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Old 2014-04-23, 10:43   Link #34381
jjblue1
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Umineko Spoilers!
Part 1

Part 2

Of course I can't read them but from what I can see it seems Syao informed Genji of her plan and... that she's the author of Ep 3 & 4.
So were Banquet and Alliance not forgeries but real messages posted in the net as forgeries but originally authored by Sayo?
And it seems the chapter includes the first meeting between Sayo and Lambda that originally was in a tip.
There are some solutions for the games, Sayo's inner conflict and how the messages were tossed in the sea on the 3rd of October as well as the bank account.

... and I fear Confession ends really on the 3rd of October so no additional info on the truth of Rokkenjima.

On a personal note I prefer if Ep 3 & 4 were written by Sayo as they fit with the fact they're a challenge to Battler from Sayo/Beatrice, while if the author was Tohya it was a challenge to himself. However I'm still confused about why Tohya printed them under his name... sort of. Should we assume that since Ange's meeting with Hachijo was a fantasy all the info about Banquet and Alliance are false?
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Old 2014-04-23, 11:05   Link #34382
Renall
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Technically, we're never told in the VN which episodes are message bottle stories (except that Land was one of them and was lost). It's always been assumed that the two known message bottle stories were Legend and Turn but before the manga I don't know if there was confirmation of that. You're correct that there were claims regarding the authorship of Banquet/Alliance but in fairness the details around that were always pretty fuzzy.

The bigger problem would be a thematic one, or at least a plausibility gap. The text probably clarifies things though.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2014-04-23, 11:20   Link #34383
Drifloon
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Huh, so it's possible that Yasu wrote EP3 and EP4 afetr all? It's easy to miss, but actually, according to EP6, it was common for message bottle Forgers to claim that their works were authentic message bottles. Obviously that claim was generally assumed to be a lie, but it's entirely possible that "Hachijo Tohya" might have actually been telling the truth about it. That exact possibility is even explicitly brought up in the text, actually.

I had thought about that possibility before - it would make more sense of the meta-plot presenting Beatrice as the writer of all the first four episodes, at least - but at the same time I kind of liked a lot of the implications that could be drawn from Tohya being the author of those episodes. It seems like a shame to lose that, but we'll see what happens.
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Old 2014-04-23, 11:21   Link #34384
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Technically, we're never told in the VN which episodes are message bottle stories (except that Land was one of them and was lost). It's always been assumed that the two known message bottle stories were Legend and Turn but before the manga I don't know if there was confirmation of that. You're correct that there were claims regarding the authorship of Banquet/Alliance but in fairness the details around that were always pretty fuzzy.

The bigger problem would be a thematic one, or at least a plausibility gap. The text probably clarifies things though.
There was no confirmation that Legend and turn were messages in the bottles. What we were told was however that:

Quote:
Of all the Forgers, Itouikukuro was the one most highly regarded.
"......End of the Golden Witch. I've read that one. ......Seems you love killing off other people's families."
"Is that why you came all this way? Just to say that...? I think not, final descendant of the Ushiromiya family."
In her latest forgery, 'End', she killed off seven of my relatives, at least during the actual story.
No, if you count 'Alliance' and 'Banquet', the other forgeries she's made before now, then she's killed off most of my family in horrible ways, over and over again...
Of course I'd want to complain.
However, all of her works are known for being, in both form and level of completion, the closest tales to those written by 'Ushiromiya Maria' herself.
In particular, Itouikukuro's first forgery, 'Banquet of the Golden Witch', managed to show everything, including Ushiromiya Eva's escape to Kuwadorian. People wondered whether this might be the true story of Rokkenjima, and it even made it onto the talk shows...
This seems to imply the author of Banquet, Alliance and End is the same.
However there's to say the episodes we read are written from Battler's point of view when the narrator should be Maria so... are they remake?
Even Featherine says she used to watch Beato's gameboard from Battler's eyes and now she wants to watch Dawn through Ange's eyes... meaning maybe Battler was the reader/narrator?
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Old 2014-04-23, 11:24   Link #34385
Renall
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If the text even remotely resembles the narration, Maria couldn't possibly have been the narrator of any of those episodes. Unless we're seeing a complete rewrite, I have to assume Battler was always intended as the protagonist/detective. And that would kinda make more sense anyway given Yasu's objectives and the fact that Maria would know more about what was going on.

