[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Well, there's an interesting question. If Alan Rickman doesn't know he's in a movie and thinks Dumbledore is a real person, then can you say that "Alan Rickman killed Dumbledore"? Can truth bleed across layers like that?

Fact cannot, as it is objective. But since "truth" is something that varies from person to person, it can, so long as theyre willing to accept it.

[AuraTwilight]

Well, nobody said Kanon isn't in on the plot... or that Shannon doesn't have a "Kanon" identity in addition to actual Kanon. I never argued against Shkanon in general, only against Shannon = Kanon.

Way to completely dodge answering the question.

I don't remember this, sorry. If you give me the exact context (the lines), I could tell you what I think about it. Either way I don't think this is a big problem.

I'm not gonna go fetch theexact lines. It's when they're making their 19 steps before they have their gun duel.

I forgot. Was this referring to Kanon's death in EP1? If so, since I believe Kanon was killed much earlier than the crime, there is no contradiction in being unable to find his body.

Every time Kanon dies, Will says "Illusion to Illusion."

Sounds like a pretty ridiculous way to solve this puzzle (Shannon switches to "Kanon" mode, saves Battler, switches back to "Shannon" mode... yeah, very convenient trick she has there. Was she trying to trick the red she-doesn't-know-exists or something? And besides, even if Shannon exited the room as Kanon, it would still mean that "Shannon doesn't exist in the room"). But anyhow, do the reds pose a problem to Kanon (who is not Shannon) rescuing Battler?

Yes, they do. Only the one window, the one that's not in Jessica's room, is accessible. Kanon would've had to have magically warped to Shannon's room to leave out her window without using a door or phasing through a wall or something.

This is an interpretation of the Love Duel (I also consider it unsatisfactory - does she kill everyone because she can't decide who to be with? How is that related to the epitaph and the murders of unrelated people?). I can think of many such interpretations. This doesn't mean "regular Shkanon" solves the problem, it merely means it allows for an additional interpretation. To solve this problem, regular Shkanon needs to provide a convincing interpretation of the Love Duel, along with evidence.

If you can provide an interpretation besides regular Shkanon that can solve the problem, go for it.

BTW, I never said Yasu/Shkanon killed anyone, and I'm personally insistent that she did not and does not have it in her to do so. But that's not important.

I don't know Kanon's past, so who knows? Genji is furniture too. Doesn't mean Shkanongenji.

Genji only brings it up in...EP2, I believe, in fantasy scenes. Kanon brings it up pretty much every time he talks to someone. There's definitely an issue of scope here.

Good question. I'm not sure, and I don't think it's relevant, though. There are many reasons she'd need to, we don't know what went on between Shannon and Kanon. One possible reason is that "Kanon", after dying, turned into a "Shannon persona", but I don't like it too much.

Only Kanon can use his own name. Your theory doesn't allow Shannon to become Kanon after he dies, sorry.

Don't Knox's (or Dine's) rules disallow such disguises? I don't remember. Anyway, yes, they can be treated as different people. But I don't agree that the reds can discuss Kanon's body or conveniently claim that Kanon is dead while Shannon is alive. It's a much more ridiculous interpretation than what I claim. I have a hard time completely contradicting it with the red, simply because it's such a huge stretch. But others in the last two pages have done a good job.

Knox, and it says that disguises are disallowed only if they're not implied beforehand. Well, buddy, a lot of people came to the Shkanon idea, and were able to point to suspicious implications.

Yes it is, dammit!

No, it's not. I pulled something similar to Shkanon in real life when I was in Middle School, it's doable. You're only able to deny Regular Shkanon by relying on this necessary belief that the other characters are as perceptive as us readers; they're not.

What we're basically saying is not "Snape killed Dumbledore", but something closer to "Alan Rickman killed Dumbledore". Can this be a red? Maybe, but it's a very big stretch.

Ah, but Alan Rickman didn't kill Dumbledore because Alan Rickman did not kill Dumbledore's actor, and Snape kills Dumbledore even if there's no movie.

Finally, I would like to say that there is a difference between a logically, and a narratively plausible solution. Most of us consider Bern's solution in the end of EP7 to be ridiculous, narrative-wise, but it's not a *huge* logical stretch. People have done a good job of showing why regular Shkanon (I define this as any Shannon=Kanon theory that isn't a fictional Shkanon one too) is unlikely in this thread, even though they haven't completely proved it impossible.

No one has been able to demonstrate to me why regular Shkanon is ridiculous. Furthermore, no one has been able to show that EP7 Tea Party ISN'T ridiculous and logically unsound.

[witchfan]

Way to completely dodge answering the question.

How is it dodging the question? I gave several possible answers.

I'm not gonna go fetch theexact lines. It's when they're making their 19 steps before they have their gun duel.

I don't remember anything like that, so you'll need to fetch the lines if you want me to be able to answer your question.

Every time Kanon dies, Will says "Illusion to Illusion."

Maybe it's because he didn't actually die at that time, but a lot before that.

Yes, they do. Only the one window, the one that's not in Jessica's room, is accessible. Kanon would've had to have magically warped to Shannon's room to leave out her window without using a door or phasing through a wall or something.

