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Old 2010-04-15, 04:17   Link #101
Mr. Johnny 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
He doesn't scream anymore? As soon as he's angered, he attacks without thinking. Against Pain he just screamed a bit, I suppose the destruction of Konoha didn't come through yet fully. However, as soon as Hinata got pwned, he went into a mindless rage. He got very lucky that Minato made the seal like he did, but you can hardly call that calm.

Naruto can not control his emotions. When his buttons are pushed he doesn't care anymore and just attacks. In the worst case scenario he goes Kyuubi, endangering everyone around him, including allies. Hopefully, after this training he will get rid of that problem.
True, i agree with your point. Still at that point, there wasn't much choice either.
I don't like the if, but if he didnt, he would've been captured.

I think it's even thinking beyond the safety of Konoha but... Naruto should do absolutly anything to make sure he won't get captured. Because if he gets captured... Killerbee aswell then obviously the world will suffer ALOT more then he can do by himself even in Kyuubi form.

Don't you agree?
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Old 2010-04-15, 04:23   Link #102
JustRob
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I agree, but in my opinion even without Kyuubi he still had a chance to defeat Pain. But you're right, however, then we come to a tough question: Is it okay to risk the lives of comrades in order to save the world?
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Old 2010-04-15, 04:42   Link #103
Ashaman
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Um, tough philisophical question.

In my opinion, yes. Sometimes dangerous people must be fought even if your comrades might die.

Naruto's opinion would probably differ slightly. He would either trust in his comrades to look after themselves or want to take everything on himself, depending on how much he trusts those comrades.
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Old 2010-04-15, 05:16   Link #104
Mr. Johnny 5
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
I agree, but in my opinion even without Kyuubi he still had a chance to defeat Pain. But you're right, however, then we come to a tough question: Is it okay to risk the lives of comrades in order to save the world?
I think Itachi and Hatake Sakumo answered your question.

Fact is... we all will die one day. And if we all (hopefully) stand before Him (God)... and if He would ask me that question... i'd most likely say...yes. The grief would beyond any words but... in the end... we are one race and (very) distant relatives. So i would do so.

A risk is never a certainty... but if you can save billions or millions (who you don't know) above the (1-50) that you do know (very well)...it would be a reasonable thing to do i guess. If i would die and it would be the reason that someone close to me chose the world above his friend/family... then i would definetly accept it.
If it would be the opposite... i would be grateful, but i would definetly show him that he shouldn't have picked me..cuz you and i aren't the same worth of 1.000.000 (or more) other people.
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Old 2010-04-15, 06:36   Link #105
Pentium
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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
Say that to Raikage who's awesomeness can only be compared to what would happen if Samuel L MOTHERF*CKING Jackson and Mr. T had a child who was raised by Rambo. Even with Sage Mode I think Raikage can b*tch slap Naruto into next week.
I laughed so hard at this! Well played indeed!
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Quote by Cub-Sama: Say that to Raikage who's awesomeness can only be compared to what would happen if Samuel L MOTHERF*CKING Jackson and Mr. T had a child who was raised by Rambo. Even with Sage Mode I think Raikage can b*tch slap Naruto into next week.
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Old 2010-04-15, 07:10   Link #106
Sabaku Kyu
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So Naruto gone to where the wild things are huh? It looks like training with Killer Bee will be funny stuff. But it's kind of disappointing that Naruto's training keeps him isolated so often. With the exception of the Gaara rescue arc there's been a standard formula:

Naruto goes somewhere solitary to train > Konoha gets raped horribly by Akatsuki > Naruto finishes his training and arrives just in time to take care of the bad guys. Now there's another training arc and I can't help but think Naruto's friends going to get beat to a pulp again so he can arrive to save them

At least there's a twist this time in that Killer Bee may have brought trouble with him. Would Kisame try to take the Hachibi and Kyuubi at the same time?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Johnny 5
I think Itachi and Hatake Sakumo answered your question.
Answered in which way?

With Sakumo, nothing was worth letting comrades die, no matter how high stakes the mission was. That's why he was disgraced and committed suicide.