That still doesn't explain why Yasu would sign her message bottles as Maria, but the mere fact that she did so doesn't suddenly mean Maria would've also been the narrator. The stories are clearly works of fiction anyway.
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Old 2014-04-23, 11:29   Link #34386
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Huh, so it's possible that Yasu wrote EP3 and EP4 afetr all? It's easy to miss, but actually, according to EP6, it was common for message bottle Forgers to claim that their works were authentic message bottles. Obviously that claim was generally assumed to be a lie, but it's entirely possible that "Hachijo Tohya" might have actually been telling the truth about it. That exact possibility is even explicitly brought up in the text, actually.
Back then I considered the possibility that Sayo had showed Battler her games and he then unconsciously worked them into his tales as part of memories he sort of lost yet were still there. So he's the author but the idea isn't fully original. However I had discharged that theory in favour of him writing using the memories he had of that day.

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I had thought about that possibility before - it would make more sense of the meta-plot presenting Beatrice as the writer of all the first four episodes, at least - but at the same time I kind of liked a lot of the implications that could be drawn from Tohya being the author of those episodes. It seems like a shame to lose that, but we'll see what happens.
Personally I like that they're written from Sayo/Beatrice... but now I wonder who's playing Lambda's role here. Who wrote Ep 5, the loveless game? Ikuko? Tohya? Someone else? Theoretically Ep 6 should be authored by Tohya to fit with the fact it was written by Battler... so it can be Ep 5 was written by Ikuko who had read Sayo's confession but didn't understand her heart.

There's to wonder something. This means the part about the Teaparty post the slaughtering in the golden room and that's based on Ep 4 is likely fictional... unless Kyrie was an accomplice, she was told about that plan and decided to use it for her own purposes?

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If the text even remotely resembles the narration, Maria couldn't possibly have been the narrator of any of those episodes. Unless we're seeing a complete rewrite, I have to assume Battler was always intended as the protagonist/detective. And that would kinda make more sense anyway given Yasu's objectives and the fact that Maria would know more about what was going on.

That still doesn't explain why Yasu would sign her message bottles as Maria, but the mere fact that she did so doesn't suddenly mean Maria would've also been the narrator. The stories are clearly works of fiction anyway.
Honestly, at this point I don't know what to think and what we're supposed to believe. Ep 1 seemed to imply the narrator in the messages was Maria and Ep 4 seemed to confirm this but whoever read the episodes have the feeling is Battler.
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Old 2014-04-23, 11:37   Link #34387
GoldenLand
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Ouch, it's harsh seeing Kanon and Shannon kill Jessica and George (in the bottle stories). Though we already knew they were the ones who did it.

Interesting that Yasu appears to have written more eps than thought. It's a nice way to separate the question and answer arcs.
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Old 2014-04-23, 14:56   Link #34388
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Spoiler for me responding to a bunch of stuff:


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Unless Ikuko found Yasu and Battler but Yasu was mortally wounded and managed only to tell her her story before dying as some sort of atonement? Or message to pass to Battler?
Doesn't that really long article from the manga about the culprit say something like "her body that was blown away that day"? I took that to imply much more strongly than before that Yasu had simply died (for realsies) that day?


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That still doesn't explain why Yasu would sign her message bottles as Maria, but the mere fact that she did so doesn't suddenly mean Maria would've also been the narrator. The stories are clearly works of fiction anyway.
Sometimes, I think the signature from Maria was just a shout out to Higurashi that just didn't pan out as well as he'd have hoped. A logical oversight, or something.
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Old 2014-04-23, 15:19   Link #34389
Renall
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Maria actually maybe could have been the narrator of Turn. The First Twilight is dedicated to her, she has that scene at the end with Rosa, and so on and so forth. The problem is that if that's true then the entire board narrative of Turn is some kind of alternate reading because it comes from Battler's POV instead of Maria's. While it might be plausible to believe that some parts of the stories/Forgeries weren't included in the full package we're presented, I don't think the entire narrative perspective was changed.
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Old 2014-04-23, 16:19   Link #34390
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I unfortunately can't remember where, but I'm almost certain it was confirmed in the manga that the adults had no part in the EP3 First Twilight, and had fallen for Yasu's elaborate "send them running everywhere while I hide" charade. At the very least, such a trick wouldn't have been necessary if there was an accomplice among the adults.

I'm really hoping the manga elaborates on whatever was going on between Yasu and Eva later on in the arc, though.
Honestly I don't remember such confirmation but Our confession showed that people who take order from Yasu don't necessarily work all together or know the full plan. Krauss and Natsuhi were blackmailed/bribed into being accomplices and thought the servants too were blackmailed but actually the servants were just bribed into taking part to a game.

In Ep 5 we've again Natsuhi blackmailed into obeying to Yasu and the adults bribed into doing what she suggest but of course Natsuhi and the adults aren't in the same team.

