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View Poll Results: Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 11 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 37 | 20.67% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 47 | 26.26% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 41 | 22.91% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 27 | 15.08% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 18 | 10.06% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 3 | 1.68% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 2 | 1.12% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 2 | 1.12% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 2 | 1.12% | |
Voters: 179. You may not vote on this poll |
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2009-09-16, 17:16 | Link #361 |
Kurumada's lost child
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Ok... After watching the first 11 episodes and never played the game before I can't understand why so many people like this anime. I admit the gore, the violence and the fan-service are fun. However the plot is very weak. Here is why:
The witch is the equivalent of a God, everyone including Batter is just a toy, she and the other witches are so bored that they invented the twisted game of recreating the a world over and over in which people die time and time again with the sole objective to make the ever stubborn Batter acknowledge that magic exists. I could accept that, but the plot becomes utterly illogical and none sense when Batter himself witnesses all the magic that the witch does in front of him, to the point of being able to see that she is the one allowing him to live and that she could squash him like a bug on a whim, yet he tries to act cool in front her and he keeps insisting that the earth is flat. The only thing that is keeping Batter alive is the fact that the witch has a HUGE ego and she won't give up until this incredibly stupid guy realizes that she and her magic are real. Can an anime be any more retarded than this? Or am I not seeing something REALLY important in the storyline that makes this anime utterly brilliant? I would apreaciate it if someone could explain to me what makes this anime so fascinating to the point where it is almost as popular as bleach and naruto with the animesuki community. Thank you. |
2009-09-16, 17:26 | Link #362 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Age: 39
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I could say a lot of things but instead I'll quote something chronotrig said.
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2009-09-16, 17:38 | Link #363 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Warwick, RI
Age: 40
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1) Not everything we see is necessarily what happened. If the witch isn't the murderer, then the magical scenes we see on the gameboard (in other words, in the Real-World), are illusions. That doesn't mean those scenes are worthless, but rather you should consider them to be only metaphorical. They give you clues about what might really be happening, the real truth which we aren't allowed see. 2) Battler's objective is to prove that a witch didn't commit the murders with magic in the Real-World. Therefore, magic performed in the afterlife/the Meta-World/Purgatorio does not contradict the contention that magic doesn't exist in the Real-World, or that the perpetrator isn't a witch. A person can belief in the afterlife or the supernatural on another plane of existence without believing that it exists in reality. That is where Meta-Battler is situated: he knows he has died. He knows he's on some other plane. He knows that he is observing different realities and that Beatrice (or somebody) is showing him a magical version of events). 3) With each game that concludes in a "bad end", the magical "corruption" can be said to increase. More and more magical things and beings are appearing, because Beatrice is gaining strength. That doesn't necessarily mean that the magical explanation becomes more and more airtight -- in fact, most people would say it becomes more and more sloppy. 4) Magic might exist in Umineko, but whether it's the tool used in the murders or it really works the way Beato claims it does is the main question of the story. The mystery only becomes an open-and-shut case in favor of magic if, as Battler says, you stop thinking. There are MANY, MANY holes in the anti-mystery argument if you look for them. To flip the chessboard around, too, think about the story a different way. Instead of framing the story as "Battler is trying to prove that Beatrice isn't a witch and the murderer" think of it as "Beatrice is trying to convince Battler that she is a witch and the murderer." Which leads you to the question of why? The magical explanation is "because she needs everyone to believe in order to open up the door to the Golden Land." But if you are arguing from a mystery standpoint, then everything gets a lot more complicated and interesting. Why on earth might Beatrice want to be framed as the murderer? What is going on? In the end, Umineko is more about what ISN'T being said and shown than about what is readily apparent. I also recommend reading Ryukishi's "Anti-Fantasy vs Anti-Mystery" TIP which was posted in one of the anime threads recently I think. |
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2009-09-16, 17:45 | Link #364 |
The Death!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
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For me the point is finding a way of denying her magic and flash in-game rather than all that stuff what happens after the main parts of the story. Trying to find the true culprit and not rely on that old "a wizard did it" crap. There are alot of theories and views constructing your own based on evidence provided makes it fun and utterly brain bending.
EDIT: Although June makes a really fantastic point lol.
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2009-09-17, 08:52 | Link #367 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
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There is lot of places where you will think "What the hell am I reading? Thats nonsense, this is plothole like pacific ocean." Only to read next scene that will explain just enough to make you realise that its not a plothole but plot device. Which is exactyl why i like Umineko so much. |
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2009-09-17, 23:16 | Link #368 | |
Kurumada's lost child
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Thanks for the response. The thing is, it hasn't been implied that Battler knows that he is dead and is already on some other plane of existence, if he was aware of it, it would be the same as acknowledging the supernatural and thus Beatrice's magic, perhaps the subs I watched didn't have an accurate translation. How exactly is Beatrice supposed to explain to Battler that the murders were all caused by magic acts when Battler is aware the witch can alter the "movie" at a whim? The only way the anime would make sense was if the witch somehow would take Battler to the first 6 episodes where the murders took place and attempted to show Battler what happened from different points of view, but unfortunately none of that is happening. The witch rewrites the story time and time again with the purpose of making Battler believe in her, plain and simple. At the moment I fail to see all the clues and puzzles being left undisclosed when the anime is blunt in its way of showing shameless acts of magic in front of the viewers. If the anime would resort to never showing magic but just mere hints of hit being performed then I would agree on this anime being a mystery/thriller type. |
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2009-09-17, 23:47 | Link #369 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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I don't know why but I want to laugh at that last paragraph. Laugh like Beatrice I mean. If they didn't resort to the use of magic, there wouldn't be a story at this point. Basically from the look of things, the witch is saying she killed everyone, and Battler says that witches and magic don't exist. Therefore someone killed all those people...especially in the first arc where there was no full magic scenes for the murders.
