Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[Dawnbringerz]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Effectively, when you strip away all the elegant trapping and artifice attached to it, Madoka wished for more wishes. The Genius of the Lamp was smart enough to preclude that, but Inky either messed up in not doing so - or he didn't have the option.

Not exactly.

Madoka did make 1 wish, no more.

The effect of the wish is very simple: She split herself into a countless copies, then each copy go to each Magical Girl in the past, present, and future when they are about to turn into witch, absorb the curse, then let the girls disappear peacefully. This is the same for herself that one of her copy came to her witch self and erasing her, thus creating a paradox, causing her to cease to exist.

Everything else that happens such as people getting revived (there are no witch to kill them in the first place), or the appearance of Magical Beasts (negative energy that is released from human takes up a form) are just side effect from the wish.

[Archon_Wing]

Ah, finished.

11 was a bit disappointing. Homura had prepared a good store of weapons but we really didn't get to see much of it. The part with Madoka's mom was a bit sloppy IMO. Sure, I understand she has faith in her daugher, but STILL. This is hard to believe even if I believe aliens are using magical energy from little girls.

Nevertheless Madoka and Homura had pretty good interactions throughout this episode. I like the parallels of Madoka lying to her mother, and Madoka realizing Homura is lying to her. Homura's just a crappy liar.

Anyhow Madoka's had enough of Kyubey'd LSD and decides to act. She has that really determined look on her face, like something she'd do that she'd never regret. But would this all be a troll or what? Homura's already given up, and they've already lost. This is unwinnable, yikes.

Episode 11: 8/10

Well, that was spectacular. Why does every show I like devolve into some corny talk about love and friendship? The thing that comes together is that this is a magical girl show after all, and for all the deconstructing it does, friendship and hope still has meaning. After all, despair is frequently balanced out with hope, is it not?

Anyhow, Madoka decides to become Lain, and watch over all off humanity, along with ceiling cat. Nice touch with the ribbon; this is a very well timed shout out to Nanoha and one of the best scenes ever of that series.

Our heroes lost the battle. It wasn't even winnable in the first place since day one, and thus were subject to the cruelty of the world. But sometimes that small glimmer of hope, collected from everyone might just temporarily shed a little light on an ocean of despair. Hell, even the cynic like me smiles when he sees something like Clannad: After Story , and that show was cheesy as hell too. But who the fuck cares? Basically, an escape of reality is sometimes needed from time to time. It's easy to despair, but only one PM was brave enough to ben able to live with it.

Ending scene was lovely. The lone warrior fights, but she's never alone. But that's just me. Overall, it's rather anticlimactic in terms of plot, but at least it satisfies on the emotional level. Most of them were saved, but at a very large cost of which we may never know the complete effects of.

They lost. Not everyone could be saved. There may be no witches, but curses still are around. But they didn't despair into witches and many others lived to fight another day. That's all that counts.

Episode 12: 10/10
I'll tentatively give the entire show a 10, as it was an amazing ride, despite the LSD and some plot conveniences. Only time will tell if this sticks.

[kaigan]

Originally Posted by Decagon

I can see why they probably delayed due to sensitivity over the earthquake.

Homura's been planning a lot... lol.

a possible reference to the current japanese situation is the people were moved in evacuation centers due the raging storm (supercell in pm wiki) caused by WN. the japanese seem to be sensitive to the parallelism with the real world.

Originally Posted by Lumine

Madoka is Jesus no wonder why they aired it today

how nice that the staff were observing the christian holiday. intentional or not, it appeals to me well. the impact would never be as great as this very day. and to add, if madoka is jesus, i will assume homura to be john the baptist or peter. both seemed to have a very close relation with jesus. john - homu of the desert (wasteland) paving the way for the messiah (increasing mado's potential); peter - homu inheriting the keys of heaven (ribbon and bow)

[AvatarST]

I didn't really understand why Sayaka went and essentially killed herself. According to the subs Mami said that she was "led astray by her denial of change", and Kyoko complains that she was "throwing it all away for the sake of that guy". But what does killing herself have to do with her wish being realized? And there was that scene with Madoka and her talking about how that future would disappear...