My feeling in Ep 3 is that Natsuhi and Krauss might have been blackmailed/bribed again and form... let's call it Team Yasu 1, the servants and Nanjo form Team Yasu 2, Eva and possibly Hideyoshi form Team Yasu 3 (if Eva had a hinch Nanjo cooperated with Yasu in killing George or that Shannon killed him she might have killed both herself so she probably was contacted by Yasu only through phone). Rosa might form Team Yasu 4 (she found the gold but this didn't stop things... so this can mean she was bribed as well as Eva?). Maria is Team Yasu 5 (she's not bribed with money and she believes in magic so she probably doesn't think to a prank but to real magic?).

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Indeed, and I more or less agree.
My point is the accusation of "Krauss regrets not being nice to his siblings" is "sugarcoating", and somehow very suspicious. Is it also "sugarcoating" when Rosa and Maria get along, even though we know most of their relationship was bad?
I'm trying to draw a line of difference between the occasional positive traits of a character (Kyrie gives Rosa legit parenting advice, consolation, claims they should hang out more), which is something we get a lot of, and Battler's EP8 "We love each other 100% of the time and have no problems whatsoever", which comes aff as hard to believe as being true.
Well, I fear the point becomes mooth as the last developments of the manga revealed that Ep 3 was written by Yasu who probably didn't feel like sugarcoating... even if the adults in the mystery side of Ep 3 & 4 seems much more gentle and close than in Ep 1 & 2.

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Yeah, that's all true. I'm not saying the kids would NEVER be able to kill someone or attack someone ; I'm sure that's possible. Just that it would require the proper motivation / a sensible build-up, based on what we know about them. I think we agree more than we don't.

I'm also not saying, for example, that Eva would bump off Krauss at ANY given opportunity. Obviously, he's lived at least 50 years without Eva trying to invite him into the suspiciously isolated woods with an axe behind her back. Just that, a believable build up to violence for Eva is ... different from what it'd be for, say, George.
Yes, we probably are more on the same line that it seems.
And... LOL, I don't know why but I can't seriously see the scene of Eva waiting for Krauss with an axe behind his back. I guess I really don't think Eva's the type to do so...

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
But he was wrong, that's the thing!
Not even in my personal opinion, but just outright wrong. The only reason he couldn't solve EP2 despite it being fairly straightforward is because he insisted on blaming 19th Person X, and he had to overcome that delusion to make any progress at all. Even if EP3, he's willing to accuse Eva since the evidence and narrative single her out, and he comes at least a little closer to what Beato wanted him to get at.
Well, it's really easy for us to accuse A or B but for him those are his relatives and other people for whom he felt a certain fondness. Years of knowing them as good people who never went around murdering anyone would make look like impossible they would just decide to go on a murdering rampage that year.
The only one he could suspect a little more easier are Gohda and Kanon, as he just met them... but he develops a liking for them basically as soon as he met them so he sort of reject the idea (also probably suspecting them would make suspicious the whole group of the servants, not just the two newcomers).

Battler isn't the only one who feels so. George and Jessica won't doubt at all of Shannon and Kanon and they too won't be able to solve anything.

We see the tales from a mystery perspective, where extra people couldn't exist. In real life someone could have gone to Rokkenjima unnotice prior to the storm (Kuwabata previously used to go to Kuwadorian unknown to the other Ushiromiya so we know it's not impossible), hide in... let's say the church when the storm started or in any other place even one of the many rooms of the house and start killing.

Natsuhi always had the habit of having the servants close the door because she feared someone could get in the house without them noticing so for the Ushiromiya someone unauthorized wandering on the island isn't weird. In Ep 1 Natsuhi is sure that the killer is an extra person until a letter appear in the study and she believes the servants and Maria are involved.

So let's not be too severe with Battler. No one solves the murders and who suspects of others often choses a target among the people he didn't like (Natsuhi believes it was Eva who dirtied her door).

I also wouldn't say Battler is completely wrong. Humans aren't completely black or white. Battler sees the nice side of many people who exists, along with the dark one.

Eva was a playful and funny aunt and a loving wife and mother. She also happened to have a horrible relation with Krauss that was made worse by Krauss' actions and her own need for money.

But what really matters is if she hadn't been put in a certain situation probably she would have never shot him in Ep 3. She wasn't an inborn killer, a cold person that callously would get rid of who's on her way, family and enemies alike. Like everyone however could do wrong stuffs.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
But it's still ... a farce, really. Kinzo is dead. Eva and Krauss never made up. Rosa and Maria never made up. Rudolf ... ... may or may not have mentioned the baby thing, that's harder to judge. Battler wanted Ange to remember a certain side of her relatives, and also give their pieces narrative closure, I guess.

