[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[AuraTwilight]

Can't be good if George or Battler decided to bed HER. Not enough genetic diversity because she has 75% Kinzo from Beatrice 2's SIDE. Both Battler and George have 25% of KINZO. I'm not brushed up on my genetics but is that RIGHT? Genetics wise not really in terms of morality since that is another nutshell I refuse to touch with a ten foot POLE.

Also didn't Genji fake Yasu's AGE? He claimed her to be 16 when she was actually 19. In the narration itself it was odd for children that young to serve according to the Fukuin SERVANTS.
__________________

It's heavily implied that Yasu can't have children, so the genetics issue is muted.

[Jaden]

In ep2 Beatrice taunts Shannon about how she and George are going to die without even getting to sleep together. I wonder why? While her love might be pure and innocent, she's not clearly not ignorant about that stuff.

And Kanon is still really hard to explain, isn't he? This episode implies he is indeed an "imaginary friend", so does that mean he never actually appears to the other characters? Then that's Jessica's entire character turned over, and what was that culture festival scene? Isn't that from outside the gameboard?

So if it is actually Yasu in disguise, how does she pull it off? Kanon is recognised by Jessica and by extension he must be recognised by all of the people on the island. I get that Yasu can conspire with the other servants and Kinzo, but how does she live a double servant life while living in the same house as Krauss, Jessica and vigilant Natsuhi? It seems kind of far fetched.

[Tyabann]

The way I see the whole Kanon issue is as follows:

-Before October 4th and 5th, 1986, there is only one servant, Shannon, aka 'Sayo Yasuda' the androgynous (yet treated as female) servant.
-During the game, there are two servants on the island, both 'Shannon' and 'Kanon', although neither looks anything like Yasu. However, they are fictional characters based off of Yasu's imaginary friends, similar to Erika in some ways. Because of this, the reality outside the gameboard is altered to correspond to the 'truth' within the gameboard.

This means that every time Kanon or Shannon appear outside of the gameboard, you can replace them with Yasu and obtain the same result.

Yasu, wearing a wig and that massive coat, could easily pretend to be a boyfriend for Jessica, and this is when, I feel, that Jessica began to get, er, confused.

[LyricalAura]

There's another element here that I think hasn't been considered -- the Witch Hunters. If Kanon is just a phantom that exists only in the message bottles and forgeries, or a disguise worn by Yasu, wouldn't that be incredibly easy to check against the Fukuin House records?

[Jaden]

Oh yeah, that works. It's a bit confusing because I still think of him/her dressing up as something like Shannon most of the time, so it'd be strange for Jessica to get the idea to dress Shannon as a boy... otherwise George has a thing for petite blonde traps? Or George still doesn't know about and doesn't see through the disguise even though they are fairly close? Well, these are trivialities, and we haven't even seen a sprite for the real thing at this point.

edit: about the Fukuin house, isn't it pretty much owned by the family? So in the future with the witch hunters, Eva would be in control of it and could obscure any records. Or else, Yasu used the magic of gold.

[Kylon99]

It could be as thus, neither George-prime nor Jessica-prime really had any romance with anyone. The message bottle was the first time there were hints and the Witch Hunters are unable to verify any of this but we are not shown.

Disclosure: I am making this comment as if I haven't played episode 8.

Also, I proposed this back when I introduced the Author Theory. I thought that Rokkenjima could be radically different from what we saw in the episodes. Shannon and Kanon may not have made it to the island, our even exist. Even battler too.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jaden

about the Fukuin house, isn't it pretty much owned by the family? So in the future with the witch hunters, Eva would be in control of it and could obscure any records. Or else, Yasu used the magic of gold.

Yes, both of them could have done so, but why? In Eva's case, the message bottles already have no credibility because they contradict each other, so there's no reason to try to cover up inconsistencies after the fact. And in Yasu's case, forging an identity for Kanon doesn't really make sense unless she's deliberately planning against people outside the island investigating. Even if you subscribe to the theory that she was planning to actually kill anyone, she seemed to be too apathetic about the outcome to care what happened afterward.

