Relationships In The MSLN Series [SERIOUS DISCUSSION ONLY]

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

It's like saying there are no transgendered people in nanoha because we haven't seen any. Frankly, this is true for nanoha until proven otherwise and has absolutely nothing to do with our expectations and everything to do with them wanting us to expect things. Then it is the art of interpretation I mentioned.

No, you're wrong, in that case we should affirm that it would be hard to see a transgendered character because there are few of them in the context you take as a reference (Japanese society, Japanese society projected to the future, other animes, etc).

Originally Posted by itanshi1

No, haru, nanoha is not us. We are not nanoha. they do not live by our rules no matter how similarly some things seem.

Their universe is based in ours, so most aspects are the same.

Originally Posted by itanshi1

It is meaningless to point out similarities and assume more apply. they do not apply because the show did not apply them! we are the ones applying them, but we are not the writers!

You can't guarantee that the show didn't apply them, since what isn't part of the universe is uncertain. There is a chance that every detail that isn't told about their universe doesn't coincide with our, but the odds are the lowest.

[itanshi1]

Originally Posted by BPHaru

Their universe is based in ours, so most aspects are the same.

You can't guarantee that the show didn't apply them, since what isn't part of the universe is uncertain. There is a chance that every detail that isn't told about their universe doesn't coincide with our, but the odds are the lowest.

Don't apply odds to this, please. I'm not gambling on this. Stats are supposed to show us data. If you have to bet on odds based on probability shown by these stats, then you are merely reading numbers you like or dislike using data that is not applied in the world of nanoha. Please, do your statistic evaluation based on data garnered from nanoha alone.

Nanoha is based on life? Yes, but is it life? Is it our existence? No. Then we cannot know what is that isn't shown to us until it is shown to us. So what if its impossible to mimic our life in a story. That's a bad argument. The story still gives us information for us to use without any need for other unrelated avenues of data collection.

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

Don't apply odds to this, please. I'm not gambling on this.

The whole time this has been about applying odds. All fictional universes have blank spaces, and are those blank spaces filled with uncertainly what have alternatives and odds associated.

Originally Posted by itanshi1

If you have to bet on odds based on probability shown by these stats, then you are merely reading numbers you like or dislike using data that is not applied in the world of nanoha.

The data was applied at the moment you estimate the unknown using a similar sample to extrapolate the data. Yes, this is barely reading numbers, the work behind that is what is a subject of discussion.

Originally Posted by itanshi1

Please, do your statistic evaluation based on data garnered from nanoha alone.

Even our opinions are external elements. If you don't want to include influences from our reality to this fictional universe, in first place there wouldn't be possibility of having a discussion, since all is already stated and we can add anything else than what is said. In this case the author should have to clarify every little detail of the universe, especially those that can be deduced from ours.

Originally Posted by itanshi1

Nanoha is based on life? Yes, but is it life? Is it our existence? No.

It's based in Japanese life to be more exact. That's an option to estimate the lives of the people in that universe.

Originally Posted by itanshi1

Then we cannot know what is that isn't shown to us until it is shown to us.

We can make an estimation and know it with an error margin.

Originally Posted by itanshi1

The story still gives us information for us to use without any need for other unrelated avenues of data collection.

We have need of external information and our own experiences in life because it's impossible for the author to define every little detail of the universe, that is based in ours. Explaining everything would be redundant and boring.

[itanshi1]

Originally Posted by BPHaru

The whole time this has been about applying odds. All fictional universes have blank spaces, and are those blank spaces filled with uncertainly what have alternatives and odds associated.

But applying odds is not debating legitimacy of an argument. it is saying 'this is the most likely explanation' which means I reply, "ok, maybe, but we don't know anything yet since they have not given us enough data and they are not likely to do so'

Even our opinions are external elements. If you don't want to include influences from our reality to this fictional universe, in first place there wouldn't be possibility of having a discussion, since all is already stated and we can add anything else than what is said. In this case the author should have to clarify every little detail of the universe, especially those that can be deduced from ours.