Considering the relatives all died in 1986, Ryu probably didn't have many routes to closing their plot threads. For the readers, it would perhaps be unsatisfying to spend so long reading about Rosa and not have it get any closure, for example, so the author can hit two birds with one Halloween Party.
It's something that didn't happen, yes. However we can't say it's something that, given the chance, would have never happened. I guess it had the potential to happen had they survived. Part of it maybe even used to happen in the past (maybe they really had Halloween parties and exchanged presents). The only thing that's an absolute farce is to have Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice around at the same time... but that might be an extra what if to show Yasu that in that happy possibility she could have been accepted as each of her incarnations.

The real problem though is it's presented not as a possibility but as THE truth and Ange can't do nothing but reject it because she's not interested in speculations and memories of prior 1986.
Actually I think warm memories and accepting that the adults weren't monsters but normal people that ended up doing bad things could help her but at the moment what she feels as her need is completely different.

Some pain killers need to be taken on a full stomach. But when you're madly in pain and someone presents you with food and you don't know a full stomach is necessary to eat the painkiller you might reject it and demand the painkiller. Then you'll take it and feel worse than before.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I think we're more in agreement than not. In fact, I think we can assume that the conferences before 1985 (the first one where Kinzo was dead, and nobody needed money desperately yet) were probably very smooth affairs that bounced seamlessly between normal family talk over dinner, and maybe Kinzo inquiring about how much money his kids had made that year (since they seemed to borrow from him semi-often)
Yes, likely those reunions weren't so bad. Maybe Kinzo would even play with the cousins a bit and the adults would act friendly.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
MAN, EP2 is gonna be a BLAST.
I can't wait to start it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Doesn't that really long article from the manga about the culprit say something like "her body that was blown away that day"? I took that to imply much more strongly than before that Yasu had simply died (for realsies) that day?
It does but it claims there was only 1 survivor, Eva, when actually Battler survived to so we'll have to say in which contaxt that sentence was said (all in all though I fear Sayo's dead... logic says she died but my heart is in denial...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Sometimes, I think the signature from Maria was just a shout out to Higurashi that just didn't pan out as well as he'd have hoped. A logical oversight, or something.
Likely it's a reference to Higurashi. I'll wait to judge it to when we'll know what the text say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Maria actually maybe could have been the narrator of Turn. The First Twilight is dedicated to her, she has that scene at the end with Rosa, and so on and so forth. The problem is that if that's true then the entire board narrative of Turn is some kind of alternate reading because it comes from Battler's POV instead of Maria's. While it might be plausible to believe that some parts of the stories/Forgeries weren't included in the full package we're presented, I don't think the entire narrative perspective was changed.
Well, if we consider that Sayo wrote Ep 1-4 it gets really difficult to think Maria signed Ep 3 as... she died pretty early on.
Honestly I don't know what to think about the narrator. So far the only logical conclusion seems that the story we read and the story in the message bottles were different at least in terms of narration... because Ep 4 too confirms the messages were supposed to be written by Maria and not by Battler.

Let's see if the new chapter will clear things up?
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Old 2014-04-23, 17:20   Link #34391
haguruma
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Translation time!!!
Honestly, it really kills me that I don't have the full chapters...I'm just burning to fill everybody in as well, once I have them.

Spoiler for Translation:


On the one hand, wow I wanna be in Japan finally, so I can get this and read it completely and...

On the other hand...wow, this is kinda how I imagined it to have happened, but seeing it actually put to paper makes it kinda even more obvious how insane Sayo was in the end...
Yes, it's over the top, it's crazy, but it is very much in style of mystery stories and you could say that this is also a trope that the story has to fullfill. And honestly, I kinda like it how her whole mindset is put together, even though it makes her a little less of a good guy. Honestly, most of what she said is, at least from her limited perspective, quite true.

But, I didn't find it anywhere that she truly DID write Banquet and Alliance. Yes, stories like these were among her's...but it isn't clearly said that they were her's
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Old 2014-04-23, 18:36   Link #34392
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Translation time!!!
Honestly, it really kills me that I don't have the full chapters...I'm just burning to fill everybody in as well, once I have them.

Spoiler for Translation:


On the one hand, wow I wanna be in Japan finally, so I can get this and read it completely and...