Can anyone try and explain it? That bit confused me.

[Used Can]

Hmm... it's hard to say. I really liked ep11, due to Homura's amazing battle against to Walpurgisnacht. In fact, I think it was, by far, the best battle in the entire series. Not to mention the great visuals and animation; they were top quality. I think it's the episode I've liked the best, after ep10.

However, ep12... I'm no fan of Deus ex Machina endings, even if in this series it was foreshadowed - in fact, clearly stated by QB. Madoka changing everything simply because of attaining God status felt very, very cheap for me. In the end, though, she didn't create a perfect world, and in fact, it's really hard to call this a happy end, or even a bitter-sweet end, since it seems Homura will be fighting forever and, not much really changed. MS are still born and they still go through struggles and die, the only difference being they no longer turn into witches, because they've been replaced by those white demons. So, the MS die instantly now.

But, yeah, the "solution" felt far too convenient to me. It was pulled off with nice visuals and some really heart-warming moments, but I still couldn't take the bad taste from my mouth.

Anyway, the series, in general, get a 10/10 from me, the ending itself, though... I don't really want to rate it, but I guess saying I didn't like it will suffice.

[revive4563]

After all, this show was typical & nice Sekai-kei series. though it was well written than I thought.
I recommend Revolutionary Girl Utena (1997) if you like this. Utena is mother of Madoka.

[Guardian Enzo]

A little blog post on the ending and the series as a whole:

In brief, I'm not going to claim to understand all of it - I don't have a pipeline to Gen Urobuchi's psyche and it seems to me that he left a lot of things intentionally opaque. I'm fascinated that, at long last, Shinbo has been upstaged. Up till now a Shinbo series has always been about Shinbo - about his skewed vision and visual dexterity and odd sensibility. But while he did have his impact, I don't think there's any question this was Gen-san's series. I can imagine Madoka Magica with another director - I can't imagine it with another writer.

Was it coincidence this was delayed till Easter weekend? Who knows. Even I would admit the messiah aspects of Madoka's end are inescapable - taking everyone's sins unto herself to give them salvation, surrendering her material form as a sacrifice for their souls. In the end, for all the Faust and Higurashi and Monkey's Paw comparisons, was this more King James than anything else?

Finally, in the end I'm left with the inescapable feeling that all along, Homura was the main character - she just didn't get her name in the title.

[eplipswich]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

I didn't really understand why Sayaka went and essentially killed herself. According to the subs Mami said that she was "led astray by her denial of change", and Kyoko complains that she was "throwing it all away for the sake of that guy". But what does killing herself have to do with her wish being realized? And there was that scene with Madoka and her talking about how that future would disappear...

Can anyone try and explain it? That bit confused me.

If I myself understand correctly, Sayaka was actually already doomed to die, because she already turned into a witch per se as Madoka's wish was granted. So when Madoka took over as "God", she fades away instead of being turned into a witch.

I think what Madoka means by that future will disappear is that Sayaka's future will disappear. And what Madoka means by erase is having to erase her.

As for "throwing it all away", it means that Sayaka became Puella Magi just for the sake of that guy.

Don't forget that Sayaka's original wish was to have that guy's hand healed just so he can play violin again. With that fulfilled, and that it was inevitable that she has to disappear, she leaves with somewhat mixed feelings actually.

[Dawnbringerz]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

I didn't really understand why Sayaka went and essentially killed herself. According to the subs Mami said that she was "led astray by her denial of change", and Kyoko complains that she was "throwing it all away for the sake of that guy". But what does killing herself have to do with her wish being realized? And there was that scene with Madoka and her talking about how that future would disappear...

