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Old 2014-05-03, 16:34   Link #34421
theacefrehley
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Quote:
p.15
By switching the breaker I can easily pretend the phones were disabled
The means of communication and the electric system are all under my control
Interesting
So this means the means of communication with the outside were not actually broken.

With this, Kyrie's hurry in EP7 Tea Party to kill everybody, instead of waiting for the bomb to blow everyone, makes some more sense.
She was right to suspect this was the case with the radio/phone.

Spoiler:
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Old 2014-05-03, 21:00   Link #34422
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Sadly I haven't yet gotten my hands on part 1 of CotGW since 2000Yen is a little expensive for my taste (especially since it's only about 40 pages), but at least I have part 2 and 3 complete and will leave you with the translation of both chapters for now. We'll see what more I can do later


For now only this chaper, because I have to go eat something and putting it in a proper format takes time. So see you later and have fun so far. Only 19 days left till the first chapter after Confession...let's hope it involves the Hachijos
I'm really thankful for your translations!

And the new bits make Sayo's condition even sadder.
Genji and the others order her around in the same harsh tone as before...
Not only this shows they weren't that kind with her... or at least not kind in a way she could get... but no one tried to support her or to cover up for her more... or if they did she didn't even perceived it...

And it's horrible how she has to keep everything inside... and everything starts to turn black...

And I suspected they were keeping Kinzo in his room although i was hoping I was wrong because still... keeping a decomposing body in the house... that's so disgusting... I've heard not only the smell is nauseating but it can get so strong it even permeated whoever will get too close... they didn't even had the decency to bury him or burn him...

*sigh* maybe I talk because I come from another culture but this is so... I've no words...

And then Natsuhi played the oh so righteous part when Eva and the others attacked her...

I'm disgusted.

And it's interesting how it's more like it's Jessica who consciously or unconsciously is pushing Shannon in George's arms than Shannon trying to get in them, labelling them as a couple even if they only went out what? Once? Twice?

But I wonder if Jessica understood Shannon liked someone but misunderstood who that person was... so when she believed Shannon was 'taking action' she thought Shannon was much more involved than what she really was.

Her situation is pitiful though. She wants to be loved but the only ones that show her affection are her relatives and so the happiness she feels at receiving love feels wrong because she blames it on Kinzo's genes...

Oh, and it's a nice touch that the tape Jessica handed to Kanon got mentioned. Kanon talked about it in Ep 6 but I don't remember it being mentioned previously so it felt a bit weird.

It's also good to hear confirmation about how part of her problem was that since she had never experienced being accepted for who she truly was she couldn't imagine a future for herself.

And picturing little Sayo who's so happy because Battler is coming back... in a way it seems that even if Shannon says her love for George is the strongest she still favour Battler over George. Little Sayo called him the one they love the most and denies that Shannon loves George the most and even Beato insists that Shannon was the happier when she heard of Battler's return.

And *sighs* she really ended up on trapping herself, although she probably couldn't see it at first. She must really hate her body.

And Genji really... you're the worst.

Uhm... I'm sort of surprised by how Kumasawa and Nanjo seems to have been willing to join in without even wanting money back. But I'm not sure what Nanjo means with 'the compassion she had for them'?

Still... apart from humouring her in this it doesn't seem like they supported her a lot... and agreeing to a mystery murder game like the ones Sayo planned is just... sort of sick. I mean didn't they realize the pain and the fear they would push on the other unwilling participants?

And somehow even if it had been all a game I don't think Natsuhi and Co would have forgiven them. And while for Kumasawa it might be okay to quit her work as she's old enough Nanjo might have troubles. So hum... it feels like there's something I'm missing. Or do they though the fact they were accomplices with Natsuhi and Krauss was insurance good enough there wouldn't be repercussions?

Well, at least we know that Nanjo thought of a game at first and that Shannon planned to trick him into making him believe she wasn't responsible for the murders... but it's still hard to believe they would keep on playing when the first twilight would turn out to be a real murder.

