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Old 2010-07-23, 19:08   Link #121
iBeast
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
I can't believe people are seriously discussing this. I even doubt Sasuke could hold his own against Sandaime, but seriously Yondaime's superiority over that brat is clearly out of question.

I acknowledge that he's become a really strong ninja. I mean he almost single-handedly defeated Danzou. His eyes have tremendous power, and he is a genius. However, I really doubt, that his more basic skillset, at the young age of sixteen, is anywhere near Yondaime's, who was also a quick-learning genius. Take away his bloodline limit, just to test that skillset, and you'll see that he'd just be a weaker version of Kakashi. With the Sharingan, I'd say he might have surpassed his teacher, but has he reached Yondaime, the strongest leader the leaf has ever had? No way!

Now don't get me wrong. Sasuke is one of the two main characters and incredibly talented. I can see how it's very likely for both him and Naruto to surpass Minato one day, but that day is yet to come.
Lol now that was funny. Sandaime? Even Kakashi would wreck that old fart. Even a tag team of Rock Lee + Neiji would frustrate Sandaime.
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Old 2010-07-23, 19:17   Link #122
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Lol now that was funny. Sandaime? Even Kakashi would wreck that old fart. Even a tag team of Rock Lee + Neiji would frustrate Sandaime.
Yes, "that old fart" maybe, but a Hiruzen in his prime is a whole other story. Besides, that wasn't really the main point of my post, so let's rather not make a discussion out of that.
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Old 2010-07-23, 19:30   Link #123
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
Although I do believe Minato's speed was definetly above the average as one mentioned above, i have to disagree with you Ashaman. Naruto was tagged by a seal. Which is why he could move instantly towards Naruto... his home.... and probably also the mountains.

On top of the seal were the exploding tags...
Minato's basic speed is on par with one of the most powerful ninja's in history....Uchiha Madara... so i truly doubt their speed is just.... average.
He didn't teleport to grab Naruto. He couldn't. Naruto did not have any seal on him. He was just born and Minato never held him. He moved normally to grab Naruto, then used his Hiraishin to teleport away from the explosion. He even notes that he was forced to use the Hiraishin, which means he wasn't doing it before.
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Old 2010-07-23, 19:34   Link #124
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Originally Posted by iBeast View Post
Lol now that was funny. Sandaime? Even Kakashi would wreck that old fart. Even a tag team of Rock Lee + Neiji would frustrate Sandaime.
That old fart held his own against Orochimaru and the Hokages he resurrected.
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Old 2010-07-23, 20:15   Link #125
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That old fart held his own against Orochimaru and the Hokages he resurrected.
Pretty hard to tell considering he was already standing on one leg 2 minutes into the fight.
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Old 2010-07-24, 04:24   Link #126
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Pretty hard to tell considering he was already standing on one leg 2 minutes into the fight.
A three on one fight with one S-rank, and (saying the other two were weakened) two A-rank.

Anyone would have trouble with that, from the Raikage to Madara to Itachi.

He was old an feeble then; imagine him in his prime.

THe Professor, whose Jutsu knowledged surpassed even Orochimaru.

Even after his retirement he led a charge against the Kyuubi which knocked it out of the village.

Just pointing it out
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Old 2010-07-24, 05:46   Link #127
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
He didn't teleport to grab Naruto. He couldn't. Naruto did not have any seal on him. He was just born and Minato never held him. He moved normally to grab Naruto, then used his Hiraishin to teleport away from the explosion. He even notes that he was forced to use the Hiraishin, which means he wasn't doing it before.
Yes, you are correct. My mistake. Looked carefully again... but man!! He really is fast.. the lowest panel... he grabs Naruto while the explosion already started...(page 4 lowest panel) didnt notice that before. So... i think his speed is definetly way above average.
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Old 2010-07-24, 05:51   Link #128
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Yondaime > Sasuke
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Old 2010-07-24, 07:03   Link #129
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Madara said Minato was a man worthy of the title Hokage. At this point it's safe to assume Fourth>Sasuke. His fight with Madara showed that the fourth's fights, based on his techniques, will always end quickly.
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Old 2010-07-24, 13:11   Link #130
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You just compared a cheap Samurai trick to the ultimate in Shape Manipulation.
Sasuke made Kirin, Rasangan should be a sinch for him. In this manga, nothing is truly ultimate unless feats make it so. Zetsu said Sasuke's Kirin was the ultimate in shape nature manipulation.