Can anyone try and explain it? That bit confused me.

She loves Kamijou and wants to have his hand healed so she became a Magical Girl, but couldn't get over her complex of being a zombie, so she fought Magical Beasts that came to interrupt Kamijou's concert until she ran out of gas, and disappear, leaving Kamijou in Hitomi's hand.

[Reckoner]

Though people may have qualms with how the show ended I do feel that Madoka Magica has proven that you can write a nice little story with complex details in 1 cour.

While 2 cour shows allow for better maneuverability, it doesn't fix shitty wirting. With a good writer, 1 cour can work fine.

[Attoney]

So let me get this straight.
1. Madoka wishes that all witches be destroyed at the moment they were born in the past and future
2. All magical girls who had been turned into witches now disappear instead when they soul gem is completely corrupted
3. Madoka then kills the witch!Madoka, which as a result, eliminated her existence from the universe.
4. All magical girls who had been killed by wictches are now back alive, since witches never existed in the first place because of Madoka's wish
5. The despair(curse, evil, darkness, whatever) that witches embodied now takes form in a weird white monster.

In that context, the ending makes sense. However, I'm not quite buying that the bad karma Madoka gather throughout different timelines makes her more powerful. It seems to me like a quickly thought up excuse to create the ending. Therefore, I give these 2 episodes 9/10.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

In brief, I'm not going to claim to understand all of it - I don't have a pipeline to Gen Urobuchi's psyche and it seems to me that he left a lot of things intentionally opaque. I'm fascinated that, at long last, Shinbo has been upstaged. Up till now a Shinbo series has always been about Shinbo - about his skewed vision and visual dexterity and odd sensibility. But while he did have his impact, I don't think there's any question this was Gen-san's series. I can imagine Madoka Magica with another director - I can't imagine it with another writer.

agreed. he's the main creator of madoka after all.

[Riga92]

Originally Posted by Attoney

So let me get this straight.
1. Madoka wishes that all witches be destroyed at the moment they were born in the past and future
2. All magical girls who had been turned into witches now disappear instead when they soul gem is completely corrupted
3. Madoka then kills the witch!Madoka, which as a result, eliminated her existence from the universe.
4. All magical girls who had been killed by wictches are now back alive, since witches never existed in the first place because of Madoka's wish
5. The despair(curse, evil, darkness, whatever) that witches embodied now takes form in a weird white monster.

In that context, the ending makes sense. However, I'm not quite buying that the bad karma Madoka gather throughout different timelines makes her more powerful. It seems to me like a quickly thought up excuse to create the ending. Therefore, I give these 2 episodes 9/10.

Yea its kinda hard to swallow the fact that Madoka somehow gained more power within each timeline. I believe it, since to me Madoka did become stronger the more timelines Homura went through. And since its Kyubey is the one who theorized about this, I'm willing to believe him, since he technically hasn't lied throughout the series, just omits important information

[Lumine]

I admit I lost it when Madoka started mercy killing Maho shoujos across time...

from /a/

Puella Magi Madoka Magicka Update V.12
Added: New Enemy - Demon Monk
Removed NPC - Kaname Madoka
Removed NPC - Sayaka Miki

Magical Girls have been updated:
Magical Girls who deplete their mana reserve no longer become witches.
Magical Girls who deplete their mana reserve lose their Soul Gem and become normal again.
Magical Girls can now purify their Soul Gems using Grief Shards dropped by new enemy "Demon Monk"

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Riga92

Yea its kinda hard to swallow the fact that Madoka somehow gained more power within each timeline. I believe it, since to me Madoka did become stronger the more timelines Homura went through. And since its Kyubey is the one who theorized about this, I'm willing to believe him, since he technically hasn't lied throughout the series, just omits important information

Everytime Homura created a new timeline, it was centered around Madoka. So she technically all the pre-Madoka timelines into one single line where at the end, two outcomes can occur (Madoka becomes a MG or not, and the latter will keep looping until she becomes one).