[AuraTwilight]

There's another element here that I think hasn't been considered -- the Witch Hunters. If Kanon is just a phantom that exists only in the message bottles and forgeries, or a disguise worn by Yasu, wouldn't that be incredibly easy to check against the Fukuin House records?

Yea, because orphanages totally just let strangers look at the records of kids they've had. Honestly.

Regardless, in regular Shkanon, Kanon's identity was probably forged with Genji's help or something.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Yea, because orphanages totally just let strangers look at the records of kids they've had. Honestly.

An orphanage probably wouldn't, officially. But then you also have rich dilettantes approaching officials off the record with money. And with all the crap that was dug up about the Ushiromiya family, don't you think somebody would be poking around the servants too?

[Jaden]

You've read it then Kylon? Don't have to answer my questions if it feels too awkward The romances being total fiction is a possibility. Jessica's and Kanon's day at the festival doesn't require it, and maybe George and Shannon's "date" was something else entirely.

Then, why would those romances be in the story if they're not real?

Maybe to misdirect the readers of the message bottles, deepen the mystery? With all that, tearing apart the two who are close, creating possible motives, and so on.

Or just Yasu propagating her own dreams? So she changed her one-sided love for Battler to one-sided love for George and Jessica? >_>

I still like to think they're real, it livens up the cast that way. And don't want to abandon the episodes until now to utter fantasy.

[Exilon]

So I just finished reading Episode 7 and what one heck of a ride that was. It simply blew me away, and did leave me with a sense of contentment. However, that cliffhanger at the end with Will and Lion.. wasn't very happy.

I'd like to thank Witch Hunt for the preserverance in this. Umineko is by far one of my favorite series. =)

Also, I'd like to give my 'SEAL OF GREAT AWARD' in the category of 'SIDESTEP OF THE CENTURY' ('The servant cannot be the culprit' was never disrespected, and it was beautiful.) and 'GREATEST BATTLE OF ALL TIME'. I gotta thank Ryukishi for providing the solutions like he did - even though they are major hints to the closed rooms, they don't exactly reveal the solution unless you think about it and have some theories of your own. If you got it right, or supsected it, you'll know; otheriwse, you'll be left in the dark. Pretty amazing for an "Answer check".

and I'm all up for theorizing now, specially about Kanon. =D

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Final guesses on three rules:
X: The bomb goes off at 11:59 PM on Oct 5.
Y: Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice
Z: Anything that appears magical is caused by a deliberate lie.

I had a bit different take on these:

X: The Epitaph (If the epitaph is not solved, 'Beatrice' kills everyone.)
Y: The Family (Even if the epitaph is solved, the money can cause the adults to go berserk and still murder everyone.)
Z: The Bomb / Battler (In the end it's pointless if Battler cannot remember his sin. The bomb, set by Beatrice/Yasu will still go off unless Battler figures it out.)

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The obvious problem here is that later that very culprit talks in first person about events that had Shannon as protagonist. So why hiding the culprit's identity if later s/he practically admits that s/he's Shannon?

As far as my interpretation goes, the reason for that is not the disclosure of her identity since that becomes a given, but rather her appearance. My take on this is that in reality the drawings we see of Kanon and Shannon are metaphorical - they are purely what the observers (us), or Yasu concepts them to be.

In reality, Shannon is actually blonde and her boobs are not as BIG as they seem so concealing them when Kanon is not that hard. The EP6 Beatrice creation scene has Yasu-Beatrice (not yasu-shannon) saying "become the blond locks Battler admires, etc." which makes sense since the one changing was Yasu-Beatrice, which until then, had white hair and clothing.

This is also supported by the fact Yasu has so many representations (Zepar,Furfur,Claire,Kanon,Shannon,Lion,Yasu-Beatrice,Elder Beatrice)("oh, I am one yet many"); how to pinpoint which one is his/hers true appearance?