For Itachi his family and clan were all worth sacrificing for the greater good however, his little brother wasn't.

The lines are really blurry even within the story. Naruto's really the only character who gets to save everyone with a happy ending. The other characters faced with serious consequences from choosing either philosophy.
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Old 2010-04-15, 08:06   Link #107
DeDe
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Just where are you getting this from? Naruto has never once shown any indication that he would ever sacrifice anyone, save himself, for any mission, no matter its importance. Even going back as far as the Chuunin Exam, Naruto pushed Sasuke aside, and told him he would handle a fight clearly out of Sasuke's league (at the time).
Manga chapter 118. Naruto accepted Shikamaru's sacrifice to delay the 9 Sound ninja. So Naruto and Sakura could pursue Sasuke. It was a total suicide mission. Naruto was about to offer, before Shikamaru said he was the only one who could do it. If Asuma didn't magically appear, Shikamaru would be dead. So early on Naruto knew someone was going to die so the mission succeeded. That doesn't make him reckless. Just a realist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
To put it simplistically, Shikimaru, the first chuunin, and arguably the most mature 'kid' in the series, still followed a similar path to Sasuke (seeking revenge for those that hurt you) when his sensei was killed in a battle he started. Naruto, though, sought peace, but was willing to back it up with extreme force if he had to..
Each are a totally different situation. In the Zombie Twin case, they were coming to Konoha to capture Naruto no matter what. They were enemy ninja who entered the Land of Fire and destroyed a Fire Temple, killing almost all inside. So they started the battle. After killing Asuma, they told those present they would return and kill them after helping seal the two tails. Kakuzu even said he would take Asuma's body back. So it wasn't like Team 10 had to seek them out through many lands for some Shakespearean revenge. They weren't like Sasuke, who broke his bonds and left for the enemy, in order to get stronger for his revenge. Kakuzu and Hidan were heading back to Konoha. Shikamaru had two choices. He could run and let someone else less intelligent than him deal with these two. Or he could accept this was his responsibility and take what he learned from the battle. It goes back to when he wanted to run away from being a ninja after the Sasuke rescue mission failure.

Nagato and Hidan were also two extremely different characters. Each was created by Kishimoto for a purpose. Nagato, while a psychopath, once believed in the same things as Naruto. Nagato was a victim of the ninja system. There was still goodness inside of him that Naruto could tap into. If Naruto faced Hidan, his ideals of peace would have fell on deaf ears. He would of been forced to neutralize him just like Shikamaru did. Would that mean Naruto and his notions of peace were a failure since he ended up having to use violence to stop a living person? No, it just shows Kishimoto did not give Naruto someone to go against where his new world outlook would fail.
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Old 2010-04-15, 08:40   Link #108
Ulquiorra
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Is it just me, or does Naruto become a more interesting and fun character when no one from Team 7 is around to bring him down? I am talking about Sasuke and Sakura. Even Kakashi. I enjoyed his stupid faces and humor this chapter. Yeah he still acts like an idiot, but a fun idiot.
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Old 2010-04-15, 08:57   Link #109
Luminion Lancer
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-Ok, let's break this down here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
Both scenes you name involve Naruto taking over the fight, not him assisting anyone in a fight.
-Entering the fray while everyone else has been for for the most part decimated is not a form of assistance? Besides, if the people of Konoha were able to do something against the enemy at the time, Naruto wouldn't have had to take matters into his own hands. Instead, he held the enemy at bay while everyone else recuperated. How that is not assistance in your book I will never know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
In a squad, you work in a team, you don't order the other members to go away because you're strong enough to handle it.
-Last I checked, Naruto never told them to "go away" as you put it. All he told Tsunade was that he would rather not have to worry about the others and considering the giant gaping hole in the middle of Konoha, I think he was right on the money. Besides that, Naruto was not in his Team 7 squad at the time (as in he was not acting with them on a mission), but was working as a single unit so your "squad" argument is invalid here. And if you still try to justify it then you can consider the frogs Naruto had with them as his "squad", with which he worked in perfect tandem with. So too bad I guess, like it or not, Naruto is far more a team player than you seem to think so.

