AnimeSuki Forums

Dark Wing · 2021-01-30, 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

Satoko is an antagonist, but definitely not the true antagonist though.

Interesting...so does that mean we're finally getting a tie in to that series?

Ayu-ayu · 2021-01-30, 22:22

My thoughts:

The OG gameboard was LambdaDelta using piece Takano versus Featherine using piece Hanyuu/Rika.

In Rei, Bernkastel declares that she has been born as a witch and that she will leave Rika now.

In Gou, the gameboard is now Featherine using piece Hanyuu/Satoko versus her Miko/cat that has graduated to being a Witch/player as Bernkastel playing using piece Rika.

In the prior episode, we hear piece Hanyuu/Satoko explain the actual scenario: that as a the actual kami of Hinamizawa, the kami expects its miko to love, serve and respect it. The kami expected that once it solved its miko's problems, the miko would be content and happy and give it unconditional love, as you would expect a kami's miko to do in the religious context. Yet Rika was still concerned with leaving Hinamizawa and did not love the place (remember, places are kami themselves in Shintoism) for itself. This upset the kami and it used Satoko to change things to trap its miko into a Logic Error (being that the same rules applied? That neglecting a miko's full duty to their kami would not have consequences?).

The Logic Error is part of the gameboard's main scenario possibly that Bern must solve to escape Featherine's trap. So Bern makes Rika try loving Hinamizawa (and Satoko as Hanyuu's new avatar) seemingly unconditionally (the dice being rolled by a different player as Featherine rolled the dice in the OG gameboard). At the end of the episode, Hanyuu figures out that Rika has seen through Satoko what she is up to (perhaps Featherine acknowledging Bern's move).

What do you think, everyone?

Edit:
Note that in this scenario, LamdaDelta is not a player at all. She may OTOH be an observer/audience much like Featherine was in Umineko and thus could have a role later...

AC-Phoenix · 2021-01-30, 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

My thoughts:

The OG gameboard was LambdaDelta using piece Takano versus Featherine using piece Hanyuu/Rika.

In Rei, Bernkastel declares that she has been born as a witch and that she will leave Rika now.

In Gou, the gameboard is now Featherine using piece Hanyuu/Satoko versus her Miko/cat that has graduated to being a Witch/player as Bernkastel playing using piece Rika.

In the prior episode, we hear piece Hanyuu/Satoko explain the actual scenario: that as a the actual kami of Hinamizawa, the kami expects its miko to love, serve and respect it. The kami expected that once it solved its miko's problems, the miko would be content and happy and give it unconditional love, as you would expect a kami's miko to do in the religious context. Yet Rika was still concerned with leaving Hinamizawa and did not love the place (remember, places are kami themselves in Shintoism) for itself. This upset the kami and it used Satoko to change things to trap its miko into a Logic Error (being that the same rules applied? That neglecting a miko's full duty to their kami would not have consequences?).

The Logic Error is part of the gameboard's main scenario possibly that Bern must solve to escape Featherine's trap. So Bern makes Rika try loving Hinamizawa (and Satoko as Hanyuu's new avatar) seemingly unconditionally (the dice being rolled by a different player as Featherine rolled the dice in the OG gameboard). At the end of the episode, Hanyuu figures out that Rika has seen through Satoko what she is up to (perhaps Featherine acknowledging Bern's move).

What do you think, everyone?

Edit:
Note that in this scenario, LamdaDelta is not a player at all. She may OTOH be an observer/audience much like Featherine was in Umineko and thus could have a role later...

I'll stick with my initial analysis that Satoko is actually Lamda. Not only do they look like each other, share all their character traits, fail at the same riddle, but Satoko also displayed glowing amber colored eyes, which is a feature of LamdaDelta's, just as Rikka's purple~ish glow is a feature of Bernkastel.
In addition to that Ryukishi himself allegedly said Lamda looking like Takano is a red herring ages ago.

As for the figure looking like Featherine:
While that could indeed be Featherine, it could be someone much more closely associated with Higurashi, namely either Hanyu or her daughter. A possibility I needed to go into "DEFINITELY NEEDS SLEEP NOW" mode to realize...

It's very possible that either Hanyu or her daughter actually want to punish Rika for wanting to leave. Or that one wants to help her leave, while the other wants to punish her.

That being said... I still hope we will see Beatrice appear next week, laughing her ass off for Satoko pulling a gun like that. Alas, as Higurashi was the story of how Bernkastel became a witch, this might be the story of how Lamda became a witch.

Marina2 · 2021-01-31, 10:02

I don't know guys, while I like @Ayu-ayu theory, I don't like how the plot or mystery of Higurashi require too much extra knowledge from Umineko to fully understand.