I honestly found no problem with the reds. Maybe it's because I forgot some details, though. But if you think this is a very important point, maybe later I'll reread the scenes and write a full explanation.

If you can provide an interpretation besides regular Shkanon that can solve the problem, go for it.

BTW, I never said Yasu/Shkanon killed anyone, and I'm personally insistent that she did not and does not have it in her to do so. But that's not important.

Okay, here's a really, really contrived explanation: Shannon and Kanon were both insane folks who believed in magic, and had reason to believe they could not truly love someone without duelling to the death. The existence of Beatrice in that scene is in Shannon's imagination only, and with good reason. Is it the likely answer? No, but there's nothing to logically contradict it. The point is, the interpretation of the duel is not "solved" by Shkanon unless only Shkanon allows for an explanation that is, without doubt, correct. Can you prove your interpretation is not only irrefutable, but correct?

Only Kanon can use his own name. Your theory doesn't allow Shannon to become Kanon after he dies, sorry.

Really? There are many ways to interpret this red. Kanon isn't even his only name. But anyway, see above for a different explanation. I can think of any number of ridiculous reasons for it.

No, it's not. I pulled something similar to Shkanon in real life when I was in Middle School, it's doable. You're only able to deny Regular Shkanon by relying on this necessary belief that the other characters are as perceptive as us readers; they're not.

I suppose it's plausible if you assume the characters who were there in the flesh were not perceptive enough to realize (for years!) what we readers saw despite countless obstacles such as: unreliable narrative, incomplete narrative, and magic scenes. I don't.

Ah, but Alan Rickman didn't kill Dumbledore because Alan Rickman did not kill Dumbledore's actor, and Snape kills Dumbledore even if there's no movie.

Alan Rickman won't be able to kill Dumbledore even if he killed his actor (this was even discussed regarding Beatrice in EP7). But I'd rather you explain your point without analogies, because this is quite irrelevant already.

[TehChron]

It's amazing watching Aura smack you around, I gotta say.

[witchfan]

If you're saying something in my explanation makes no sense, come out with it.

[TehChron]

I suppose it's plausible if you assume the characters who were there in the flesh were not perceptive enough to realize (for years!) what we readers saw despite countless obstacles such as: unreliable narrative, incomplete narrative, and magic scenes. I don't.

The secret lies in this argument, for one.

Of course, thats just one of the obvious dead horses you're beating.

[witchfan]

(I can't contradict this person, so I'll claim he's beating a dead horse and that would prove me correct.)

You do a good job of pretending to know what you're talking about but not giving me a coherent argument. (Edit: read the sentence wrong).

[TehChron]

Look, it's one thing to think you're good at constructing an argument when you look for excuses to not acknowledge the counters used against you.

But that doesn't suddenly make you any more right. Besides, the one you picked a fight with was Aura, why should I deny him the pleasure?

[witchfan]

You're still talking about how wrong I am without explaining why. If you think my argument is wrong, get off your high horse and explain how. If you want to keep pretending you have an argument, don't let me stop you, but I'd rather not waste my breath in response. I'm not sure you even understand what this discussion is about.

Edit: I would like to say there is a difference between debating and picking a fight. The only person doing the latter here is you.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Whats the point of Kanon actually dying earlier though? In the first episode its never stated he died, in the second one he died inside Jessica's room, in the 4th one he was the 9th victim. The only one that has a remote possibility of actually happening is on EP3.

e- I mean you could make some twisted logic in EP2 that he died inside Jessica's room and his corpse was moved away so that Jessica wouldn't see before the actual episode came out but its stretching it a bit.

[TehChron]

Bahahahaha.

That's quite interesting. By the way, what's wrong with someone enjoying the Theatergoer's right to see a good show?

All worthwhile clashes need a fitting commentary, after all. I'm simply providing a play by play.

[witchfan]

Well, I mainly claim it is the case to combat the reds that say Kanon was killed. Since I claim he wasn't there on the island that day, well...

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by TehChron

Bahahahaha.

That's quite interesting. By the way, what's wrong with someone enjoying the Theatergoer's right to see a good show?

All worthwhile clashes need a fitting commentary, after all. I'm simply providing a play by play.

From what it seems, the lot of you are big babbys

[witchfan]

Originally Posted by TehChron

Bahahahaha.

That's quite interesting. By the way, what's wrong with someone enjoying the Theatergoer's right to see a good show?

All worthwhile clashes need a fitting commentary, after all. I'm simply providing a play by play.

Tell you what: you stay in your theatre seat and enjoy the purported show, while I debate with people rational and mature enough to understand an argument is expected of them when they openly claim someone is wrong. I have absolutely no problem with people like Aura or Cao Ni Ma who legitimately argue with me, but I do take issue with dolts like you.

[Jan-Poo]

Can someone make a summary of what this discussion is about? It was too long, I didn't read, and I'm lazy.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by witchfan

Tell you what: you stay in your theatre seat and enjoy the purported show, while I debate with people rational and mature enough to understand an argument is expected of them when they openly claim someone is wrong. I have absolutely no problem with people like Aura or Cao Ni Ma who legitimately argue with me, but I do take issue with dolts like you.