On the other hand...wow, this is kinda how I imagined it to have happened, but seeing it actually put to paper makes it kinda even more obvious how insane Sayo was in the end...
Yes, it's over the top, it's crazy, but it is very much in style of mystery stories and you could say that this is also a trope that the story has to fullfill. And honestly, I kinda like it how her whole mindset is put together, even though it makes her a little less of a good guy. Honestly, most of what she said is, at least from her limited perspective, quite true.

But, I didn't find it anywhere that she truly DID write Banquet and Alliance. Yes, stories like these were among her's...but it isn't clearly said that they were her's
Thank you a lot for the translation! I hope it's okay if I link it so as to share it...
I also hope once you'll be in Japan you won't forget about us and share some of the new stuffs you'll learn!


Well, the point is that the scenes are drawn exactly like the ones in the manga for Banquet and Alliance. Of course the author might have recycled them but it seems a clear hint those were hers as well. Oh well, we'll see if more will be revealed about it...

And now some thoughts on the new stuffs.

Geez, thank you, Genji. I tried to tell myself you couldn't be like that but you're exactly as I fear you were. When someone tells you, I'm desperate and suicidal and I also think to murder the whole family you don't tell them 'sure, go on, I'll lend you a hand' you at least try going with the 'is there anything I can do to help you feel better? By the way, I think the family will have to take a long holiday this year... in a place that's not Rokkenjima...'

Okay, okay, sarcasm aside it's horrible to see Genji being supportive of Sayo in THIS way, expecially when you read short after she wanted to be stopped!

I must track down which was my theory for the rules because... I can't remember it at all!
But I wonder... did Sayo change rule X or it's a mistyping and in the manga they should have written rule Z?

It's nice to know that golden butterflies can be seen even if you're not dead yet but about to.

And it's sad to hear her admit she was used to play with delusions. True but sad.

Her killing over and over reminds of Maria in Ep 4... only she doesn't seem to get the same "peace" as Maria if we can call it "peace"...

LOL, it's kind of fun to hear her thoughts about Kinzo. I guess she didn't share Genji's feelings of letting him rest in peace.

I'm not sure about Gohda... which personal deal did he strike? Gohda seems to be the only one who doesn't know about Kinzo's death... so he's just a worker for Natsuhi...

It's also nice to have confirmation she hid her identity from the accomplices.

Uhm... Maria gets strangled in Ep 3... either this isn't considered desecrating her body or yes, Ep 3 isn't written by her... but really, since the island explodes there's not much point in not desecrating Maria's body as her jaw in the end will be flying around...

I love the meeting with Lambda that's sort of a trasposition of one of the tips. Actually I was mentally complaining it wasn't included in Tsubasa but now I can see why.

In a way she sounds terribly naive. Yeah, I've read this in a mystery book, it surely works. Yes, it's a piece of cake bribe almost all the adults and make them paws.

And terribly desperate in how she wanted to be stopped... and be stopped by Battler. Not George or Jessica. Battler.

And so... in each bottle there was a confession also? The game doesn't really talk about them, were they removed before showing the bottles? That's odd...
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Old 2014-04-23, 20:03   Link #34393
Kirroha
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Genji has always been Genji. He was never a friend. He was loyal to a fault. That's why when she said she wanted to die, he would just agree to help her. Not do what a friend should do - try to convince her otherwise. I think Genji himself was pretty suicidal too after Kinzo's death.

I don't think she included confessions in the message bottles. It's just that the tales she wrote were "supposed" to be confessions IF you can unveil the mysteries within. After all, throughout the tales she wrote, the only culprit could've been Sayo Yasuda.

And I think Maria was strangled by Eva in Ep3 so that she could tell no tales. Ep3 was the one that was usurped by Eva partway through the murders. Eva was killin', Sayo was cleaning up her mess and stakin'.

And thanks so so much for the translations, haguruma. It's really tragic.
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Old 2014-04-23, 22:22   Link #34394
Cao Ni Ma
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The part about the butterflies is interesting but doesn't make complete sense given what we saw in part 2. Rosa never really notices the butterflies till the very end before she dies, but they were there since early in the episode creeping up on her. RK07 mentions that this was a pretty important hint. So is this a revelation that EP2 Rosa wasn't really bribed but was an unwitting accomplice? Does being threatened, like in the Rosa+Battler Ougon story, count as being bribed?
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Old 2014-04-23, 23:09   Link #34395
Kealym
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The part about the butterflies is interesting but doesn't make complete sense given what we saw in part 2. Rosa never really notices the butterflies till the very end before she dies, but they were there since early in the episode creeping up on her. RK07 mentions that this was a pretty important hint. So is this a revelation that EP2 Rosa wasn't really bribed but was an unwitting accomplice? Does being threatened, like in the Rosa+Battler Ougon story, count as being bribed?
Nah, Rosa was definitely a bribed accomplice, it explains pretty much all of her behavior. As far a "hint" with the butterfly that landed on her early in Turn, it probably suggests her meeting with Kinzo was suspicious (since at that point he's still a very viable suspect, himself), or, if you review the scene with Kinzo's death in mind it's rather obvious she lied to give Shannon / Genji alibi's for Jessica's murder.

hagurama, I cannot overstate how thankful I am for the translation. Even for things that we were more or less 99% certain of, that final 1% is a real treasure.