[Kamel]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

It could be as thus, neither George-prime nor Jessica-prime really had any romance with anyone. The message bottle was the first time there were hints and the Witch Hunters are unable to verify any of this but we are not shown.

Disclosure: I am making this comment as if I haven't played episode 8.

Also, I proposed this back when I introduced the Author Theory. I thought that Rokkenjima could be radically different from what we saw in the episodes. Shannon and Kanon may not have made it to the island, our even exist. Even battler too.

Wasn't it at the very least stated that the reason for Yasus actions is for a large part her problem with her multiple love interests.

when Will and Bern were talking about reasons for tragedy it was said that it chapened because Batler came back at the worst possible moment, and that if he returned later when the "duel of lovers " would have been over nothing so big would have hapened.

The point is that in every game we were shown so far it's Yasu's actions that are at the very least the trigger of the tragedy, be it Will's investigation, Beato's games, or the world shown by Bern in the 7th tea party. So if it's for a large part her love triad that is a factor that make's her do what she didthen and there shouldn't it mean it had to be real at least in some form

Also wasn't the 7th game or at the very least the tea party done by Bern for Au Au in order for her to clarify what really happened.

[winter 923]

What i would like to know is why Shannon is becoming clumsy? She is supposed to be the good, kind maid. If she is just one of Yasu's persona wouldn't it make more sense keeping Shannon the perfect maid and making Kanon, the newer and younger one, clumsy?
Is Yasu actually playing out more than 1 role and getting weak and clumsy because of the lack of sleep?

And Jessica really disturbed me in this EP. To find out that she would act the same even if she had an older sibling might be more creepy than Yasu's multible persona. Oh and also learning that she fakes coughs.

Spoiler for Who killed Beatrice:

Are there not 3 Answers?
1. Lion. If Natsuhi accepts the Child, Beatrice won't be born.
2. The Person who acts as Beatrice can stop acting as her.
These are the 2 that were mentioned but what about this one.
3. The Person who acts as Beatrice got killed.

Is it possible that Yasu got killed on November the 29th 1985 when she truly became a witch.
I still think Battlers birthday is fake but then who was born on July 7? also it might be coincidence but caramel candys melt in July.
07151129 there is no way this is a message to Battler, he can't know Yasu "cleared the riddle" on that day. Yes a born-died date in month/day-month/day seems strange but that's the only thing i can come up with. Also i find it strange that it is the last Chapter in Beatrice's Book.

Kinzo says even he might forget the process because it is so hard? Are you kidding me? If it is really what we are shown there is no way he forgets something so simple and he already knows the Answer.
"The epitaph wasn't solved. Someone was made to solve it."
How about this, Genji knows about Yasu's broken heart and/or disorder/whateveryoucallit and he wants to grand his master and old friend peace so they use Yasu to revive Beatrice.

Spoiler for Rosa is Beatrice:

I did read that a few pages ago and i thought the same in the beginning of that part.
1) Why did Rosa come with Maria to Rokkenjima. It was shown that she would even leave her alone for days, was it to festen the binding? Rosa doesn't like to talk about Business when Maria is around, Maria sat next to Rosa on that day.
2) Maria's Beatrice in EP7 is shown as "Beatrice the witch" and as "Clair Beatrice"
3) Beatrice doesn't know much about magic at first. Maria's believe in magic is based on the bible, the Fukuin-Director at least preached the same words so they should connect.
4) Wash you Hands and rinse your mouth as a ritual? thats very motherly and kinda disapointing if we consider Yasu's imagination.
5) Maria believes that Beatrice can posess bodies, this can imply that she at least met 2 different Beatrices
6) Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo can see Beatrice, brought tea or even watched her doing some magic while Maria was around.
7) Beatrice can't appear before Rosa, because Rosa plays Beatrice?

Don't get me wrong, i can counter all of these but it does make me wonder. There are 2 things that counter everything: Beatrice never appears outside of Rokkenjima, this one is still weak but: would Rosa really portrai the witch of a person she thought she killed and was agonized many years from this secret?