Quote:
Like I said, he could probably use it, but not very effectively. First he would need to learn to spin chakra in various directions. Even after 3 years Naruto stil needs a clone to help him here.
Again, nothing is hard with Sasuke. Sasuke mastered three MS techniques by just fighting people. Then he started to create attacks of his own to use, Sasuke has enough chakra to spam Ammy 5 times in a row and use chidori more than 12 times. Chakra control at that level is Kage Level. Sasuke could just see the attack, mold chakra in his fist and perform a perfect base rasnangan.

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Then he would need to supply the power. When Naruto began to do this, he literally burned his hands. Sasuke has less chakra than Naruto, and Rasengan is a more chakra intensive Jutsu than Chidori. It wouldn't be worth it.
Sasuke never has a problem with chakra, all his chakra potential is based on what the plot wants him to have, Compared to Naruto's chakra, he's equal as far as I'm concerned, Sasuke's chakra isn't even ordinary, it's special, his chakra is a pure and potent chakra that rivals the Kyuubi's own. IMO, MS techniques > Rasangan techniques in chakra expense.



Quote:
Then he has to control it. All steps you need practice to do. Its not just the basic manipulation like adding edges. It is the pinnacle.
Kirin is the same, really it's not that difficult to master when you've got sharingan, strong chakra control and a mastery of chakra manipulation.

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Like I said, he could learn it, he may have the theory, but it would take him time to put it into practice.
I'm sure he can pull one off because he used Amaterasu the first time and he was still able to spam a chirori esio against Killer Bee.



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As the latest chap showed, FTG and Madara's Jutsu may be similar, but are unrelated. One didn't learn from the other.

And agan, you are comparing simple stuff like sealing shuriken into armbands and wearing them, the basics, to the highest level of sealing.

When they talk about Seals in the databooks, they mean hand seals; speed and variety. Not the written ones.
Sasuke can write seals.

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And say that even if he somehow does manage to copy it, Minato is faster than him, sharingan and all.
Now, but not forever.

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Just because he can now teleport to the same places as Minato, who do you think will have the advantage. The one who just learned, or the one who made the damn thing.
Sasuke always learns at an advance level in a fight, even when losing. He never has struggled with being a limited ninja as far as techniques go.

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Minato is faster than the Raikage, even with his speed Jutsu, and getting rid of FTG. Sasuke needed his sharingan to keep up, and he was still on the back foot that entire fight.
First of all the raikage is faster than Minato in his shroad form, that doesn't disprove Sasuke's abilites at the slightest since he had no info on Raikage or the Kages. Second, Sasuke needed a defense to protect him from people he never seen fight before. This was smart thinking.

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You keep talkng about how Sasuke is a genius. Yeah, but so is Minato. He is a genius amoung genius's.
Sasuke is the duertagonist of this manga, if Minato is a genius amoung genius's then Sasuke is destined to be the greastest Uchiha genius which he said which all other geniuses come off as average.
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Old 2010-07-24, 14:02   Link #131
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Again, nothing is hard with Sasuke. Sasuke mastered three MS techniques by just fighting people. Then he started to create attacks of his own to use, Sasuke has enough chakra to spam Ammy 5 times in a row and use chidori more than 12 times. Chakra control at that level is Kage Level. Sasuke could just see the attack, mold chakra in his fist and perform a perfect base rasnangan.
Yeah well, Itachi helped him a bit there. In his last moments he transferred his techniques to Sasuke. Chapter 397 page 11. However, the perfection of it (as seen against the Raikage) is Sasuke's talent.