Also, I find it hilarious that at least, thus far, the issue of Ange's exclusion from the conference is going entirely ignored.
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Old 2014-04-23, 23:56   Link #34396
GreyZone
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uhm... when did Yasu write Banquet after finding out that Eva survived? I don't think she had much time for that until dying...

And I hope this is no "she accidently guessed right that Eva may be the only survivor". That would be a bit too much of a "coincidence", even for the Umineko scale.


And so we another point that makes the RandomStrangerIkuko theory retroactively less likely, although it was seemingly the most likely possibility until now...
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Old 2014-04-24, 04:39   Link #34397
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Given the reveal that it was more or less what actually happened, though, now I'm not so sure.
It's still a matter of framing, and this is going back all the way to Ryukishi's Onikakushi-hen, in a state of excitment, anger, or fear a confused person can mistake even the kindest gesture for an act of malice.
I'm not saying anybody in the EP7 Teaparty was kind, but at least some of them were making valid points. Krauss IS the one to go to if you want to exchange the gold slowly and without much hassle, Eva SHOULD have gone to jail for what was probably an accident, but we don't know what the people saying these words were actually thinking since it is highly suggested that we are seeing the events through a 3rd person personal perspective of Eva.

Quote:
Wow that sounds amazingly rude.
The wikipedia article is just a blurb but I was hope it was panned at the time at least just for being tactless.
Well, I've seen it and it is mostly a schlocky horror-thriller...almost on a level of tactlesness with Umineko plot-elements like the EP7 Teaparty. It didn't gain a wide audience, these kind of movies rarely do, but they still have a certain audience...just like many of the true crime TV shows do. Yes, we try to excuse many of these shows by saying, "they are trying to include us in the investigation, in case we have any hints or clues," but, looking at the way they are set and framed, they are clearly also meant to titillate.
Or look at a series like Unsolved Mysteries, that showed (besides supernatural occurences) also murders, abductions and serial killings. Or even shows like Law & Order or Cold Case, which took some of their inspiration from current headlines to heighten the feeling of "authenticity" to the crimes they described.

But as Renall already pointed out, the only unrealistic thought is that anything would ever stop the Witch Hunters. What is likely though is that their interest would die down to a certain degree over time.

Quote:
I unfortunately can't remember where, but I'm almost certain it was confirmed in the manga that the adults had no part in the EP3 First Twilight, and had fallen for Yasu's elaborate "send them running everywhere while I hide" charade. At the very least, such a trick wouldn't have been necessary if there was an accomplice among the adults.
At least the EP8 manga says that none of people who discovered the First Twilight had any hand in murdering people or creating the locked room scenario. I still think that EP3 was not in the closest sense written by Yasu as a tale like Legend and Turn.
EP3 actually looks much more like a weird EP5'esque scenario. It is either Eva doing the killings and Yasu trying to make them look like her's in order to make Battler find his way to her, or it is Yasu doing the killings and using Eva as a cover-up. Both is kinda supported by the narrative, but especially EP3 doesn't really fit into the rules explained in Confession right now.
  • Since Rudolph and Kyrie don't die early on, are they accomplicees?
  • The witch illusion doesn't even come into existence
  • The epitaph is solved yet she does not stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Thank you a lot for the translation! I hope it's okay if I link it so as to share it...
I also hope once you'll be in Japan you won't forget about us and share some of the new stuffs you'll learn!
Of course I will share all that stuff. Also working on something else related to EP8.

Quote:
Well, the point is that the scenes are drawn exactly like the ones in the manga for Banquet and Alliance. Of course the author might have recycled them but it seems a clear hint those were hers as well. Oh well, we'll see if more will be revealed about it...
Well, in that scene she is talking about how there are all these tricks (and the page-break implies that she mentions more on the pages we don't see) and she doesn't even know which ones to pick for each story. So if Ikuko actually found this message bottle "Confession of the Golden Witch" or it is something that "Battler" knew, then they could have used these tricks in their stories just as well.