I never claimed you were wrong, simply that Aura was knocking you around senseless argumentatively.

If you want me to lower the curtain on you, then I have no reason to deny your request. When I say you're wrong, Im more than capable of backing it up. But until I do, I have no obligation to do anything other than enjoy the show.

[BoxQueen]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Whats the point of Kanon actually dying earlier though? In the first episode its never stated he died, in the second one he died inside Jessica's room, in the 4th one he was the 9th victim. The only one that has a remote possibility of actually happening is on EP3.

e- I mean you could make some twisted logic in EP2 that he died inside Jessica's room and his corpse was moved away so that Jessica wouldn't see before the actual episode came out but its stretching it a bit.

I guess that the purpose was to anniliated the persona earlier. But I find that EP 2 and 3 disproves my Shkanon theory, since Jessica loves Kanon and having alternate personality makes it difficult to love a person that you also know as a friend.

Also I'm bothered by the first murders in EP 3 but as Will said 'Illusion to Illusion', so my doubt remains on EP 2. Since I find it puzzling to resolve something like Jessica saw Kanon's death unless Yasu 'killed' her persona.

[witchfan]

@Jan-Poo: basically regular Shkanon (Shannon = Kanon, no such person as Kanon exists) versus my take on Shkanon (I outlined it in the latest page of Spoilers & Speculations).

@TehChron: You're awfully slow in realizing that, yes, I'm asking you to try and lower the curtain on me. How about we stop this pointless setup and you actually tell me why you disagree with me?

[Saorin]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Why does Kanon think he's furniture?

And I'm still searching for a plausible answer as to why Genji is doing it as well.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

No, Kyrie and Rudolf killed all the servants.

Again, you're stating this as if it was a fact... Iirc, Gohda was the only servant actually shown dead in the Tea Party, and it was also explicitly stated that it was Gohda's key ring that Kyrie stole. It is quite unclear which servants she actually killed.

About the Eagle crest...
I think it might be not too far-fetched to assume that Kumasawa actually has it as Virgilia is also bearing one.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by witchfan

@TehChron: You're awfully slow in realizing that, yes, I'm asking you to try and lower the curtain on me. How about we stop this pointless setup and you actually tell me why you disagree with me?

Don't you mean why don't I tell you why you're wrong?

Well, nobody said Kanon isn't in on the plot... or that Shannon doesn't have a "Kanon" identity in addition to actual Kanon. I never argued against Shkanon in general, only against Shannon = Kanon.

Then that entire basis is irrelevant. Ultimately the fiction puts Kanon forth as an entity on the same level as Shannon, with the same knowledge base. The Love Duel presents a context for why that is, specifically, they're the same person.

The issue here isn't that there is foreshadowing that Kanon and Shannon are the same or are different individuals. The problem is that there's no foreshadowing that Shannon is exclusively pretending to be a stand-in for real Kanon. A one-sided impersonation is entirely your invention.

Prove your basis if you want to be taken seriously.

I don't remember this, sorry. If you give me the exact context (the lines), I could tell you what I think about it. Either way I don't think this is a big problem.

Irony.

I forgot. Was this referring to Kanon's death in EP1? If so, since I believe Kanon was killed much earlier than the crime, there is no contradiction in being unable to find his body.

On what basis? Sorry, it shouldn't be a problem to demonstrate what lines exactly foreshadow this possibility, right?

Sounds like a pretty ridiculous way to solve this puzzle (Shannon switches to "Kanon" mode, saves Battler, switches back to "Shannon" mode... yeah, very convenient trick she has there. Was she trying to trick the red she-doesn't-know-exists or something? And besides, even if Shannon exited the room as Kanon, it would still mean that "Shannon doesn't exist in the room"). But anyhow, do the reds pose a problem to Kanon (who is not Shannon) rescuing Battler?

Do you even know why the Logic Error strongly implies Shkannon as the solution? And why the character status credits at the end show Kanon as being "dead on the second twilight", the only dead character not on the first? Kanon dies on the second twilight. The only chance he has to do so is after rescuing Battler, since only Kanon can use his name, and the reds state he did in fact save Battler.

Do I need to explain that logic error to you? Would you like me to? ahahaha.wav

This is an interpretation of the Love Duel (I also consider it unsatisfactory - does she kill everyone because she can't decide who to be with? How is that related to the epitaph and the murders of unrelated people?). I can think of many such interpretations. This doesn't mean "regular Shkanon" solves the problem, it merely means it allows for an additional interpretation. To solve this problem, regular Shkanon needs to provide a convincing interpretation of the Love Duel, along with evidence.

Quit demanding proof for other basis' when your own interpretation is even less supported by the text.

The onus isn't on others to cure you of your ignorance, read the novel like the rest of us did. Simple. You're the one who's raising a counter theory, so you're just as obligated to provide evidence as regular Shkanon is.

That's what it means to debate. That's what it means to make a case. Get with the program or get moving.