Expecially in Ep 1. It would be a good moment to insist on quitting instead than pretending that Shannon is also dead.

And have I already mentioned Genji is the worst?

Also interesting how this confirms the part of the tip over Gohda's past false.

LOL to Sayo blatantly telling Natsuhi isn't very smart and has no use as accomplice.

And hum... Rudolf and Kyrie as acting murderers? Scary... I wonder if they were really bribed in Prime and the plan went messed up as they didn't understand the game was called off...

It's nice to have the solution for so many tricks.

But also it's good to hear of her horror at following this route, to how she wanted to be stopped. Honestly I've my doubts she would have managed to go along with her plan even if she hadn't been stopped.

And, interesting enough it seems she really want to be stopped by Battler and smile in the end with Battler, not with George. But she really didn't understand that when seeing a gruesome murder for real he wouldn't go exactly into investigator mode... or maybe she did as in her tales he's not exactly depicted as such. Battler's investigations are really minimal... He's mostly obeying orders of not touching, not looking, not going around and so on...

... I'd like to know the difference between the messages Sayo sent and the episodes we read. Although it seems they had a lot written in them I've the feeling they didn't have all we read. But maybe it's just me.

Anyway, thanks again for your translations!
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Old 2014-05-03, 22:59   Link #34423
theacefrehley
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
... I'd like to know the difference between the messages Sayo sent and the episodes we read. Although it seems they had a lot written in them I've the feeling they didn't have all we read. But maybe it's just me.
I always had the impression the bottle stories were like Bern's 'purple truth game'.
Short, blunt and not much inner monologues like Battler has, that fills quite a lot of time. I mean, you can't stuff 300 pages in a bottle, can you?
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Old 2014-05-03, 23:06   Link #34424
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According to EP1's epilogue, the contents of the message bottle was just "one thin piece of notebook paper crammed with words". So it's probably just stuff like what's on the character sheet, like XXXX, sacrifice for first twilight, offered up as a key, blah blah
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Old 2014-05-03, 23:14   Link #34425
Ayu-ayu
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Looking at the three rules mentioned, shouldn't the last one be "Rule Z"? Just trying to be sure here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post

Rule X: The accomplicee is different every time.
The adults are all in financial trouble.
It is easy to bribe them.

Rule Y: Lies agreed on by everyone can be depicted as actually happening.
In a locked room situation anything goes.
People who observe the golden butterflies are either accomplicees or dead.
Those who were not bribed can only see the golden butterflies in the timespace of 30 minutes before their death.
From that point onwards I began to write down plans for a crime as if I had gone mad.

(...)

Rule X: Please, somebody stop me!
Kinzo said, solving the epitaph equals a miracle
So if I were to entrust it to a bet on the magic of...miracles
The one to solve the epitaph would arrive at this room, switch off the bomb and survive
I want to gamble with this chance as well.
If by any chance my beloved someone would solve the epitaph and through it inherit the headship...
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Old 2014-05-03, 23:52   Link #34426
theacefrehley
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
According to EP1's epilogue, the contents of the message bottle was just "one thin piece of notebook paper crammed with words". So it's probably just stuff like what's on the character sheet, like XXXX, sacrifice for first twilight, offered up as a key, blah blah
And if the tales Yasu wrote are really short, like just a few pages long, that could explain how Ange is not part of the story. There's enough time to produce tales without Ange, or rewrite the ones she already had
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Old 2014-05-04, 03:38   Link #34427
haguruma
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Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu View Post
Looking at the three rules mentioned, shouldn't the last one be "Rule Z"? Just trying to be sure here...
I'm also quite sure it's supposed to be Rule Z and it's merely a typo by the typesetter or a thing that got overlooked in editing. It's fairly minor and I'd say it might even be changed for the Tankobon release, as they already did with a few minor things like missing backgrounds or small errors with wrong Kana used in some places. At one point the reading of one of the Kanji is also in reverse on some pages...those are small errors that get overlooked often and especially a sudden Romaji will get by unnoticed if the editor is sufficiently untrained.