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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
Naruto doesn't know when to give up, and not everyone has a ridicilous amount of chakra like Naruto. In the end, he will drag his teammates down with him.
-Uh-huh, because that attitude has really never served anyone else in their favour, right? I guess Lee should never have used it to master his own discipline then. Yes, he really is a staunching failure for not knowing when to give up . Please, this argument is just plain ridiculous. How exactly do you know when to give up when you yourself do not know your own limits? In all of the fights we have seen in Naruto, there has always been a way to get through a situation. Your argument was most supported by Part 1 Sasuke and Sakura during their 1st encounter with Zabuza. The 2 wanted to quit and abandon the mission while Naruto's "never give up" attitude allowed them to free Kakashi and succeed. How is that dragging others down hmmm? They do not have to have large chakra pools in order to match Naruto. None need to do that. All they have to do is push and exghaust all limits in order to find a way not known to them before. This is war right now. Using that "never give up" attitude is what will help some no-name ninja soldier return home to his wife and kids. I really fail to see how this is a negative quality. Yes there may be times when a retreat is the best option but so far I have not bore witness to any that Kishimoto presented.
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Old 2010-04-15, 09:04   Link #110
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by DeDe View Post
Manga chapter 118. Naruto accepted Shikamaru's sacrifice to delay the 9 Sound ninja. So Naruto and Sakura could pursue Sasuke. It was a total suicide mission. Naruto was about to offer, before Shikamaru said he was the only one who could do it. If Asuma didn't magically appear, Shikamaru would be dead. So early on Naruto knew someone was going to die so the mission succeeded. That doesn't make him reckless. Just a realist.
Didn't they both have serious doubts to whether or not Shika would really do it instead of just running away?

Besides I don't think Naruto actually considered it a suicide mission despite the odds, he believed Shika would pull through somehow.
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Old 2010-04-15, 09:07   Link #111
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
He doesn't scream anymore? As soon as he's angered, he attacks without thinking. Against Pain he just screamed a bit, I suppose the destruction of Konoha didn't come through yet fully. However, as soon as Hinata got pwned, he went into a mindless rage. He got very lucky that Minato made the seal like he did, but you can hardly call that calm.

Naruto can not control his emotions. When his buttons are pushed he doesn't care anymore and just attacks. In the worst case scenario he goes Kyuubi, endangering everyone around him, including allies. Hopefully, after this training he will get rid of that problem.
That's your argument? Well, I'm sorry to say, but 90% of all Shinobi we have seen in the series are still genin, even if they have attained the rank of Kage...

Let's be simplistic about this: can you name a single chuunin (that has actual focus within the series) that actually lives up to what you are saying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeDe View Post
They weren't like Sasuke, who broke his bonds and left for the enemy, in order to get stronger for his revenge.
I agree with much of what you said (I obviously was never saying Shikimaru was exactly like Sasuke; nor was I saying that Nagato and Hidan were the same), but this point is a little off. Shikimaru was more than willing to directly go against the Hokage's orders (which in turn could be said to be going against Konoha) just to get his revenge. And claiming that he felt he was the best option, is simply an excuse used to justify his response. (And, of course, the conclusion to the battle was that Shikimaru's plan was perfect for Hidan, but failed miserably against Kakuzu (which the Hokage warned about (not specifically, of course)), and without extra help, Shiki would have gotten Team 10 compeltely killed.)

Last edited by james0246; 2010-04-15 at 10:27.
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Old 2010-04-15, 09:20   Link #112
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post

Let's be simplistic about this: can you name a single chuunin (that has actual focus within the series) that actually lives up to what you are saying?
Shikamaru.
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Old 2010-04-15, 09:25   Link #113
tkdtiger
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^Neji is another character that seems to view what opponents will do rather than jump in reckless. Example he closely watching the fight against Kisame and Gai. So he's not as wreckless either.