There are only 5 master keys I don't like the mentality of EP7 its "forget whatever happend, stop thinking and let me chew your meal for you"

I don't accept the tea party of EP7, first i thought it was a nice story and even asumed that Battler is the GM (That world might be cruel but Beato doesn't kill anyone and Ange would stop hunting ghosts of the past after seeing that) but the script is exactly like Bern said, heartless and only the result will show. "As long as only Eva survives it doesn't matter what happend" I think this shows the most with George and Eva. George is as stupid as a sack of potatoes in this episode and Eva survives being shot 3 times while the first time the opponent even had all the time she wanted because the weapon was jammed.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by winter 923

07151129 there is no way this is a message to Battler, he can't know Yasu "cleared the riddle" on that day. Yes a born-died date in month/day-month/day seems strange but that's the only thing i can come up with.

After we were told this was a bank deposit security number, I came back to EP3 and looked at the scene again. To me it didn't seem like it was something meant for Battler or anything, but it looked like some kind of direct communication. At that time, I thought it was some kind of challenge back at the person who gave out the bank deposits as if, "Hah, I don't need yer stinkin' money." Since only the giver and the receiver would know what it meant.

However it could've been a gift to Eva for getting George killed somehow? "A small golden land is opened" I remembered the TIPS being said. But then, this would have to mean Eva knew of the cash card to begin with in EP3... ... how? Hmmm...

Originally Posted by Kamel

Wasn't it at the very least stated that the reason for Yasus actions is for a large part her problem with her multiple love interests.

As with the Author Theory, what happens in the stories are separate from what happens in Rokkenjima Prime. It may very well be that there was nobody called 'Yasu' and she is a fictional character meant to be detected in EP1-4.

But the reasons for the fiction aren't to be dismissed, though. We are led to believe that someone wrote EP1-2 in order to expose the truth and EP3 and onwards to further expose the truth... the fiction itself has to be consistent, logical and worthwhile still.

Originally Posted by Jaden

You've read it then Kylon? Don't have to answer my questions if it feels too awkward The romances being total fiction is a possibility. Jessica's and Kanon's day at the festival doesn't require it, and maybe George and Shannon's "date" was something else entirely.

Then, why would those romances be in the story if they're not real?

I think that whoever it is cared for these two people and didn't want them to lose out on love either. So it's plausible that they wrote love interests for George and Jessica. However, that person was weighed down by what she knew of 'the real world' perhaps... Anyways, until Ryukishi lets us know more about what happened in Rokkenjima Prime (1986 or 1998)... it's a mystery to us...

Anyways, I'd better not say much more. I'm getting confused with what I should or should not know till now...

My Umineko Theory signature link is safe up to EP6 by the way... I didn't need to really update it after EP7...

[winter 923]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

After we were told this was a bank deposit security number, I came back to EP3 and looked at the scene again. To me it didn't seem like it was something meant for Battler or anything, but it looked like some kind of direct communication. At that time, I thought it was some kind of challenge back at the person who gave out the bank deposits as if, "Hah, I don't need yer stinkin' money." Since only the giver and the receiver would know what it meant.

However it could've been a gift to Eva for getting George killed somehow? "A small golden land is opened" I remembered the TIPS being said. But then, this would have to mean Eva knew of the cash card to begin with in EP3... ... how? Hmmm...

I never really liked to close the chapter just because we know it's a security code. Umineko isn't really often giving dates away and here we have 07.15 and 11.29

Well Ange thought so too, Beatrice is mocking and paying off the survivors. I mean Ange, Kumasawa and Nanjo (their children ofc) got Bank Deposit Cards but then, why not sending Eva's card per post. It could have been forseen that Kumasawa and Nanjo's children did not come to the island but Ange is a different story.