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Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
And if the tales Yasu wrote are really short, like just a few pages long, that could explain how Ange is not part of the story. There's enough time to produce tales without Ange, or rewrite the ones she already had
I always assumed so as well. The story basically implies that she wrote all her stories AFTER Battler was announced for the 1986 conference, so that'd be what, maybe a month or so. The manga also shows only a heap of loose papers, like maybe 200 pages and something between at least 8 and 15 bottles, depending which picture you look at. Also the few glimpses we get at her script, it's about as "elaborate" as Our Confession was...so a rather short little story (especially if you take out the "commentary track".

Looking at one of the panels (considering that they are probably accurate) there are about 3-5 pages per bottle...so really nothing much. Especially if you consider that the final score will probably already have taken up one page (for effect).

Also, she wanted to be found, that's why she send out the stories on October 3rd, in case a miracle happens and somebody finds one of them early, they could also come to the island or at least report it.
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Old 2014-05-04, 04:17   Link #34428
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Wow, a million thanks haguruma!!!!

I must say, confession really makes me like Yasu a lot less (because what the hell?), but love her a lot more as a villain!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Also the few glimpses we get at her script, it's about as "elaborate" as Our Confession was...so a rather short little story (especially if you take out the "commentary track".
I get the impression that rather than a story, it was just a little more than a brief announcement of the endgame, like in the credits roll, something like a confession after the crime.

But if that is the case, then what about the Forgeries? Are they just short messages as well, or are they fully fleshed stories? EP6 sure seems to imlpy the latter.
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Old 2014-05-04, 05:12   Link #34429
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I imagine the forgeries are full stories, some of which are based on the brief ones in the message bottle. It would explain Ep 3 a little, as Tohya was just working with the end scroll and filled in the gaps.

Did the mislabeled key trick ever get used? It sounds like they are making it out to be Jessica's Key in Ep 2, and actually right from the start I thought it was suspicious how Ryu emphasised that all the keys looked the same, but I never needed to use that info...
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Old 2014-05-04, 05:12   Link #34430
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
But if that is the case, then what about the Forgeries? Are they just short messages as well, or are they fully fleshed stories? EP6 sure seems to imlpy the latter.
I am kinda imagining the forgeries to be very disparate in their presentation. Like how different movies use different real life murder cases as inspiration but never in the very same way, the same length or the same amount of details.

I suppose the first few forgeries by the Hachijo's were probably only a short story of a few pages, so something like a more elaborate account of what was in the 2 message bottles that were officially found.
If we assume that Ikuko really did find the CotGW bottle and made BotGW from it (which is kinda possible considering that Sayo described the possibility of this modus operandi and also described the locked room in it as her personal pride), then it would have probably only been a short story.
In the VN she also says to Tohya that she's only dabbling and doing it for fun (since she got rejected) and he mentions that he went through her story in only a few hours...so I doubt it'd be something like a whole 300-400 page manuscript. More something like a 30-40 page short story.

Some forgeries will probably fully drop the whole "this is ACTUALLY REAL" angle and go for a more creative approach, since people will get tired of hearing the "true story" schtick for the hundreth time.
But hey...they even sell the Texas Chainsaw Massacre remake as "based on a true story" and some people are swallowing that.

Also, if we consider that Ange might have actually gone to Ikuko's house and read a new script, going by gameboard rules it should have at least been possible for her to read it in that time, so it's unlikely it was more than a short story.

To be fair, short stories are EXTREMLY COMMON on the Japanese market, especially in the crime, mystery, and horror department...so I think that's what they are

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Did the mislabeled key trick ever get used? It sounds like they are making it out to be Jessica's Key in Ep 2, and actually right from the start I thought it was suspicious how Ryu emphasised that all the keys looked the same, but I never needed to use that info...
The manga depicts the murder in the garden shed during EP4 for this:
Spoiler for Solution for the Garden Shed Murder:


Jessica's room is constructed with Shannon's master key, since she only needed to leave Kanon's master key in the room.