If Satoko is Lambda, or Lambda is true mastermind that helping Satoko or controlling Satoko's action, then it will go against Knox's 1st: It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story - since the Lambda herself has never been hinted or introduced within Hinamizawa game board before. Only supernatural agents we know about in Hinamizawa game board are Hanyu (Oyashiro-sama) and her relatives and Bernkastel.

Jaden · 2021-01-31, 12:49

I'd say Knox would apply only to self-contained mysteries, such as "who killed Rika in Watadamashi-hen"

It won't be of any use solving the overarching mystery, because by default we (and the main characters) are using information from different worlds, thus violating Knox 2nd. And while Beatrice in Umineko said that she did her best to follow those rules, there's no such reassurance given in Higurashi.

But I do actually agree that Knox 1st is just basic storywriting practice that I would expect everyone to follow. That means Satoko is probably tag-teaming with Hanyu, who gave her the motive and means. Those Umineko characters might still appear as a bonus meme, but I don't think they are directly driving Satoko.

Ayu-ayu · 2021-01-31, 14:24

I should clarify that when I talk about the players and pieces, I do mean that the pieces follow all the gameboard rules. Rika doesn't have any outside knowledge beyond the few hints Hanyuu left, and certainly no clue about the metaworld gameboard, and her current player (I am sticking with Bern for now) can only work with this information as the agreed upon ruleset.

Similiarly Featherine can only influence Satoko through Hanyuu in the context of her as the kami of Hinamizawa, and Satoko doesn't know anymore than what she has experienced as a looper herself. There's no reason for her to be any more aware of the meta game players than Rika is.

Whoever the players are, I think it's fairly clear now that Hanyuu/Oyashiro (perhaps manifesting differently for Satoko) using Satoko as a looper is Rika's most likely opponent in the gameboard this time.

Jan-Poo · 2021-01-31, 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

In addition to that Ryukishi himself allegedly said Lamda looking like Takano is a red herring ages ago.

It's not because of how they look that people associated Takano with Lambda but because in both cases you can read their name as "34", and there's really no other explanation as to why Ryuukishi chose such an outlandish name for the Umineko character other than the number thing.

The Creator · 2021-01-31, 22:01

So it finally became true.

I think we are reading way too much into the Umineko connection. Maybe it's because we can never have enough Umi or because the movie website registration gave us hope.

Either way I doubt we will actually have any connection besides the ones we already knew in the original series.

The main questions is how is Satoko looping supposing that Hanyuu is not using her powers. Motive seems to be that she does not want to leave Hinamizawa and if Rika leaves she will eventually be left alone (my guess is that K1 and company all leave town, Satoshi never recovers and the loops starts too late to save him as well).

Maybe Hanyuu did take pity on her and help her but she went nuts with loneliness? Maybe there's a third party or one of the Hou goddesses?

Very looking forward to the next episode.

Marina2 · 2021-01-31, 23:47

Ep.18 Preview
https://higurashianime.com/story/005_018.html

Whoever chose images for each preview is genius. They make us curious what will happen without telling anything.

EDIT: wrong link.

maximilianjenus · 2021-02-01, 00:12

the thing with the umineko tie is that it wont require umineko knowledge, but rather it will show us those umineko character backstories.

Dextro · 2021-02-01, 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marina2

Ep.18 Preview
https://higurashianime.com/story/005_018.html

Whoever chose images for each preview is genius. They make us curious what will happen without telling anything.

EDIT: wrong link.

Oh! Is Hanyuu going to show up again? :O

Marina2 · 2021-02-01, 11:20

Preview of new ED
https://youtu.be/lpHfure_lYI?t=761

It definitely got some Umineko vibe.

Ayu-ayu · 2021-02-01, 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Creator

So it finally became true.

I think we are reading way too much into the Umineko connection. Maybe it's because we can never have enough Umi or because the movie website registration gave us hope.

Movie website registration? I missed this.

I was just rereading some of the Umineko manga where Bern was enjoying torturing and "tearing the guts out", along with a later conversation she has with Featherine at the end of Episode 7 where they have a slightly cryptic exchange where they hint and their relative amounts of time spent enduring (Featherine mocking Bern referring to mere centuries as "eternity") and it feels a LOT more pointed this time around.

I do think R07 will play by the rules and the mystery will be self-contained within the gameboard, but I also think we are seeing him reveal more of what happened that led to the metaworld's setting by the time of Umineko. Also it probably isn't a coincidence that Rika was allowed to age until 1986 before looping back again. I am guessing that discovering Beatrice's gameboard may have necessitated the added "nuturing" of Bernkastel by Featherine to represent her in that world.

Wheels within wheels...

The Green One · 2021-02-02, 08:31

If I recall from Umineko episode 6 it was lamda, not bern who mentioned being trapped in a logic error before.