Yes there is,

It's based in Japanese life to be more exact. That's an option to estimate the lives of the people in that universe.

use the data in the show. I'll just label your argument, "The bread must be for a sandwich since in real life bread is used for sandwiches"

[Lexich]

Well, seems I did a little splash. Not that I wanted to.
So I'll now answer some questions.
About pessimism. NanoFate are couple in my heart, but until canon explicitly confirms it, I can't say it as "absolute truth". They are evidently very close, they may even have sex, but until THEM (authors cruellest to the audience since Yazawa Ai) tell us so, NxF are not canonical couple, unfortunately. (So are all the other pairings too, Crono/Amy excuded)
Which brings me to another offshoot of that theory: "They are best friends now, but was lovers then, and will be again after retirement." Seeing how Nanoha and Fate are bound to spend large quantities of time far from each other, living different dreams, they decided to set back on romantic development, only to resume it after they are off the active service. It would explain repeated canonic statements "they are just friends", them not kissing or mentioning their relationship as lovers publicly and even privately, if I'm to believe Sound Stages. And before you ask: yes, that giant bed was for sex.
P.S. I'm eagerly waiting for more ViVid chapters, seeing how not-fighting Nanoha can give authors more chances to give us NxF service proof. Watching Fate cook for Nanoha and Vivio made me squee like a little girl.

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

But applying odds is not debating legitimacy of an argument. it is saying 'this is the most likely explanation' which means I reply, "ok, maybe, but we don't know anything yet since they have not given us enough data and they are not likely to do so'

There is no legitimacy of arguments in a open scenario as long as they don't contradict canon. The more we can do is evaluate what is more likely to happen.

Originally Posted by itanshi1

use the data in the show. I'll just label your argument, "The bread must be for a sandwich since in real life bread is used for sandwiches" .

There is only data for some of the elements relevant to the plot, most things are taken from our universe so we can take them as a reference.
Your example is wrong too. In that case you examine the kind of bread, and analyze if an actual kind of bread from Japanese society is similar to that, and if you can project it to a Japan in a more moder world. If that works then you should estimate the odds of how often that kind of bread is used for sandwiches, and calculate the error in the same and in the projection.

[itanshi1]

I'm happy for such an evaluation, but it only befits our biased intentions as yuri fans.

Originally Posted by BPHaru

There is no legitimacy of arguments in a open scenario as long as they don't contradict canon. The more we can do is evaluate what is more likely to happen.

"The absence of evidence is not a disproof" what is this the anti evolution argument? This is a fallacy, first of all, since it also can be read as "the absence of evidence is not proof"

Go ahead and add more content, but that content is not canon.

Your example is wrong too. In that case you examine the kind of bread, and analyze if an actual kind of bread from Japanese society is similar to that, and if you can project it to a Japan in a more moder world. If that works then you should estimate the odds of how often that kind of bread is used for sandwiches, and calculate the error in the same and in the projection.

But you can still be wrong. Nanoha may be a closet furry

no no no, we don't even know if they have that kind of bread! we don't know! so you cannot possibly know unless they tell us. You again are trying to merge two worlds in your assessments. Don't do that. Use the data from nanoha alone.

If nanoha behaved like our life, there would not be so many female leads, they would not be hired on so easily, they would not be promoted so quickly. Why am I forced to argue that nanoha is not real life and should not be assumed to behave like real life does? Our life is only the canvas they use. There is no admission that they intend everything going on in our world right now is also canonical with nanoha. Iraq war? Obama? they might not have ever been born in nanoha! We don't know.

Sleep, 4 am, have trip tomorrow, will make same arguments i just made once again with you later.

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Lexich

"They are best friends now, but was lovers then, and will be again after retirement." Seeing how Nanoha and Fate are bound to spend large quantities of time far from each other, living different dreams, they decided to set back on romantic development, only to resume it after they are off the active service.

