[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by m0h

and.. how can you define a good Enigmist/Liar ?

The one who always lie, or the one who mixes good lies with truth?

I can't beleive I'm quoting this guy but...

“If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed”

-Adolf Hitler

Basically what he's saying is if your going to tell a lie you better tell a big lie because a small lie doesn't have the same power when it's used frequently.

Not saying that's what Shkanon is, but it's possible.

Originally Posted by m0h

To me it fits perfectly the concept that every servant ( except Godha, who looks suspiciusly innocent ) has a meta counterpart.
Zepar and Furfur fit perfectly as the Shannon/Kannon meta counterpart.

What they say probably gives hints about motives, the whydunnit

It could also be George and Jessica too you know. The person representing the trap doesn't really have to be one. And I'd think they'd be the two with a whydunnit.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yeah okay so I'll just fall back to the old never-countered standby of it doesn't actually answer anything.

I and chronotrig never agreed that it doesn't actually explain anything and we believe we have countered that argument already.
I don't want to go back there, but let it be known that I refuse to acknowledge that such a statement is true.

@Judoh

That quote from Hitler is a well known fake. You have no fault for that because sadly it's been spread too much. But it's nonetheless something that Hitler never said.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by m0h

And since when TOO BIG OF A HINT is always wrong?
I'm pretty sure Ryukishi turned the chessboard over and thought we wuold not belive him.

Well... Take, for example 07151129. Ryukishi's hints as given in the text and the interviews are:

• Magic square -- No 4x4 magic square starting with those numbers exists, period. I could, of course, try to find all possible magic squares with all possible permutations of those numbers, but what would I get? Eight more digits? And what would I get from those?
• Number connected to a lot of money -- Even though the text mentions the New Year's lottery, Hideyoshi in particular, that lottery uses 6-digit ticket numbers. I got no other ideas for those, you?
• Frequency analysis -- Impossible on such a short ciphertext no matter what Ryukishi says, as we get a 4-letter word with double-digit encoding and it's impossible to encode the entire alphabet into one digit. I actually wrote a program to try all possible Caesar ciphers on it and test them across all known English four letter words, before I realised that the last number would be 29 while there's only 26 Latin letters -- and if a longer alphabet is employed, we have no way of knowing which other symbols to include. Yeah, I can do stupid things too sometimes.

Oh, and that decryption which results in GOLD floating around is silly for the reason that it is possible to use the same algorithm to produce any four letter word in this manner if you use different constants.

I wouldn't take his explicitly declared hints too seriously, no matter how big they are -- if it doesn't fit, it still doesn't fit if Ryukishi himself said it's a hint!

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I and chronotrig never agreed that it doesn't actually explain anything and we believe we have countered that argument already.
I don't want to go back there, but let it be known that I refuse to acknowledge that such a statement is true.

I'm pretty sure you never did.

Anyway, I "trust" the author not to write an absolutely boneheaded plot point in, which is why I am "trusting" him to be lying with a purpose in spreading this information and trying to figure out where he's really going with this.

It's equally possible he's just incapable of writing a satisfactory conclusion and that every Shkanon theory, in all its baffling irrelevance, is right about... whatever it is they claim it to mean but refuse to tell me directly every time I ask them.

[m0h]

Originally Posted by Renall

But it's kind of the big difference between that and other things. The Genji/Ronove and Kumasawa/Virgilia things remain largely inconsequential since so little is developed of their "vessels." Even if true, what exactly does Shkanon do for us?

Let's thing about that. Why Ryukishi put Z&F in just NOW?
Why the only servants that have a locus in the real world are Shannon and Kanon, when the metaparts of Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo are shown?

Can't it be because Shannon and Kanon are in the center part of the story ( they are mixed with the cousins deeper than anyone ) and nearest to Battler?

That "so near but so confusing" always looked suspicious but not strictly related to the Culprit activities...

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I can't beleive I'm quoting this guy but...

You aren't, because, while he indeed said something to this effect, this is not a quote. That phrasing belongs to one Richard Jay Belzer, ...a comedian.

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by Oliver

I wouldn't take his explicitly declared hints too seriously, no matter how big they are -- if it doesn't fit, it still doesn't fit if Ryukishi himself said it's a hint!

But Shkanon would fit.

I have a good question, why does everyone believe that if Shkanontrice was proven to be true it would result in that person being the culprit? I can't see any other reason why people would think this hint to be 'big'. I do think it is a bit obvious but we are 3/4ths our way to the end, so that isn't completely unexpected.

[Jan-Poo]

We have reached a nonsense: It is possible to trust someone to be untrustworthy.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

But Shkanon would fit.

WOULD FIT WHAT!?

It "fits" a problem it created itself. It has no value!

I have a good question, why does everyone believe that if Shkanontrice was proven to be true it would result in the person being the culprit? I can't see any other reason why people would think this hint to be 'big'. I do think it is a bit obvious but we are 3/4ths our way to the end, so that isn't completely unexpected.

Because... there is no reason. Not everyone actually thinks Shkanon being true means Shkanon is the culprit, because... it doesn't imply that. Because it doesn't imply anything about the characters other than that now there are two people who are one person for absolutely no reason.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

We have reached a nonsense: It is possible to trust someone to be untrustworthy.

You've never had a friend you can always trust to be unreliable?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by m0h

Let's thing about that. Why Ryukishi put Z&F in just NOW?
Why the only servants that have a locus in the real world are Shannon and Kanon, when the metaparts of Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo are shown?