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Sasuke never has a problem with chakra, all his chakra potential is based on what the plot wants him to have, Compared to Naruto's chakra, he's equal as far as I'm concerned, Sasuke's chakra isn't even ordinary, it's special, his chakra is a pure and potent chakra that rivals the Kyuubi's own. IMO, MS techniques > Rasangan techniques in chakra expense.
Naruto has Sage mode and now the Kyuubi. There is no way Sasuke is equal to Naruto at this moment. Also Sasuke's chakra is special. It surpasses the Kyuubi's in term of darkness. The one thing the Kyuubi said before Sasuke suppressed him was that his chakra was more sinister than his (Chapter 309 page 3). So much for it rivaling his. And him coming from a cursed clan also helps with that.

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Kirin is the same, really it's not that difficult to master when you've got sharingan, strong chakra control and a mastery of chakra manipulation.

I'm sure he can pull one off because he used Amaterasu the first time and he was still able to spam a chirori esio against Killer Bee.
Yup. No one can deny his talent with that.

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Sasuke can write seals.
So can Ten-Ten. What does this prove?

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Sasuke always learns at an advance level in a fight, even when losing. He never has struggled with being a limited ninja as far as techniques go.
I doubt the fourth would have made the fight last long enough for him to figure it out. See the fight with Madara. His Sharingan was useless against the Flying Thunder God Technique. If Sasuke get's tagged in the beginning of the battle and doesn't realize it. He has lost. If he does, Susanoo is pretty much his only way out.

Quote:
Sasuke is the duertagonist of this manga, if Minato is a genius amoung genius's then Sasuke is destined to be the greastest Uchiha genius which he said which all other geniuses come off as average.
Uchiha's in general are seen as geniuses. Kakashi gaiden proved this with Obito supposed to be a genius, and he sucked. And when he got his Sharingan he got a serious power boost. He was fighting along with Kakashi on pretty much the same level. So for that it's true.

However, Minato is a completely different case. Hiraishin and the Flying Thunder God technique are just so overpowered that a fight can't possibly take more than a minute. Sasuke surpassing him sounds unlikely, but I guess it's possible (anything is possible). But there's no way he would make Minato come off as average. Only the Rikudou Sennin can do that.
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Old 2010-07-24, 14:23   Link #132
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
Sasuke made Kirin, Rasangan should be a sinch for him. In this manga, nothing is truly ultimate unless feats make it so. Zetsu said Sasuke's Kirin was the ultimate in shape nature manipulation.
He says nothing of the sort. The scale is different. All Sasuke is doing is acting as a lightning rod. Impressive, but not the same.

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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
Again, nothing is hard with Sasuke. Sasuke mastered three MS techniques by just fighting people. Then he started to create attacks of his own to use, Sasuke has enough chakra to spam Ammy 5 times in a row and use chidori more than 12 times. Chakra control at that level is Kage Level. Sasuke could just see the attack, mold chakra in his fist and perform a perfect base rasnangan.
If Sasuke could, he'd already have done so. Sasuke could only do it if he knew how, and he doesn't. Even if he did, he couldn't do it on the spot. His chakra is weaker than Naruto's.

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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
Sasuke never has a problem with chakra, all his chakra potential is based on what the plot wants him to have, Compared to Naruto's chakra, he's equal as far as I'm concerned, Sasuke's chakra isn't even ordinary, it's special, his chakra is a pure and potent chakra that rivals the Kyuubi's own. IMO, MS techniques > Rasangan techniques in chakra expense.
He's not equal. Naruto's chakra far surpasses his. Sasuke's techniques don't use nearly as much chakra as Naruto's do, and the ones that do leave him exhausted.

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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
Kirin is the same, really it's not that difficult to master when you've got sharingan, strong chakra control and a mastery of chakra manipulation.
Kirin has nothing to do with the argument. It's an entirely different type of attack.