MeoTwister5 · 2021-02-02, 08:48

I'm curious as to what people are seeing here that I'm not seeing that connects both stories more than merely on the metaworld level.

Jan-Poo · 2021-02-02, 10:44

Indeed the fact that in the world of Umineko Okonogi is a food company president in 1986 makes it very unlikely that it's the same world of Higurashi. It sounds more like a parallel universe where Okonogi took a different path. Additionally in the world of Umineko there is a book titled "Higurashi no naku koro ni" and the protagonist even mentions a passage that proves it's even the same story of the visual novel that we know.

Spoiler for Umineko end game content:

In the end the connection between Umineko and Higurashi in my opinion is merely at the metaworld level.

AC-Phoenix · 2021-02-02, 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Indeed the fact that in the world of Umineko Okonogi is a food company president in 1986 makes it very unlikely that it's the same world of Higurashi. It sounds more like a parallel universe where Okonogi took a different path. Additionally in the world of Umineko there is a book titled "Higurashi no naku koro ni" and the protagonist even mentions a passage that proves it's even the same story of the visual novel that we know.

Spoiler for Umineko end game content:

In the end the connection between Umineko and Higurashi in my opinion is merely at the metaworld level.

I think they are in the same world, just not in the same place.

Umineko and Higurashi are technically set in the same world, I think even happen around the same time. They are just set in different places.

The company could just be a shell company, or part of his fake ID.

Ayu-ayu · 2021-02-02, 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Green One

If I recall from Umineko episode 6 it was lamda, not bern who mentioned being trapped in a logic error before.

We are both right:
https://07th-expansion.fandom.com/wiki/Logic_Error

Ayu-ayu · 2021-02-02, 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Indeed the fact that in the world of Umineko Okonogi is a food company president in 1986 makes it very unlikely that it's the same world of Higurashi. It sounds more like a parallel universe where Okonogi took a different path. Additionally in the world of Umineko there is a book titled "Higurashi no naku koro ni" and the protagonist even mentions a passage that proves it's even the same story of the visual novel that we know.

Spoiler for Umineko end game content:

In the end the connection between Umineko and Higurashi in my opinion is merely at the metaworld level.

I agree that they are different universes--they are different gameboards with different rulesets. The ruleset defines which pieces are in play and how they were set up on the board.

Bern has to follow the game rules if she is a player. And I already agree that the connection is at the metalevel. Characters within the gameboard cannot have outside knowledge that affects the game.

The Green One · 2021-02-02, 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

We are both right:
https://07th-expansion.fandom.com/wiki/Logic_Error

True, I guess you could call Higurashi a "logic error" of it's own.

2021-01-30, 22:22	Link #582
Ayu-ayu a.k.a. Akari_House Join Date: May 2003 Location: Somewhere near Seattle Age: 53	My thoughts: The OG gameboard was LambdaDelta using piece Takano versus Featherine using piece Hanyuu/Rika. In Rei, Bernkastel declares that she has been born as a witch and that she will leave Rika now. In Gou, the gameboard is now Featherine using piece Hanyuu/Satoko versus her Miko/cat that has graduated to being a Witch/player as Bernkastel playing using piece Rika. In the prior episode, we hear piece Hanyuu/Satoko explain the actual scenario: that as a the actual kami of Hinamizawa, the kami expects its miko to love, serve and respect it. The kami expected that once it solved its miko's problems, the miko would be content and happy and give it unconditional love, as you would expect a kami's miko to do in the religious context. Yet Rika was still concerned with leaving Hinamizawa and did not love the place (remember, places are kami themselves in Shintoism) for itself. This upset the kami and it used Satoko to change things to trap its miko into a Logic Error (being that the same rules applied? That neglecting a miko's full duty to their kami would not have consequences?). The Logic Error is part of the gameboard's main scenario possibly that Bern must solve to escape Featherine's trap. So Bern makes Rika try loving Hinamizawa (and Satoko as Hanyuu's new avatar) seemingly unconditionally (the dice being rolled by a different player as Featherine rolled the dice in the OG gameboard). At the end of the episode, Hanyuu figures out that Rika has seen through Satoko what she is up to (perhaps Featherine acknowledging Bern's move). What do you think, everyone? Edit: Note that in this scenario, LamdaDelta is not a player at all. She may OTOH be an observer/audience much like Featherine was in Umineko and thus could have a role later... __________________ --- (MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...) Last edited by Ayu-ayu; 2021-01-30 at 22:31. Reason: additional thought