It is also revealed that the food in the chapel during EP2 was poisoned, that Shannon called Dr. Nanjo in the guesthouse during EP3 and made him forward the call to George (who then went to the mansion and was shot by her).
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Old 2014-05-04, 08:28   Link #34431
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I am kinda imagining the forgeries to be very disparate in their presentation. Like how different movies use different real life murder cases as inspiration but never in the very same way, the same length or the same amount of details.

I suppose the first few forgeries by the Hachijo's were probably only a short story of a few pages, so something like a more elaborate account of what was in the 2 message bottles that were officially found.
If we assume that Ikuko really did find the CotGW bottle and made BotGW from it (which is kinda possible considering that Sayo described the possibility of this modus operandi and also described the locked room in it as her personal pride), then it would have probably only been a short story.
In the VN she also says to Tohya that she's only dabbling and doing it for fun (since she got rejected) and he mentions that he went through her story in only a few hours...so I doubt it'd be something like a whole 300-400 page manuscript. More something like a 30-40 page short story.
Yes, that's way more likely. And it's possible that we get the story told by Battler's point of view because when Tohya read them in a way he was doing that through Battler's eyes so his mind was consciously or unconsciously filling the gaps with memories, explanations and opinion Battler had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The manga depicts the murder in the garden shed during EP4 for this:
Spoiler for Solution for the Garden Shed Murder:


Jessica's room is constructed with Shannon's master key, since she only needed to leave Kanon's master key in the room.
*sigh* At the time I came up with another solution for the garden shed but well, whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It is also revealed that the food in the chapel during EP2 was poisoned, that Shannon called Dr. Nanjo in the guesthouse during EP3 and made him forward the call to George (who then went to the mansion and was shot by her).
So the adults began eating? Without waiting for the kids? Serves you right guys for starting a party without them.

So... hum... Shannon called Nanjo who handed the call to George or Nanjo just told George that Shannon was alive and had called him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Wow, a million thanks haguruma!!!!

I must say, confession really makes me like Yasu a lot less (because what the hell?), but love her a lot more as a villain!!!
LOL, for me it works in the reverse, the more I read the more I like her. But maybe that's because the more I read the more I'm persuaded she wouldn't have been able to follow her plan of murdering people.

I see her as someone going through the 5 stages of griefs. When she started writing she was at the second stage but as she claims she wants to be stopped I think she has moved to the third and soon she'll be at the forth. If she had had the time to reach the fifth she would have probably dropped the idea entirely.
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Old 2014-05-04, 08:46   Link #34432
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Did the mislabeled key trick ever get used? It sounds like they are making it out to be Jessica's Key in Ep 2, and actually right from the start I thought it was suspicious how Ryu emphasised that all the keys looked the same, but I never needed to use that info...
This was the conclusion I came to. As Haguruma says, the servant's key could have easily been used, which brings something up I have been scratching my head over (this is quite hard to explain):

If the perpetrator put a fake key in the room, and could have used the servant's key, it gives the impression that either they were trying to put suspicion on the servants (which is odd since Yasu is a servant). Or that they were trying to make us think they were trying to put suspicion on the servants, so we would not suspect the servants... arrgh!

So we have one or more conclusions to gain from this:

1) The perpetrator is not a servant. Or was a servant trying to put suspicion on themselves (considering that this is a Beatrice' game, this is possible)

In writing this I realised that:

2) The perpetrator needed Jessica's key for later on when the all the master keys would be given to Rosa in order to perform the 4th, 5th and 6th twilights.

I would love if anyone could suggest alternatives. I may wrong about Jessica's key being able to act as a master key (the labeling could have been switched around, so we don't know what key is a master key and which is any other key).
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Old 2014-05-05, 07:25   Link #34433
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The confession made me like Yasu's character even more. Can't wait to buy this once Yen Press translates EP8.