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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
I'm sure he can pull one off because he used Amaterasu the first time and he was still able to spam a chirori esio against Killer Bee.
And he was still tired as hell and had to be revived twice before winning.

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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
Sasuke can write seals.
So can anyone with a pen.

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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
Sasuke always learns at an advance level in a fight, even when losing. He never has struggled with being a limited ninja as far as techniques go.
So by the logic that Sasuke gets new powers to save his ass in combat, he must automatically win every battle?

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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
Sasuke is the duertagonist of this manga, if Minato is a genius amoung genius's then Sasuke is destined to be the greastest Uchiha genius which he said which all other geniuses come off as average.
Being a main character doesn't make Sasuke better than everyone else. Killer Bee would have killed him if not for random plot twists to save him, the Kage fight would have had him die no less than three times, Danzo fatally wounded him and Karin had to save him, and he would have lost to Naruto when last they met. All Sasuke has done is lurch from battle to battle, skating by on nothing more than saving throws by the author to keep him alive.
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Old 2010-07-24, 14:42   Link #133
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What an utter waste of time...
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Old 2010-07-25, 05:20   Link #134
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I detect some fan boyism here. Sasuke got his ass handed to him by the 8 tails so saying he's stronger thab the fourth I don't think so. Sasuke got a power up from Itachi so saying he has more potential is a joke.

Sasuke didn't need to learn any of his eye techniques as they were just given to him... pretty lame tbh.
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Old 2010-07-25, 05:39   Link #135
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He says nothing of the sort. The scale is different. All Sasuke is doing is acting as a lightning rod. Impressive, but not the same.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/05/

Zetsu said it was shape manipulation and it was the highest order of nature manipulation as well, seriously Sasuke made Lighting shapped into a big ass dragon. That is preety much on Minato's level.

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If Sasuke could, he'd already have done so. Sasuke could only do it if he knew how, and he doesn't. Even if he did, he couldn't do it on the spot. His chakra is weaker than Naruto's.
He'd know how because the sharingan would show him how it's done, and no his chaora is not weaker than Naruto's, his chakra has been compared to the nine tails itself. It's special, potent, and powerful. Sasuke doesn't need a tank load of it to do impossible jutsu's like the rasangan.

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He's not equal. Naruto's chakra far surpasses his. Sasuke's techniques don't use nearly as much chakra as Naruto's do, and the ones that do leave him exhausted.
Naruto only surpasses Sasuke in chakra amounts, not quaility and potentecy. Sasuke can use up more chakra than Kakashi and Minato, and can use more techniques that give him eye problems and serious strain on his body.

Prove that using the FRS is more straining than using something like Kirin, or Susanoo. I say it's equall.

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Kirin has nothing to do with the argument. It's an entirely different type of attack.
It's the same bases, Sasuke added fire element and then used shape manipulation with raition to shape the chakra in the clouds to create a dragon lighting and also conducts it with the lighting already in place/

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And he was still tired as hell and had to be revived twice before winning.
No doubt his stamina is higher though.

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So can anyone with a pen.
Sasuke's a genius though.

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So by the logic that Sasuke gets new powers to save his ass in combat, he must automatically win every battle?
No better than Naruto.

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Being a main character doesn't make Sasuke better than everyone else.
It quite does.
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Killer Bee would have killed him if not for random plot twists to save him,
Yet bee fled the fight and admited he would have died if that fire got on him and didn't use Karin as a distraction.
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the Kage fight would have had him die no less than three times,
That was Zetsus fault, and like I said, Sasuke didn't know a damn thing about them so it's not his fault he was being up against the strongest.
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Danzo fatally wounded him and Karin had to save him, and he would have lost to Naruto when last they met.
Sasuke tricked him and outwitted him in the same time without help though. And Sasuke took seven swords to the chest, he would have been fine. Danzou was losing though.
Quote:
All Sasuke has done is lurch from battle to battle, skating by on nothing more than saving throws by the author to keep him alive.
Ironic your describing Naruto and Sakura as well. None of the main character have the skills to fight the high level peeps on their own, they all need saving from other characters.