Well I do believe there are 2 views that the other characters have of Naruto. One is Naruto is naive and unwilling to accept reality. Neji lecturing Naruto is a perfect example of this and than you have characters like Tsunada who have complete faith in Naruto's abilities.
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Old 2010-04-15, 09:39   Link #114
james0246
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^Neji's a jounin...somehow.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Shikamaru.
Shikimaru, in his first mission, sacrificed his entire team in order to try and "rescue" Sasuke. Since sacrificing your team does not meet JustRob's idea of a Chuunin, then Shikimaru is not a very good Chuunin. (Additionally, Shikimaru's plan against Kakuzu and Hidan was woefully lacking, not for Hidan, but for Kakuzu. Again, Shiki lead his team into battle, and without outside help, they would have all died (Additionally, without that outside help, Kakuzu would have killed Team 10, and then gone to where Hidan and Shikimaru were, captured Shiki, then dug up and sewn back together Hidan, and let the crazed zombie kill Shikimaru - complete failure).)
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Old 2010-04-15, 09:44   Link #115
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^oh your right...somehow I forgot lol
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Old 2010-04-15, 09:57   Link #116
Gamma_Sennin
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
In a squad, you work in a team, you don't order the other members to go away because you're strong enough to handle it.
IIRC, Isn't that what Tobirama did? What Kakashi ordered team 7 to do against Zabuza? Although team work is a useful tool, Shikaku suggested that sometimes, when you have someone of the ability of Naruto, the best team work is to leave them to it.

Also I felt Naruto worked pretty well with Team 7 versus the Kumo duo. Not only did he react first, but he nullified their attacks, and managed to save Sakura. Also managing emotions, is a key quality, however it never stopped Ae from leading Kumo, or Tsunade from insulting Pain.
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Old 2010-04-15, 10:30   Link #117
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post

Shikimaru, in his first mission, sacrificed his entire team in order to try and "rescue" Sasuke. Since sacrificing your team does not meet JustRob's idea of a Chuunin, then Shikimaru is not a very good Chuunin. (Additionally, Shikimaru's plan against Kakuzu and Hidan was woefully lacking, not for Hidan, but for Kakuzu. Again, Shiki lead his team into battle, and without outside help, they would have all died (Additionally, without that outside help, Kakuzu would have killed Team 10, and then gone to where Hidan and Shikimaru were, captured Shiki, then dug up and sewn back together Hidan, and let the crazed zombie kill Shikimaru - complete failure).)
I thought Rob was talking more about being unable to control emotions and not thinking things through not sacrificing teammates, sorry if I misread...

As for Shika, I think there's a difference between sacrificing your team and allowing them to enter high risk situations. Ninjas can't escape risk and sometimes leaders are forced into positions where they have to trust in their comrades ability survive against the odds which is what happened to Shika in his first mission.

Against Akatsuki, Shika technically wasn't acting as a team leader since he wasn't assigned a mission. He, Chouji and Ino all agreed to take the risk to avenge Asuma. Shikamaru just came up with the plan, which was actually pretty well thought out, he just didn't know Kakuzu's full abilities which admittedly would've screwed them if not for outside help. Still, he wasn't acting gung-ho or recklessly in either situation.

But I see what you're saying. Every character has strengths and weakness including Shika. There's really no example of a "perfect chuunin" in the story.
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Old 2010-04-15, 11:14   Link #118
Shiryuu
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lol so they just killed off Sasuke's last former teammates?
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Old 2010-04-15, 11:16   Link #119
Haak
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lol so they just killed off Sasuke's last former teammates?
Holy crap, I forgot all about them...
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Old 2010-04-15, 11:18   Link #120
james0246
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@Sabaku Kyu: Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I think Shikimaru is an exemplary chuunin, and he'd probably make a good Jounin as well. JustRob argued, though, that Naruto could not be a chuunin because he would "force his teammates to keep fighting until they die, instead of giving up the mission when there's no other choice", and if the opposite of that is the prerequisite for being a good chuunin, then no chuunin we know is any good.

But, the topic is done now, so there is no point in quibbling any further...
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