Spoiler for EP3:

If we take EP7 into account then EP3 would have been like this: Eva and Rosa find the VIP room, Beatrice tells everything and hands over the 1Billion card with the number, Eva hits the switch (they find her at 11am so an half day is left) then... Rosa dies first so she can't give the number away. George dies with Shannon/Beatrice so she can't give the number away. One who could give the number away is Genji who was part in the fake first twilight, exchanged the gold into money in the first place and is also suspected to be behind the red paintings. But why and to who? Only Kumasawa and Nanjo should also know that november 29 is the day a new Master of Rokkenjima was born. For anyone else it should be a random number.

[Exilon]

Originally Posted by winter 923

I never really liked to close the chapter just because we know it's a security code. Umineko isn't really often giving dates away and here we have 07.15 and 11.29

Spoiler for EP3:

If we take EP7 into account then EP3 would have been like this: Eva and Rosa find the VIP room, Beatrice tells everything and hands over the 1Billion card with the number, Eva hits the switch (they find her at 11am so an half day is left) then... Rosa dies first so she can't give the number away. George dies with Shannon/Beatrice so she can't give the number away. One who could give the number away is Genji who was part in the fake first twilight, exchanged the gold into money in the first place and is also suspected to be behind the red paintings. But why and to who? Only Kumasawa and Nanjo should also know that november 29 is the day a new Master of Rokkenjima was born. For anyone else it should be a random number.

I always thought the code was for a safe at a bank account ever since it appeared in EP3.

Spoiler for EP3:

It's possible for Beatrice (Shannon/Kanon if you will) to do it before George arrives. The thing is that, since her plan fails as the epitaph is solved after the first twilight (and she is 'dead'), AND she doesn't encounter them at the gold room, one could assume Eva/Rosa MIGHT have the card, but not the code. Another reason for Shannon to do it is because she has been shot and is dying. Also, I'm not a believer of 'fake' twilights, even though in episode 3 this possibility seems likely. However, right after the first twilight, Meta-Beatrice confirms all the servants are dead.

[Kanon]

Finished it today. Bernkastel's overall "decent" attitude throughout the game felt very off, and was a bit disappointing. Then came the tea party, and oh boy did it deliver! Jesus Christ, what a bitch! Bern is seriously one of the most memorable and loathsome villains I've seen these past few years. I LOVE hating her. In truth, I love her. Period. She's so deliciously evil (perhaps a bit too much).

The main game was interesting but not very thrilling, since all it did was confirm what we already suspected, and what I was already convinced of. I was still quite surprised that Yasu/Lion/Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice/Clair/Sayo/Yasuda/whatshisname was the child of Kinzo and his own daughter. Yasu (herself an incest baby) is therefore in love with three of her nephews/nieces... that's a lot to take in at once. I wonder how Jessica and George will react when/if the truth is revealed to them.

I can't wait to find out how all this will end. This time, I'll try my damn hardest to stay away from any spoiler. Despite Bern's claim, I'm pretty sure we'll get a happy ending. I'd be very surprised if it isn't the case.

[Sir Andy Richter]

I don't know, I kinda find Bern so one dimensionally evil with no character development, and thus incredibly boring.

[AuraTwilight]

Are there not 3 Answers?
1. Lion. If Natsuhi accepts the Child, Beatrice won't be born.
2. The Person who acts as Beatrice can stop acting as her.
These are the 2 that were mentioned but what about this one.
3. The Person who acts as Beatrice got killed.

No, there's only two answers. Will denied the third option because Beatrice the character doesn't stop living just because you kill her actor.

[SonozakiUshiromiya]

Originally Posted by winter 923

What i would like to know is why Shannon is becoming clumsy?And Jessica really disturbed me in this EP. To find out that she would act the same even if she had an older sibling might be more creepy than Yasu's multible persona. Oh and also learning that she fakes coughs.

Well, Yasu is clumsy. You can fake being bad at something if you're really good at it, but you can't fake being really good at something of you're bad at it. And as for Jessica, she was just faking her asthma to get out of uncomfortable situations. And her situation realy isn't that different in Lion's world. From ep 2, we know that whenever Eva's family visits, Jessica is compared to George. In Lion's world, she's compared to Lion.