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Originally Posted by Pentium View Post
I detect some fan boyism here. Sasuke got his ass handed to him by the 8 tails so saying he's stronger thab the fourth I don't think so. Sasuke got a power up from Itachi so saying he has more potential is a joke.
Sasuke got his ass handed to him by Bee because he was holding back killing Bee, and he was weakened before the fight started and he had no info to stop Killer Bee from knowing he was a raiton user and a perfect Jinnchuriki.

Now he can beat Bee because he's master his MS techniques. Sasuke just keeps getting stronger each fight, thats the truth.

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Sasuke didn't need to learn any of his eye techniques as they were just given to him... pretty lame tbh.
A shinobi is only as good as the techniques they were given.
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Old 2010-07-25, 10:39   Link #136
morbosfist
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Zetsu said it was shape manipulation and it was the highest order of nature manipulation as well, seriously Sasuke made Lighting shapped into a big ass dragon. That is preety much on Minato's level.
"It's gonna be on a completely different scale from what humans can produce with their own chakra and nature manipulation." You might try actually reading your own quotes. Shape manipulation is never mentioned. It's nature manipulation only, said so in the very panel you try to cite.

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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
He'd know how because the sharingan would show him how it's done, and no his chaora is not weaker than Naruto's, his chakra has been compared to the nine tails itself. It's special, potent, and powerful. Sasuke doesn't need a tank load of it to do impossible jutsu's like the rasangan.
The Sharingan only allows the user to reproduce physical movement like taijutsu and handeals. Something like Rasengan, which uses no seals, could not be copied. Sasuke does not know how Rasengan works, as is obvious both times he fails to overpower it.

As for his chakra, again you misinterpret the obvious. What the Kyuubi says is that his chakra is more dark/evil than his own, not more powerful. Sasuke has less chakra, period.

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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
Naruto only surpasses Sasuke in chakra amounts, not quaility and potentecy. Sasuke can use up more chakra than Kakashi and Minato, and can use more techniques that give him eye problems and serious strain on his body.

Prove that using the FRS is more straining than using something like Kirin, or Susanoo. I say it's equall.
The Kyuubi's chakra is far more potent than anything Sasuke can put out, and Naruto's own Sage Mode is likewise much stronger. Sasuke definitely cannot use more chakra than Minato, who can teleport the Kyuubi's energy blasts to nowhere on a whim. All Sasuke has are a lot of low-chakra, high-intensity techniques.

How is FRS more straining than something like Kirin? Because it takes both shape and nature manipulation. Kirin does not.

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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
It's the same bases, Sasuke added fire element and then used shape manipulation with raition to shape the chakra in the clouds to create a dragon lighting and also conducts it with the lighting already in place.
No, that's not how it works at all. Sasuke used his fire element attacks in conjunction with Itachi's Amaterasu to create lightning clouds, the energy of which he channeled using the technique. There's no shape manipulation there, any more than making dragon heads out of mud or water is some masterful feat.

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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
No doubt his stamina is higher though.

Sasuke's a genius though.

No better than Naruto.
His stamina isn't higher. That much is a simple fact. Naruto's stamina, without question, is higher because he heals at an accelerated rate. To Sasuke being a genius, it doesn't take a genius to write seals. Ten Ten can do it. She isn't a genius. It's not a difficult skill. Finally, the difference between Naruto and Sasuke in that area is that Naruto gets his powers before the battle. Sasuke has to be saved mid-fight by plot no jutsu at almost every turn.