Shame we don't have this in VN. Maybe Ryukishi is interested in Episode 9 with just this confession. I'd welcome that idea with open arms.
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Old 2014-05-05, 08:10   Link #34434
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It's really disappointing (and fun, of course) how much better the manga seems to be compared to the VN. I really like the emphasis we have on Yasu and her suffering. Much easier to understand her. I just bought the entire ep 1-3 manga from Amazon. I plan on buying the next Episodes too.. Hope Yen Press translates Chiru too.

Can someone explain what she means with the telephone though (In order to make it seem like it was disconnected). I didn't quite understand that part.
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Old 2014-05-05, 10:06   Link #34435
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Can someone explain what she means with the telephone though (In order to make it seem like it was disconnected). I didn't quite understand that part.
Often phones (or at least the system) are connected to a circuit breaker as well, which means, if you switch it off then it appears as if the phones were all dead when in fact that can be turned on again for convenience. That's why she also said that not only all communication systems but also all electrical systems are in her hand.

This is also why some people said that it explains a little bit better why Kyrie would not be that stupid in killing people before the bomb went off (at least if she already killed at least one person) because the chance to call for help IS there and she was right to suspect that.

Yeah, I think we all agree that the manga is finally delivering the finale that Umineko deserved back then. I also love how the Confession chapters are weaving the whole spider and butterfly theme back into the narrative, with Yasu seeing herself as a spider caught in her own web and her thought of becoming free by abandoning her boy/killing herself being symbolized by a butterfly.

I'm also really looking forward to the next EP7 chapter in a week, since I suppose it will not only contain the EP2 part but also at least EP3 and I am kinda still wondering about some of those parts (though Confession made it pretty clear that in the first 5 Episodes it is always Yasu).
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Old 2014-05-05, 17:48   Link #34436
Renall
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I actually... don't agree, regarding the finale, at least so far. I'm more disappointed in the ending now than I was before. If anything, I think the moral is even darker, more pointless, more cynical, and more worthy of condemnation, unless he's holding something major back to shake everything up. I also tend to think the characterization has gone off the rails to the point of finally - in this tale of witches and locked room mysteries - breaking my suspension of disbelief. It's almost like Ryukishi was afraid to tip his hand with respect to Prime because he thought some people wouldn't buy into it, and I completely don't. I'd go so far as to say his conception of Prime as it seems to exist is basically less realistic than the in-universe fictions, and that destroys everything for me.

For example: I grasped by the end of ep7 that Yasu's life sucked. I could understand that. Conclusions could be drawn about her state of mind but ambiguity remained as to how much of it was real and how much of it was embellished, and how that might've influenced her actions. The manga has gone too far in that direction, putting her in some kind of Dickensian Hell where everything in the universe conspires to spit in her face and stomp all over everything she has ever wanted or been or done. In such a situation, why wouldn't you give up? It prevents any purchase into the whole "she couldn't see the way out" tragedy because there wasn't ever a way out if her life (and the world) really did suck that bad. It's just... too much. I can no longer accept even the remotest plausibility of her character and can no longer empathize. The ambiguity allowed me to read in humanizing interpretations, but at this point it's just kind of silly and I can no longer convince myself it isn't. The alleged behavior of the adults is the same way; they behave more rationally in the stories than they supposedly do "in reality." Genji goes from a cipher to a completely ridiculous monster. It goes on and on and none of it in the second half of the ep8 manga has actually deepened my appreciation for the characters like it did in the first half.

And all this to say... what, exactly? That's really the last stroke and the manga's last real shot at making something of the ending that isn't just a cynical shrug. The way it's building up, it makes Battler's speech about living look like deliberate mockery of his optimism, but I have trouble believing that would've been put in there if it didn't mean something. But in the context of all the new manga information it just seems like the conclusion is something akin to "life sucks, people are terrible, there is no point and no escape, and anyone who claims that people have a better nature is either a dumbass or a fraud." I want to think that's not how it will actually end, and since it isn't over yet there's obviously a fair bit left to show, but at the moment I'm decidedly down on it.

