli government brutally oppressed the Palestinians under occupation and in Israel. Like when Israel atleast indirectly allowed refugees in Sabra and Shatila in Lebanon to be massacred. Like when Israel decided that it's okay to built settlements in Palestinian land thanks to a loophole.

case in point.
the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organisation) was created THREE YEARS BEFORE the six day war when Israel conquered what is now known as "the palestinian territories).
what do you think they wanted to liberate back then ?

The 5 million palestinian refugees living in poverty and what they believed to Palestine (Israel).

and anti-semitism has been around the Islamic would for MUCH longer then Israel's existence.

There's plenty of Islamaphobia in America. Does that mean America is trying to destroy the muslim world because they're muslims?

Do you really think the Zionist movement to take over Palestine had nothing to do with it?

Hatred like that can't be maintained by memory alone. Hatred doesn't come from nowhere. It has to come from somewhere. It has to have some sort of sympathetic basis even if it is exagerated out of all proportions.

[Ithekro]

Every blame has a counter blame. Every action has an exaggration action in responce to it.

I did finally see a relatively good map of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. I'd assumed they were just greater and greater penetrations beyond the Green Line, but what do I see instead? A line of settlements along the Jordan River. A way of cutting off supplies from Jordan to Palestine?

Even in my old Mock UN debate we had considered giving the Palestinians the West Bank, but with a line extending from the Green Line inwards as a neutral zone to allow Israeli force to keep terrorists back until trust was built up, then the lands of the neutral zone would slowly be integrated back into Palestine. However we acknowledged that the Gaza Strip was more trouble than it was worth and suggested all Palestinians be moved to the West Bank, expelled or assimulated into Israel.

[bladeofdarkness]

an another matter that is completely connected to this discussion.

Erdogan says misquoted on warships
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...120259,00.html
Turkish PM's office softens threat of military clash at sea, says country 'won't send vessel to Mediterranean Sea as long as Israel avoids intervening in freedom of movement in international waters'

"so why did he make such a big deal about sending the Turkish navy to the Mediterranean sea before ?" you might ask.
the answer, is completely connected to what I've been trying to tell you for a while now.

everybody in the middle east hates Israel.
ergo, if you want to make yourself POPULAR in the middle east, you take an anti-israeli position.
you don't have to actually DO anything, you just have to ACT like you do.

in the last week or so, Erdugan also said two OTHER things.
1)that Turkey is BANNING ALL TRADE WITH ISRAEL - only to later declare that this does NOT apply to private businesses trade (which is the only kind left at this point).
2)that Erdugan himself will visit Gaza in the coming weeks. - only to later say he would visit through the Raffah crossing by Egypt (instead of sailing) and later cancelled even THAT promise.

it DOESN'T MATTER what you actually DO, so long as the papers print your WORDS of hostility against Israel.

[DonQuigleone]

Historically speaking, the Arabs viewed Jews with a measure of contempt IE these people are a bit foolish to not embrace Islam. Much like, in fact, the contempt that British people might have felt for Irish people, or that wealthy people feel for the poor.

But the Islamic world does not have the anti semitism that manifests itself in ethnic and racial hatred, that was seen throughout Europe since time immemorial, after all the Jews "killed" Jesus, and hunted children for their blood.

In fact, in terms of religious tolerance, the muslim world was, while imperfect (all your statements are correct, except perhaps for widespread pogroms), they still allowed Christians and Jews to practice their religion openly, never expelled them, did not require them to follow muslim laws, and also exempted them from military service. A far cry from the regimes of Europe where a muslim would get burned at the stake.

The evidence can be seen that in the middle east there are many non muslim communities that have been there for millenia, the coptics of egypt(10% of egypts population), zoroastrians of Iran, Christians of Lebanon and Jewish communities spread throughout, who only recently had to emigrate to Israel due to the rise in Anti-semitism following it's founding. Is it a model of liberal tolerance? By no means, muslims were always in charge after all, with little real power held by non-muslims. But when you compare it to Europe, you'll find in Europe no comparitevely ancient Muslim communities, the Muslims of Andalucia and Sicily have long since been forcibly converted or expelled. And even today our "liberal" countries are going crazy when we have muslims at 5% of the population, though you could argue that's as much an ethnic and socioeconomic conflict.