The anime is meant to make you question what is going on. What is happening? If magic is the answer, then there is no point to the plot...it is just too easy. Therefore there must be something else, and one supposed though use of the red text, one might find out at least what did or did not happen, since the red text is suppose to be the truth. As for Battler knowing he's dead...he and the other cousins pretty much say they are dead in episode 5, at the tea party. They talk about Shannon and Kanon's deaths in the past-tense, and Battler starts denying the witch even though she "kills" everyone in the room...in front of him, with magic. Since he knows he is dead, he also knows this world he is in is not real, thus, Beatrice killing everyone in front of him there means nothing. As so far, Battler has not to our knowledged witnessed any magic scenes (such as Kanon's fights or Shannon's fight). If he had seen the fight with Kanon, he wouldn't have needed to ask if Kanon had died in that room (which was confirmed in red) If you mean he's death by goats in this episode....what was he doing before he went to see his grandfather and Beatrice? Drinking. Out of what looks like an Old Fashioned tumbler, typically used for things like whiskey. With all games there are rules...just Battler doesn't know what they are...yet. What we see and what Battler sees are not always the same thing. Especially things that he doesn't see...such as the magic fights, or conversations in the past where Battler wasn't present. However, the rules will come.
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2009-09-18, 00:25 | Link #370 | |||
Winter is coming
Join Date: Aug 2008
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2009-09-18, 00:55 | Link #371 | |
Kurumada's lost child
Join Date: Nov 2003
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I do admit that the first 6 episodes of the series were superb. I was really hocked up, there was just hint a magic being used and the plot was thickening by the minute. |
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2009-09-18, 01:06 | Link #372 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Your task, should you choose to accept it, is to find out what is going on behind the magic. What does it mean? Is it a clue? Is it a red herring? Is it showing you something would wouldn't have seen or known about if this was pure mystery? So far we've had the basic story of October 4th and 5th retold twice. Both times different people died in a different order. The methods sort of changed, but some patterns remained. What was the pattern? Does it give us any clues to who killed these people? Was it Beatrice? If so, where was she during the first arc?
What are the rules to this game between Beatrice and Battler? And what of the other two witches? Do they matter? Or are they to distract you from the mystery? Will there be more magic (OP says yes)?
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2009-09-18, 01:11 | Link #373 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Ryukishi really wanted to raise a challenge for Umineko. He wanted to see who has the guts to try and solve this mystery even if it isn't even sure that there is a point ins speculating. You are right, if there's magic at work, then there is absolutely no point. So are you going to give up? Or are you trying anyway?
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2009-09-18, 01:49 | Link #374 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Age: 39
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I think Umineko isn't for everyone. Especially not the anime. Even if you're confused in the VN, everything is so good that you don't really care. It's still very exciting. |
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2009-09-18, 02:24 | Link #375 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Above everything, Umineko demands of the detective (you the player/viewer) to be a skeptic, a cynic, but more than that someone with a spirit unwilling to be conrnered by seemngly overwhelming odds to the point of confusion.
This is the presentation premise of the story itself, to try and convince you with seemingly irrefutable proof that magic is the power of the perpetrator and is the only viable option. The detective's task then is to find a hole to explain everything as a result of human action rather than the supernatural. It is, in other words, a fight against overwhelming odds.
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2009-09-18, 03:47 | Link #376 | |
Endless Nine
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In a certain tropical island
Age: 38
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Spoiler for Excerpt from Anti-Mystery vs Anti-Fantasy:
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2009-09-18, 04:31 | Link #377 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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You are basically trapped by the false premise Umineko would be your cookie cutter mystery plot a la Agatha Christie which is absolutely not the case. Considering the genre and medium, umineko offers a blend of several genre, graviting around the mystery regarding the culprit(s). That is to say, it doesn't have to follow any convention, and to make things even more interesting: as we mentioned several times ever since this second arc started, if you stop your thought process just because of the flashy magic scenes, you just lost the game, period. The idea is actually not figuring out "if it is a witch or a human", but simply sticking on your conviction, then elaborating the arguments behind your own premise. Basically: it isn't because there are witches that Magic exists in the real world of Umineko. Plain and simple.
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2009-09-18, 10:43 | Link #378 | |
Kurumada's lost child
Join Date: Nov 2003
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How am I supposed to stick to my own convictions during the second killing of Kanon or Shanon when you can clearly see shameless acts of magic that resemble Sailor Moon? Battler is never present during those acts because he would be completely overwhelmed by the facts and be forced to give up. It is the same with the red letters, Battler explicitly said to Beatrice not to mention magic when she is explaining the murder scenes because they would "appear" as truth. To me it seems that all this "irrational" story telling would become clear in the following episodes. However, I believe that the author made a huge mistake by not making explicit but rather subtle connections between where the story is heading and the objective of the anime. Subtleties are too vague and will always mislead many in the wrong direction, which in point becomes detrimental to the anime because many people will just turn away from it. I might be an exception because instead of running away I sought help in understanding what is going on by coming to this forum, but many other people won't even bother. PS. Yes I am trapped in premise that this would be a completely different type of anime, but I don't think it is my fault. The anime was very explicit during the first 6 episodes and it seemed very clear where it was heading. Obviously, the author wanted to try something new so he just turned the world upside down for the sheer joy of watching his views go "WTF". |
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