Though we'll have to wait till more is revealed, since this would create a slight inconsistency with Battler/Tohya realizing the truth during EP5. Unless of course Ikuko is a real bitch and didn't even show him that confession when creating Banquet and Alliance.

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I'm not sure about Gohda... which personal deal did he strike? Gohda seems to be the only one who doesn't know about Kinzo's death... so he's just a worker for Natsuhi...
I think that it's meant in a way that he was hired for the precise reason to become Natsuhi's knight with her as the queen in her own game of chess against the family members. It's sadly an element that was never much elaborated upon after EP1 and 2 (and in both one of the two dies First Twilight). Still, if we now consider the story of "he was hired by Natsuhi in order to have a servant she could trust, because all the others obeyed Kinzo", with the knowledge we have it tells us that she hired him exactly because she didn't trust her co-conspirators.
Sayo herself admits that Gohda is a petty villain without much thought to the whole thing beyond fame and riches.

Quote:
In a way she sounds terribly naive. Yeah, I've read this in a mystery book, it surely works. Yes, it's a piece of cake bribe almost all the adults and make them paws.
And that is probably exactly what went wrong.
We see her practically breaking down in tears when writing about killing George and Jessica. She is so delusional about the idea that it would definitely be Battler who solves the epitaph...
But I think the biggest mistake she made was, thinking that the person arriving at the underground VIP room would definitely turn off the bomb and let everybody survive. That was the biggest inconsistency in her own reasoning.

And so... in each bottle there was a confession also? The game doesn't really talk about them, were they removed before showing the bottles? That's odd...[/QUOTE]
What she meant was, like already said here, every one of these stories is a confession and as long as you follow the rules she created you will arrive at the culprit Yasuda Sayo/Beatrice/Shkannon.
She also apparently wrote (have to check that in the actual manga) at the start of Confession that this was the one bottle that she never wanted to reach the shore. Yet it kinda fits the theme of her roulette again, to toss in an obvious confession as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Also, I find it hilarious that at least, thus far, the issue of Ange's exclusion from the conference is going entirely ignored.
Yeah, I also hope that this will be mentioned at some point. I mean, maybe it is among the missing pages.

Also, I found Sayo's choice of words interesting. When she said she wanted to die with the whole household, she spoke of shinjuu with her whole household. Shinjuu is a concept that fans of Japanese period dramas will have definitely encountered before (anybody else I'm not sure).
It is written with the kanji for heart and center and in it's other (more archaic) interpretation it meant "one's true mind and devotion". Shinjuu is often translated today as lover's suicide (since that is how it often appears in plays) but there is also the Shinjuu of a whole family. This often happens when family heads see themselves unable to face hardships or overcome troubles, so they prefer to be with their loved ones in death.

So Sayo basically says that the murders are her cover-up for her actual plan, being together with her family in death.
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Old 2014-04-24, 04:46   Link #34398
Captain Bluebeard
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Translation time!!!
Honestly, it really kills me that I don't have the full chapters...I'm just burning to fill everybody in as well, once I have them.

Spoiler for Translation:


On the one hand, wow I wanna be in Japan finally, so I can get this and read it completely and...

On the other hand...wow, this is kinda how I imagined it to have happened, but seeing it actually put to paper makes it kinda even more obvious how insane Sayo was in the end...
Yes, it's over the top, it's crazy, but it is very much in style of mystery stories and you could say that this is also a trope that the story has to fullfill. And honestly, I kinda like it how her whole mindset is put together, even though it makes her a little less of a good guy. Honestly, most of what she said is, at least from her limited perspective, quite true.

But, I didn't find it anywhere that she truly DID write Banquet and Alliance. Yes, stories like these were among her's...but it isn't clearly said that they were her's

Wow, I can't thank you enough for the translations!!!

Only this makes me look forward to the EP8 manga all the more. The material is so juicy, and the illustrations gorgeous as always! And finally, we see Yasu treated as a real villain.

But... um... I know jjblue beat me to it but I just want to say.... Genji!!! Oh Genji! What the hell??? Yes he is to blame for screwing up her life in every possible way, but that's no reason to do the same thing to the entire family and even screw up Yasu some more! Geez..... If there is an award for the worst and most convenient for the plot characterisation, then I nominate Genji! I'm sure he's going to get it!