With so many timelines concentrated on her, no wonder she is so powerful - all the roads of time lead to Madoka.

[ImperialX]

Alright, compiled all the questions I've seen in this thread and on /a/ and trying to answer them with another one of my trademark blog posts.

http://imperialx.wordpress.com/2011/...xplain-itself/

Hopefully this will clear things up for many of you. ^^

[Lord of Fire]

Why do so many complain about the ending? It's not like we couldn't have seen this coming. I think too many people are in utter denial that it didn't play out like they wanted to ('true' bad ending). Ironically, most of which are probably the same people who wanted Mami to be revived after episode 3.

Anyway, we knew Homura couldn't face WN on her own, as her magic power was too weak (same reason she failed in every other timeline). I also expected that Homura herself was pretty much the key to the solution. By reliving time over and over, she (unknowingly) made Madoka's potential grow, to the point where she would become the most destructive Witch ever if she were to become a Magical Girl. However, Kyubey foreshadowed long ago (and many times after that) that Madoka could also become a goddess, who could change the laws of nature around her. And as it turns out, he was right, it;'s just that no one wanted to believe him (though that's understandable, considering how we've grown to see him as the ultimate evil.

Homura's problem was that she had too much of a one-track mind: protect Madoka, at any cost, or travel to another world/time to redo what she did wrong. Problem is, she didn't know how and while she probably hoped to find the answer among the many timelines she's been through, she failed time and again, due to the fact that she only focused on saving Madoka, and didn't really think that the others might prove to be of sue to her as well.

However, her mistake also provided the final piece to the puzzle, though she never became aware of it. It was quite clear that Madoka became stronger as a Magical Girl, while becoming weaker as a human being (personality-wise). The first timeline in episode 10 showed her as a strong, independent girl and we gradually see that she becomes increasingly worried and distressed, to the point where she becomes quite insecure in the final timeline. As Kyubey explained, Madoka took on everyone's burden and that in its turn increased Madoka's magic potential, to the point where she could become a goddess if she were to turn into a Magical Girl. What we didn't know back then is that this was actually true, though it would become the side-effect of her wish and that it would mean she'd have to sacrifice herself for the good of the universe.

Tl;DR: Madoka's sacrifice was unavoidable. Homura could have redone her quest endless times, but it would only have postponed the inevitable, and neither she or Madoka might have never learned what had to be done.

Originally Posted by Used Can

However, ep12... I'm no fan of Deus ex Machina endings, even if in this series it was foreshadowed - in fact, clearly stated by QB. Madoka changing everything simply because of attaining God status felt very, very cheap for me.

If it's foreshadowed (as it was told by Kyubey a dozen times), it's not a Deus Ex Machina. Madoka becoming a goddess was within reasonable expectation, but many people just didn't believe that would actually happen. Heck, everything Kyubey said pretty much came true: Madoka did become a Witch when she took on everyone's burden, but in return, her wish turned her into a goddess that could destroy the Witch and rewrite nature itself.

IMO, this is the only possible ending we could have expected and any other ending would NOT have sufficed, if Urobuchi was indeed aiming for a bittersweet ending. you could argue that this was more sweet than bitter, but I think it fits within my realm of expectations.

[MrTerrorist]

Wait.... Cleopatra, Joan of Arc, Queen Himiko and Anne Frank were Magical girls!?
Can somebody explain this to me? I'm confused.

[Attoney]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Wait.... Cleopatra, Joan of Arc, Queen Himiko and Anne Frank were Magical girls!?
Can somebody explain this to me? I'm confused.

Of course they were, didn't you learn that from your history classes?

[FlavorOfLife]

Very good episodes. 2nd half of ep 12 could have some pacing issues but that is a minor matter. Somethings still need to be puzzled out especially Sayaka's part but leaving it intentionally vague is a good move tocontinue the series profile after it ended