Anti-semetism is a recent phenomena, largely driven by hatred of the Israeli state being combined with hatred of the Israeli people, and of course, Jews, the people Israel "claims" to represent.

I'm not saying the Arabs are blameless, far from it, but Israel has done a lot to draw the attention and hatred of Arabs. You can't keep doing what Israel has been doing for so long without expecting any consequences or backlash.

If Israel had been established as a binational state with equal rights for the Arabic AND Jewish population, we wouldn't be having this problem. Instead Israel has systematically expelled and cleansed Arabs from their section of the Levant, and I bet they won't stop until they have the entirety of the West Bank and Gaza free of the "inconvenient" Palestinians.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

an another matter that is completely connected to this discussion.

You mind making the connection there? Or is this just a completely seperate point altogether? If it is then I have nothing to add to that.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

"so why did he make such a big deal about sending the Turkish navy to the Mediterranean sea before ?" you might ask.
the answer, is completely connected to what I've been trying to tell you for a while now.

everybody in the middle east hates Israel.
ergo, if you want to make yourself POPULAR in the middle east, you take an anti-israeli position.
you don't have to actually DO anything, you just have to ACT like you do.

in the last week or so, Erdugan also said two OTHER things.
1)that Turkey is BANNING ALL TRADE WITH ISRAEL - only to later declare that this does NOT apply to private businesses trade (which is the only kind left at this point).
2)that Erdugan himself will visit Gaza in the coming weeks. - only to later say he would visit through the Raffah crossing by Egypt (instead of sailing) and later cancelled even THAT promise.

it DOESN'T MATTER what you actually DO, so long as the papers print your WORDS of hostility against Israel.

That's nonsense, Turkey doesn't hate Israel, Turkey has been Israel's only ally in the middle east for decades. Turkish people are a bit miffed towards their aggresive behaviour towards other peoples in the region...

I think Turkey is simply trying to tell Israel that they can't do whatever they want, and that they can't keep pushing things without them doing anything. Turkey wants respect from Israel. It viewed the refusal of Israel to apologize as a sign of disrespect. Turkey has also been displeased with Israel's behaviour regarding it's mining of eastern mediterranean gas illegally.

Israel has stepped on a lot of country's toes. Even my own country, Ireland, has beef with Israel when Israel used forged Irish passports for their Mossad agents. Israel has been isolating itself from almost every friend it has. All it has left now is the USA.

[Ithekro]

Considering hte topic started based on the Turks saying they were going to escort ships through the Israeli blockade of Gaza...that's sort of where the connections start right now.

[Haak]

So yeah, it is a completely seperate point then...

It's just that the "the answer, is completely connected to what I've been trying to tell you for a while now" bit threw me off.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

That's nonsense, Turkey doesn't hate Israel, Turkey has been Israel's only ally in the middle east for decades. Turkish people are a bit miffed towards their aggresive behaviour towards other peoples in the region...

Erdugan is trying to position himself and Turkey as the dominant power in the middle east.
problem is, Turks aren't Arabs.
so how do you score popularity points with the Arabs ?

Originally Posted by Haak

So yeah, it is a completely seperate point then...
.

its not a separate point, its exactly what I've been trying to tell you.
Arab (or in this case Turkish) leaders trying trying to rally people behind them by bashing on the Jews.

[Ithekro]

Basically a bid for popularity in the region...even if they don't really mean it or back it up.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

its not a separate point, its exactly what I've been trying to tell you.
Arab (or in this case Turkish) leaders trying trying to rally people behind them by bashing on the Jews.

No. It isn't.

The discussion was about whether the muslim/arab hatred towards Israel was baseless. How does the fact that muslim leaders trying to gain popularity by bashing Israel prove that muslim hatred towards Israel is baseless?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Haak

No. It isn't.

The discussion was about whether the muslim/arab hatred towards Israel was baseless. How does this connect?

i told you have Muslim/Arab leaders would attempt to gain popularity and divert attention away from internal matters with anti Israeli retorics.
which is the SOURCE of so much hate against Israel/Jews.

this is exactly what's going on with Turkey right now.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

iwhich is the SOURCE of so much hate against Israel/Jews.

And I made a point about why that's so effective. Are we seriously arguing about what we were arguing about, now?