I also really like the hint about the golden butterflies, but I suddenly feel stupid for not thinking too deeply about them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
EP3 actually looks much more like a weird EP5'esque scenario. It is either Eva doing the killings and Yasu trying to make them look like her's in order to make Battler find his way to her, or it is Yasu doing the killings and using Eva as a cover-up. Both is kinda supported by the narrative, but especially EP3 doesn't really fit into the rules explained in Confession right now.
  • Since Rudolph and Kyrie don't die early on, are they accomplicees?
  • The witch illusion doesn't even come into existence
  • The epitaph is solved yet she does not stop
I think that, playing by her own rules, she would have to stick with Eva if she chose to kill everyone and keep the gold to herself. Eva probably kills Rosa and Maria when the first threatens to inform the family about the gold being found. Eva's shock when she hears about Rosa going outside could very well be becaue she's afraid Rosa might interfere with her gold. And since by that point Yasu is, uhm... furniture, she'd have to obey Eva and lend a hand.

I also like the idea of Rudolf and Kyrie being the accomplices, but then having to be disposed of when the gold is solved and the ceremony stops.
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Old 2014-04-24, 05:16   Link #34399
GoldenLand
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
"And Gohda who tried to get personal gain out of striking a deal with Natsuhi

It would be better for all people connected to the house of Ushiromiya to cease existing"
Gohda got hired for a job on the island, what a bastard! He deserves to die for that!

At least that can be explained a bit better by the next line as Yasu being so nuts at this point that she thought everyone connected to the Ushiromiyas should just die.

I'm going to have to read that translation a bunch of times more. It's a bit hard for it to sink in. There's definitely a blurring of reality and the bottle stories going on there. She wrote her stories in a frenzied state, certainly, but how much of it she brought into reality or was capable of bringing into reality I don't know. She does sound villainous there.

It does look as if Genji really was AOK with "supporting" Yasu no matter how suicidal and crazy and in need of genuine support she was. What is it with him? It could be loyalty on his part, but maybe with Kinzo dead, Genji didn't really want to live either and no longer cared about anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
"You two would gladly sacrifice yourself to my desire, right....?"
Daaaamn. That sounds (without checking the spoiler pics) as if she's talking about Jessica and George. What a thing to say about the people she's in love with. So that's how it was justified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
"If by any chance my beloved someone would solve the epitaph and through it inherit the headship...

I would devote my life to that miracle...
I would throw away all my other emotions and would live forever at that person's side...
and I would stop the murders and confess all of my sins

Such a result, whatever end it might bring, I could accept it...
For this would surely be my punishment."
Looking at that in a certain way, that sounds as if she's planning to become like Genji. Someone who would accept anything, throw away all of her emotions, and so on. (Genji = one of the world's worst role models) There's more to it than that, certainly, and maybe she's thinking that a happily ever after with one of her love interests could theoretically happen, but the way she phrased that does give me pause to think.
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Old 2014-04-24, 08:14   Link #34400
haguruma
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
If there is an award for the worst and most convenient for the plot characterisation, then I nominate Genji! I'm sure he's going to get it!
Well, it is not his position to judge his mistress' decision what to do with the household since he is only furniture. It's not like this was not foreshadowed more than enough.
But yes, Genji is a horrible human being for giving up on life. I think the problem is that he himself doesn't believe in anything getting better from this point onwards, so he will just serve as a tool for the person he screwed up, just like he served as a tool for the person he loved...

Quote:
I also really like the hint about the golden butterflies, but I suddenly feel stupid for not thinking too deeply about them.
Yeah, the damn clocks were all over the place. I checked and the 30min rule actually is in place as far as I can see. It'd be kinda cool to go over the first 4 Episodes again and look out for these elements.

Quote:
I think that, playing by her own rules, she would have to stick with Eva if she chose to kill everyone and keep the gold to herself.
But what doesn't make sense here is, this wouldn't be the story Sayo would write for her message bottles. She wrote Yasuda Sayo, the Golden Witch of Rokkenjima as the culprit of her tales in order to be found, tried and judged, either by the person she loved or a person who understands her. If she actually considered a story where somebody was to ursurp her plan...that wouldn't make much sense thematically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
There's more to it than that, certainly, and maybe she's thinking that a happily ever after with one of her love interests could theoretically happen, but the way she phrased that does give me pause to think.
I actually stumbled over a page I failed to translate
This seems to be the final page of the Confession-arc:
Spoiler for Translation:


It really paints a sad picture of a woman who got so caught up in her delusions that she became unable to think of anything else, she couldn't stand one more day without thinking of putting an end to this horrible family...and looking at her life that is really kinda tragic since she herself was the one who became unable to see things with love and she knew it.

Last edited by haguruma; 2014-04-24 at 08:28.
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