I don´t see that likely going to happen, since they see closer than ever now in the period that you tag as "no lovers", and they didn't have real reasons to break up since even if they don't see each other as often as they used to, they keep in contact as often as a father working away would like, and Fate is in home as often as she can.

Originally Posted by Lexich

It would explain repeated canonic statements "they are just friends",

I'm 100% certain that that's not a canonic statement, because in all the canon material Nanoha and Fate's romantic relationship has never been denied, and that quote would do the job. What has been said is "that's Fate's friend", "they're best friends", or things like that, but never "just friends".

Originally Posted by Lexich

them not kissing or mentioning their relationship as lovers publicly and even privately

Most couples don't even kiss in public. Especially if they aren't open about their relationship, which may be an option. In private you can be sure that they do it ^^

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo

[Nya~n]

Nanoha and fate's so-called "romantic" relationship has never been confirmed. Period. The only thing there is are cocktease to keep you nanofate people happy.

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Nya~n

Nanoha and fate's so-called "romantic" relationship has never been confirmed. Period. The only thing there is are cocktease to keep you nanofate people happy.

It's not confirmed if you only consider the usual complementary material as canon, but it's pretty much implied and assumed by most fans.
And yes, nanofate people are happy ^^

Originally Posted by itanshi1

Ino no no, we don't even know if they have that kind of bread! we don't know! so you cannot possibly know unless they tell us. You again are trying to merge two worlds in your assessments. Don't do that. Use the data from nanoha alone.

No, considering that the only data from the nanoha series was the bread by itself, we should take our actual knowledge and say "they, that's a sandwich bread!" so it's likely they are going to make a sandwich. If the pan wasn't a plot device and they writer just forget it and never uses it again, then the bread will be a sandwich bread for the public.

Originally Posted by itanshi1

If nanoha behaved like our life, there would not be so many female leads, they would not be hired on so easily, they would not be promoted so quickly. Why am I forced to argue that nanoha is not real life and should not be assumed to behave like real life does? Our life is only the canvas they use. There is no admission that they intend everything going on in our world right now is also canonical with nanoha. Iraq war? Obama? they might not have ever been born in nanoha! We don't know.

You're generalizing there. You put a character in a situation and evaluate their possible course of action through how other similar people have reacted.
Also, they took our universe as a reference, but they are in another planet now. Although most rules from our universe and their old planed and society applies.

[Keroko]

*munches popcorn* You know, this is actually a lot more fun from the sidelines.

Anyway I'll just say this to the whole sex ordeal: A common used argument to the "if they really are a couple, why haven't they said so or kissed yet?" is "Couples don't need to kiss or confirm their love to be in a relationship"

Following that logic, why would they need to have sex?

[Lexich]

I'm actually quite torn on matter of canonicity of NanoFate. Were it just unconfirmed, but with no more romantic contenders (Yuuno), I'd were the first one to declare them wife and wife. Unfortunately, he exist, and stated by creators to be "best friend" of Nanoha, and Fate stated to be the same. Onscreen hints (subtext) is a wonderful thing, and much more of it is in favor of NxF than say, NxY. But subtext is not enough in such situation. One string of text in relationships graph holds the same value as a full anime season of subtext. Thus, I can not exactly call them lovers, yet. As much as I would want to. And so, I invent theories to bridge my perception and "nothing confirmed" state of official materials.

P.S. For situations when yuri couple is not confirmed (subtext), but there are no other (male) contenders for hearts of participants, I more then happily acknowledge them as canon. Examples include "girls with guns trilogy", ROD, Bubblegum Crisis OVA, Hidamari Sketch, and lots of other series.

P.P.S. About sex: while couples don't need to show their affection publicly by kissing to be couples, fact that they don't means just that. They don't show it in public. On their bed they may do it all night, given no evidence to the contrary. To be fair though, they don't need to be lovers to have sex in their private time. Or they may not have sex at all. It depends on your personal point of view. Mine is that they do.