Unpopular opinions are hardly uncommon with me, I realize, and I'm not by any means saying I necessarily prefer the VN ending. They're both just... not very good, for different reasons. The only real possibility of salvaging things is that the manga isn't over yet, so it could just be building up all this absurdity for some greater end. If it is, though, it's going to take one hell of a refutation to get me back in line. The only reason I haven't written Yasu off entirely is because I've always been pretty sure she couldn't really go through with what she believed herself capable of doing, but I need to see that. Otherwise driving her to the ludicrous brink of suffering means nothing more than it did before in the VN, where she was already suffering plenty. It's tragedy porn and I'm not buying into it.
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Old 2014-05-05, 18:58   Link #34437
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I actually... don't agree, regarding the finale, at least so far. I'm more disappointed in the ending now than I was before. If anything, I think the moral is even darker, more pointless, more cynical, and more worthy of condemnation, unless he's holding something major back to shake everything up. I also tend to think the characterization has gone off the rails to the point of finally - in this tale of witches and locked room mysteries - breaking my suspension of disbelief. It's almost like Ryukishi was afraid to tip his hand with respect to Prime because he thought some people wouldn't buy into it, and I completely don't. I'd go so far as to say his conception of Prime as it seems to exist is basically less realistic than the in-universe fictions, and that destroys everything for me.

For example: I grasped by the end of ep7 that Yasu's life sucked. I could understand that. Conclusions could be drawn about her state of mind but ambiguity remained as to how much of it was real and how much of it was embellished, and how that might've influenced her actions. The manga has gone too far in that direction, putting her in some kind of Dickensian Hell where everything in the universe conspires to spit in her face and stomp all over everything she has ever wanted or been or done. In such a situation, why wouldn't you give up? It prevents any purchase into the whole "she couldn't see the way out" tragedy because there wasn't ever a way out if her life (and the world) really did suck that bad. It's just... too much. I can no longer accept even the remotest plausibility of her character and can no longer empathize. The ambiguity allowed me to read in humanizing interpretations, but at this point it's just kind of silly and I can no longer convince myself it isn't. The alleged behavior of the adults is the same way; they behave more rationally in the stories than they supposedly do "in reality." Genji goes from a cipher to a completely ridiculous monster. It goes on and on and none of it in the second half of the ep8 manga has actually deepened my appreciation for the characters like it did in the first half.

And all this to say... what, exactly? That's really the last stroke and the manga's last real shot at making something of the ending that isn't just a cynical shrug. The way it's building up, it makes Battler's speech about living look like deliberate mockery of his optimism, but I have trouble believing that would've been put in there if it didn't mean something. But in the context of all the new manga information it just seems like the conclusion is something akin to "life sucks, people are terrible, there is no point and no escape, and anyone who claims that people have a better nature is either a dumbass or a fraud." I want to think that's not how it will actually end, and since it isn't over yet there's obviously a fair bit left to show, but at the moment I'm decidedly down on it.

Unpopular opinions are hardly uncommon with me, I realize, and I'm not by any means saying I necessarily prefer the VN ending. They're both just... not very good, for different reasons. The only real possibility of salvaging things is that the manga isn't over yet, so it could just be building up all this absurdity for some greater end. If it is, though, it's going to take one hell of a refutation to get me back in line. The only reason I haven't written Yasu off entirely is because I've always been pretty sure she couldn't really go through with what she believed herself capable of doing, but I need to see that. Otherwise driving her to the ludicrous brink of suffering means nothing more than it did before in the VN, where she was already suffering plenty. It's tragedy porn and I'm not buying into it.
Sorry, maybe I'm just too tired tonight but I'm not sure I've got your point... -_-
You don't like it because Sayo's life is too messed up to be realistic, you don't like it because it's so messed up whatever she does there's no way out, you don't like it because people are poorly characterized or you don't like it because people are monsters? Or all of the above?
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Old 2014-05-05, 18:59   Link #34438
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Nah, Im with you in the general sense that Yasu is a hell of a lot harder to empathize with now than before in part because the manga is making a really good case that she was legitimately insane. But I still prefer the way the manga is handling things over the vn.