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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
Yet bee fled the fight and admited he would have died if that fire got on him and didn't use Karin as a distraction. That was Zetsus fault, and like I said, Sasuke didn't know a damn thing about them so it's not his fault he was being up against the strongest. Sasuke tricked him and outwitted him in the same time without help though. And Sasuke took seven swords to the chest, he would have been fine. Danzou was losing though. Ironic your describing Naruto and Sakura as well. None of the main character have the skills to fight the high level peeps on their own, they all need saving from other characters.

Sasuke got his ass handed to him by Bee because he was holding back killing Bee, and he was weakened before the fight started and he had no info to stop Killer Bee from knowing he was a raiton user and a perfect Jinnchuriki.

Now he can beat Bee because he's master his MS techniques. Sasuke just keeps getting stronger each fight, thats the truth.
It is Sasuke's fault he's going up against the strongest. He's the one picking fights and going in without thinking. Against Minato, he'd be dead in a second because he'd just rush in expecting his awesome Sharingan to win the day. Even Madara couldn't win and he knew what he was up against.

Against Bee, Sasuke could have used a reasonable strategy. But no. He kept getting hit because he was careless. He had to be saved twice, and his winning attack would have been cut short if Bee hadn't decided to take a vacation instead of getting up to fight again. Same thing against the Kages.

If Sasuke went into a fight knowing what his opponent could do, he would surely do better. But Sasuke doesn't fight like that.
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Old 2010-07-25, 11:32   Link #137
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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post

First of all the raikage is faster than Minato in his shroad form, that doesn't disprove Sasuke's abilites at the slightest since he had no info on Raikage or the Kages. Second, Sasuke needed a defense to protect him from people he never seen fight before. This was smart thinking.
This is more speculation than fact. The two individuals never fought so it's hard to compare their speed based on chapter unrelated to each other. I'm just saying though...

on a personal note I think by the end of the series Naruto and Sasuke would have surpassed the Hokages in terms of skill and strength. In fact I think everyone will eventually surpass their mentors...
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Old 2010-07-25, 11:49   Link #138
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Originally Posted by Sonic n Tails View Post
Sasuke got his ass handed to him by Bee because he was holding back killing Bee, and he was weakened before the fight started and he had no info to stop Killer Bee from knowing he was a raiton user and a perfect Jinnchuriki.

A shinobi is only as good as the techniques they were given.
Sasuke was fighting to kill. chap 412 page 7, Suigetsu says that is the only way to win.

They didn't know what to expect, and? Surprise is just as important as Jutsu.

Say if they both had knowledge of each others moves. Minato has the edge in speed, while Sasuke has more nin-jutsu. But the FTG is hax, even more than MS.

Sasuke's Tsuki genjutsu is inferior to Itachi's by quite a margin, and we don't know how well Minato copes with gen-jutsu anyway.

I just feel the need to point out that you say with his new knowledge on Bee, as well as his MS techs, sasuke will win. But doesn't Bee have knowledge on Sasuke as well.
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Old 2010-07-25, 16:55   Link #139
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link
Linking to such sites is against the rules. I suggest you remove it.
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Old 2010-07-25, 19:24   Link #140
Mr. Johnny 5
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Really... what a pointless arguement. I can't believe i read most of it. Must've been because of my holidays but damn...

Also just.... one thing i couldnt resist. How can one.... mention something... while they havent seen everything.
One could say... I am the fastest person there is. That is.... cuz they haven't seen Usain Bolt yet.
Spoiler:


My point... it is likely that the Sage of Six Paths had the most ultimate forms of techniques the world ever witnessed. But Zetsu wasnt there. When Minato kicked Madara's ass in 4 or 5D Zetsu.... wasnt there. When Kakashi thought the Sharingan evolved from the Byakugan... he wasn there. When Jiraiya witnessed the Rinnegan.. and frog jedi overlord Pa told Kakashi.... Kakashi responded in shock and thought it was a myth. Here it comes.... he... wasn't there.

Zetsu can't claim that something is the ultimate form of whatsoever.... because back then... he wasnt there.
So... should we consider everything the truth? Cuz i know. I wasn't there...
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