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Lexich

Unfortunately, he exist, and stated by creators to be "best friend" of Nanoha, and Fate stated to be the same. Onscreen hints (subtext) is a wonderful thing, and much more of it is in favor of NxF than say, NxY. But subtext is not enough in such situation. One string of text in relationships graph holds the same value as a full anime season of subtext. Thus, I can not exactly call them lovers, yet. As much as I would want to. And so, I invent theories to bridge my perception and "nothing confirmed" state of official materials.

Hi there again. May I ask if you read my previous reply? Because you still seem to have problems with how their relationships are established. Particularly I don't know where the Yuuno thing comes from, that could have been a valid point in A's or when Strikers was starting, but now he's out of the series and was negated as a romantic interest pretty much every time before we lost contact with him and Arf. They used to have the same function supporting Nanoha and Fate's family, but it seems like not even Vivio that visited the library meets them so much now either.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Anyway I'll just say this to the whole sex ordeal: A common used argument to the "if they really are a couple, why haven't they said so or kissed yet?" is "Couples don't need to kiss or confirm their love to be in a relationship"

Following that logic, why would they need to have sex?

*Applauses
This all depends of exactly what we consider a couple, or how much they care about the physical aspect.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo

[Keroko]

Y'know, seeing how Vivid is only on its second chapter, and Force hasn't even seen its first chapter, don't you think declaring Yuuno as 'written out' is a bit premature?

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Y'know, seeing how Vivid is only on its second chapter, and Force hasn't even seen its first chapter, don't you think declaring Yuuno as 'written out' is a bit premature?

He and Arf lost their plot relevance after A's to give place to many new characters. Seeing that they were closer to Vivio probably they can make a cameo during a chapter of Vivid to show us that they are still there and supporting our favorite family and the relationship of our heroines, but I think the odds of seeing them in Force are very low.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo

[Keroko]

Force has a ruin loving main hero. Plot relevance for our local archaeologist right there.

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Force has a ruin loving main hero. Plot relevance for our local archaeologist right there.

I doubt the writer would relate him to Yuuno using his profession, seeing how he intentionally wrote him off. If Touma needs a sensei probably they would go for a new character, but I don't think that this is place to discuss that, and so far we don't know much of Force either.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo

[Fate21]

Seeing Nanoha and Fate in Vivid, make me think that they really are canon couple. Before, when i watched StrikerS i still think that they're just a best friends. Or is that just a service?

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Fate21

Seeing Nanoha and Fate in Vivid, make me think that they really are canon couple. Before, when i watched StrikerS i still think that they're just a best friends. Or is that just a service?

Everything that appeals to the fans is fanservice, so technically most elements of this series can be considered that, but that doesn't mean that you don't have to take them seriously. Besides, since the second half of Strikers they have been using their relationship for plot purposes, and now forming a family with Vivio, as we can see better in the fourth season.
Their relationship has been always implied, but as time passes they are making more apparent what is assumed. If they keep this progression they can decide to state they relationship directly when the right time comes. Since it sells maybe they can do it for an important date like the release of the movie or of a potential new animated season that can keep focus in Vivio or in other characters.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo

[itanshi1]

I really think a lot of I argued went ignored. You also failed to understand the bread analogy.

It is not enough to say that because the world is similar to ours it is enough like ours for us to make estimations. This is the fallacy I've been trying to make you understand. Their world is not ours no matter what similarities exist. Similarities are not corollaries! You can not draw conclusions by estimations using unrelated data. Adding data based upon unrelated correlations is writing our own stories.

We only use unrelated data to facilitate technological applications in the tech thread or maybe the military thread, but we are merely rationalizing things for the sake of writers. Those people are wrong as well to use such rationalizations or estimations as you put it, but they do it for us writers. We come to conclusions based upon this unrelated data for our own purposes. This manipulation of data makes it a guess. It makes it an assumption and it makes it an opinion.

I believe we can have opinions on the series without this unrelated data.