What I dont get is how they'll reconcile everything thats going on right now with the magic ending, if they ever will. Nothing good seems to have come out of Maria's/Beatrice way of thinking and having Ange fall into that trap and still treat it as a good thing would be incredibly cynical. Not only that, Ange would be spreading it to others.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Sorry, maybe I'm just too tired tonight but I'm not sure I've got your point... -_-
You don't like it because Sayo's life is too messed up to be realistic, you don't like it because it's so messed up whatever she does there's no way out, you don't like it because people are poorly characterized or you don't like it because people are monsters? Or all of the above?
Its mostly because the characters are acting ways that they are completely unbelievable. No reasonable person will think like this, so reasonable people would not be able to understand why they are doing the things they are doing. So they come off as monsters/insane to us.
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Old 2014-05-05, 19:08   Link #34439
Renall
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Its mostly because the characters are acting ways that they are completely unbelievable. No reasonable person will think like this, so reasonable people would not be able to understand why they are doing the things they are doing. So they come off as monsters/insane to us.
This, plus that we're supposed to believe this is the "true self" of these people, that they took these actions not as characters manipulated for an in-universe writer's ends but as real people, inasmuch as any part of Umineko is "real." Yet they come across as less plausible actors than the pieces of the tales, let alone as comprehensible human beings. We pull away from the fiction to find the reality is actually more ridiculous and implausible, and it doesn't work.

I mean, can anyone say Genji's behavior is even remotely sensible if even half the shit Yasu says he said and did is true? He actually comes across as more human when given less agency within the stories, because at least he isn't acting like a complete asshole for no apparent reason. And story-Genji is a robot, for crying out loud.
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Old 2014-05-05, 19:13   Link #34440
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Nah, Im with you in the general sense that Yasu is a hell of a lot harder to empathize with now than before in part because the manga is making a really good case that she was legitimately insane. But I still prefer the way the manga is handling things over the vn.

What I dont get is how they'll reconcile everything thats going on right now with the magic ending, if they ever will. Nothing good seems to have come out of Maria's/Beatrice way of thinking and having Ange fall into that trap and still treat it as a good thing would be incredibly cynical. Not only that, Ange would be spreading it to others.
Well, I like to think the magic Ange is teaching isn't exactly the one of delusion but the one that would have helped her to accept Eva and to build up a relationship with her, a magic that would have helped her to break the chain of hate, a magic that would have helped her to keep on hoping, on having faith.

But there's to say the magic ending gives me the feeling that it's just a delusion or a tale to let Tohya met his sister again... and let Battler feel at peace... sort of like Ange gave Sakutarou to Maria. The two scenes are interesting as back there Ange wanted Maria to leave the Golden Land and Beatrice (pointless as Ange is dead and it's just wishful thinking she can leave the GL... unless that GL represent more Maria's spirit not resting in peace and Ange trying to give it peace)... while here Ange ends up carrying Battler to the Golden Land and to Beatrice (either she killed Tohya or allowed the Battler inside him to rest in peace).

Not mentioning we've the oddness of Ikuko not looking old...

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This, plus that we're supposed to believe this is the "true self" of these people, that they took these actions not as characters manipulated for an in-universe writer's ends but as real people, inasmuch as any part of Umineko is "real." Yet they come across as less plausible actors than the pieces of the tales, let alone as comprehensible human beings. We pull away from the fiction to find the reality is actually more ridiculous and implausible, and it doesn't work.

I mean, can anyone say Genji's behavior is even remotely sensible if even half the shit Yasu says he said and did is true? He actually comes across as more human when given less agency within the stories, because at least he isn't acting like a complete asshole for no apparent reason. And story-Genji is a robot, for crying out loud.
Oh, I agree with the servants' actions being hard to digest. I'm hoping I'm missing some vital piece of info... like that Genji actually said he was ok with Syao bombing everyone but behind her back he planned to tattle everything out so she could be stopped... and that Kumasawa and Nanjo had no idea what the script for the murder game actually was...
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