Shannon is never actually shown using a locus only Kanon is, but that's just me nitpicking. They're going to be a center piece to the story somehow even if that method isn't Shkanon.

@ Jan-Poo & Oliver: it doesn't really matter what the source is does it? As long as the message is the same.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

We have reached a nonsense: It is possible to trust someone to be untrustworthy.

That's actually not a nonsense at all. Trusting someone to always lie is very, very useful.

[Jan-Poo]

I wouldn't call that "trust" I would call that the very definition of "distrust".

When you distrust someone it doesn't mean you think they'll do something at random, it means you firmly believe they will do something contrary to what a trusted person would do.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

When you distrust someone it doesn't mean you think they'll do something at random, it means you firmly believe they will do something contrary to what a trusted person would do.

Wouldn't that make them extremely predictable though? And knowing someone's behaviour to be strictly defined is very advantageous.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I wouldn't call that "trust" I would call that the very definition of "distrust".

When you distrust someone it doesn't mean you think they'll do something at random, it means you firmly believe they will do something contrary to what a trusted person would do.

The fundamental existence of the unreliable narrator in fiction proves that an author can be trusted, as the writer, to provide a perspective he or she explicitly expects us to distrust. It doesn't mean the writer is lying. The writer is lying when something breaks or flatly contradicts in a situation not set up for that eventuality. And even then, some would argue an author is never lying, even when his work is full of contradictions.

[Judoh]

I'm still of the opinion that the Meta characters don't really represent anybody on the game board. I mean it's not like we learn anything new about them from their counterparts that we didn't know before they appeared. Zepar and Fufur should be no different.

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by Renall

WOULD FIT WHAT!?

The hints given to us?

Now, giving us the reason to Shkanon's relevance might be too early.
I think that giving us Shkanon would make people reread the story through a different perspective. So, while it may or may not be the most relevant hint to finding the culprit, it may give people a different opinion on how the murders were done.

Anyways, it is useless debating how truthful Ryukishi07 was at this point. He will show us himself, for sure in about... 6ish months.

[m0h]

How do you see this scenario:

Jessica loved Battler.
Battler told Shannon that his perfect match would be a girl LIKE Jessica, but not her. Shannon tells that to Jessica.
Jessica wants to become like Beatrice, and asks Kumasawa/Virgilia to teach her magic.
Jessica is the only one who can be a witch in front of Maria, since they spend a lot of time together, that would explain why Maria KNOWS PERFECTLY Beatrice.
When Jessica learn that Battler would return, asks Shannon to create "Kanon", to fake an unrequainted love. ( that would hide her love for Battler, like Beato )
That would explain also why Beato liked to troll Kanon.. since "he doesn't exist" and he can "disappear easily".

... the rest should come naturally..

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

The hints given to us?

Let me break this down for you:

• Ryukishi does not write scenes in which Shannon and Kanon are together unless they are out of Battler's presence.
• Ryukishi creates the impression that only Battler's POV is reliable (which isn't true, and may not be true the OTHER way, but anyway).
• People assume, and begin to speculate, that Shannon and Kanon are the same person for this reason alone.
• Because it is being discussed, Ryukishi begins to address it in extraliterary conversations and interviews.
• Because he is doing so, people assume it is relevant, and because it is relevant, it must also be true (even though it could be irrelevant as a smokescreen, or relevant in its untruth).
• Because people assume it's relevant, he keeps writing about it.

This is the function Shkanon serves.

Now, giving us the reason to Shkanon's relevance might be too early.
I think that giving us Shkanon would make people reread the story through a different perspective. So, while it may or may not be the most relevant hint to finding the culprit, it may give people a different opinion on how the murders were done.

Except nothing in ep1-4 requires that Shannon and Kanon be one person and actually the mysteries become harder to solve if they are.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Wouldn't that make them extremely predictable though? And knowing someone's behaviour to be strictly defined is very advantageous.

I don't disagree with that, but I believe "untrustworthy" and "unpredictable" are different. After all the definition of unpredictable isn't necessarily bad, one could surprise you by actually doing something good to you.
By other hands id you define someone as untrustworthy you usually do not imply anything good.

Originally Posted by Renall

The fundamental existence of the unreliable narrator in fiction proves that an author can be trusted, as the writer, to provide a perspective he or she explicitly expects us to distrust. It doesn't mean the writer is lying. The writer is lying when something breaks or flatly contradicts in a situation not set up for that eventuality. And even then, some would argue an author is never lying, even when his work is full of contradictions.

There you put that better. But I'd like to note that if you think that the writer is lying in an interview that's not something you can justify as a narrative expedient it simply means you do not trust the author himself.

WOULD FIT WHAT!?

It "fits" a problem it created itself. It has no value!

Okay, I'll say it for the last time.

Beatrice's purpose was to create the perfect mystery novel story
In order to create the story she needed a very dirty trick
The trick she came up with is shkanon, or rather the use of fake personality to give the illusion that the number of people in the island is higher than what it actually is.

See, shkanon it's not the problem, it's the solution.

[m0h]

Originally Posted by Renall

Except nothing in ep1-4 requires that Shannon and Kanon be one person and actually the mysteries become harder to solve if they are.

Now that i think about it.. shouldn't we apply our knowledge to the FIRST GAME mostly?

we know that the first game is the one less affected by magic, and should be the one where the truth is most evident. We can't be sure that the other games don't have the same whydunnit, just a different howdunnit. If we fix the knowledge we acquired, shouldn't we be able to crack the 1st game open? just an hypotesis, of course.