2021-01-31, 10:02	Link #584
Marina2 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006	I don't know guys, while I like @Ayu-ayu theory, I don't like how the plot or mystery of Higurashi require too much extra knowledge from Umineko to fully understand. If Satoko is Lambda, or Lambda is true mastermind that helping Satoko or controlling Satoko's action, then it will go against Knox's 1st: It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story - since the Lambda herself has never been hinted or introduced within Hinamizawa game board before. Only supernatural agents we know about in Hinamizawa game board are Hanyu (Oyashiro-sama) and her relatives and Bernkastel. __________________

2021-01-31, 12:49	Link #585
Jaden Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006	I'd say Knox would apply only to self-contained mysteries, such as "who killed Rika in Watadamashi-hen" It won't be of any use solving the overarching mystery, because by default we (and the main characters) are using information from different worlds, thus violating Knox 2nd. And while Beatrice in Umineko said that she did her best to follow those rules, there's no such reassurance given in Higurashi. But I do actually agree that Knox 1st is just basic storywriting practice that I would expect everyone to follow. That means Satoko is probably tag-teaming with Hanyu, who gave her the motive and means. Those Umineko characters might still appear as a bonus meme, but I don't think they are directly driving Satoko. __________________

2021-01-31, 14:24	Link #586
Ayu-ayu a.k.a. Akari_House Join Date: May 2003 Location: Somewhere near Seattle Age: 53	I should clarify that when I talk about the players and pieces, I do mean that the pieces follow all the gameboard rules. Rika doesn't have any outside knowledge beyond the few hints Hanyuu left, and certainly no clue about the metaworld gameboard, and her current player (I am sticking with Bern for now) can only work with this information as the agreed upon ruleset. Similiarly Featherine can only influence Satoko through Hanyuu in the context of her as the kami of Hinamizawa, and Satoko doesn't know anymore than what she has experienced as a looper herself. There's no reason for her to be any more aware of the meta game players than Rika is. Whoever the players are, I think it's fairly clear now that Hanyuu/Oyashiro (perhaps manifesting differently for Satoko) using Satoko as a looper is Rika's most likely opponent in the gameboard this time. __________________ --- (MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...)

2021-01-31, 23:47	Link #589
Marina2 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006	Ep.18 Preview https://higurashianime.com/story/005_018.html Whoever chose images for each preview is genius. They make us curious what will happen without telling anything. EDIT: wrong link. __________________ Last edited by Marina2; 2021-02-01 at 11:20.

2021-01-31, 22:01	Link #588
The Creator Golden Emperor Join Date: Jun 2006	So it finally became true. I think we are reading way too much into the Umineko connection. Maybe it's because we can never have enough Umi or because the movie website registration gave us hope. Either way I doubt we will actually have any connection besides the ones we already knew in the original series. The main questions is how is Satoko looping supposing that Hanyuu is not using her powers. Motive seems to be that she does not want to leave Hinamizawa and if Rika leaves she will eventually be left alone (my guess is that K1 and company all leave town, Satoshi never recovers and the loops starts too late to save him as well). Maybe Hanyuu did take pity on her and help her but she went nuts with loneliness? Maybe there's a third party or one of the Hou goddesses? Very looking forward to the next episode.

2021-02-01, 00:12	Link #590
maximilianjenus [E] Join Date: Mar 2008	the thing with the umineko tie is that it wont require umineko knowledge, but rather it will show us those umineko character backstories.

2021-02-01, 11:20	Link #592
Marina2 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006	Preview of new ED https://youtu.be/lpHfure_lYI?t=761 It definitely got some Umineko vibe. __________________

2021-02-02, 08:31	Link #594
The Green One Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010	If I recall from Umineko episode 6 it was lamda, not bern who mentioned being trapped in a logic error before. __________________

2021-02-02, 08:48	Link #595
MeoTwister5 Komrades of Kitamura Kou Join Date: Jul 2004 Age: 39	I'm curious as to what people are seeing here that I'm not seeing that connects both stories more than merely on the metaworld level. __________________ Medical Student vs. Anime Last Exile - Fam the Silver Wing -

2021-02-02, 10:44	Link #596
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Indeed the fact that in the world of Umineko Okonogi is a food company president in 1986 makes it very unlikely that it's the same world of Higurashi. It sounds more like a parallel universe where Okonogi took a different path. Additionally in the world of Umineko there is a book titled "Higurashi no naku koro ni" and the protagonist even mentions a passage that proves it's even the same story of the visual novel that we know. Spoiler for Umineko end game content: Finally I've never seen any indication that Bernkastel in Umineko can travel among different real parallel universes (as Rika does) rather than simply being able to travel among different scenario that exist in written accounts. Otherwise it would be a very simple task for her to find what happened in Rokkenjima, instead to learn the truth she pushes Ange to find and disclose the contents of Eva's account. In the end the connection between Umineko and Higurashi in my opinion is merely at the metaworld level. __________________