To Aru Kagaku no Railgun archived manga discussion

[GDB]

As long as they don't just copy what the anime did, and it isn't just Mikoto doing everything herself, I'm cool with it.

[Death Usagi]

From the contents that exist so far railgun, doesn't seem like there can be any fillers when a season 3 comes for Railgun.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Death Usagi

From the contents that exist so far railgun, doesn't seem like there can be any fillers when a season 3 comes for Railgun.

Never underestimate JC staff. They'll do it if they think it'll be more profitable. Though I hope they learned their lesson from last time... Though they might not get the chance to redeem themselves...

[Birdway]

Originally Posted by GDB

Well, the characters that actually appear on a regular basis are the ones that matter as far as remembering goes. Touma and Mikoto obviously already know, and who cares if characters who have only had a couple of pages of screen time in almost 70 chapters remembers. It's all about advancing the interactions of the core group, and I hate when development just gets erased like that.

Welcome to Railgun series .

Originally Posted by dniv

I'm just curious about what next arc will be since this one is supposed to finish next issue...

Let's pray Mikoto doesn't turns out to be the victim that time.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Birdway

Let's pray Mikoto doesn't turns out to be the victim that time.

I agree completely. It's now two arcs in a row (in the manga) that Mikoto needs rescuing at the end... She is supposed to be the heroine here

Next arc is bound to be after Daihasesai, and if it's immediately after at least we know Touma can't be there to help.

There is something I want to see before next arc though, a certain closing bonfire dance. Especifically, what leads to it.

[desrtsku]

Mikoto is the only victim.

Remove your Mikoto googles for a minute.

I agree completely. She is supposed to be the heroine here

And Snow White is Snow white's main character, so what's your point?

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Remove your Mikoto googles for a minute.

Butthurt much? If you're going to quote someone you shouldn't modify it to better fit your point, it's called using a strawman.

The unmodified post aludes to a fact, if you can't take it then suck it. Don't go incorrectly calling on "googles" due to a lack of a proper counterargument.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

And Snow White is Snow white's main character, so what's your point?

In the first place, main character =/= hero. FYI, there are plenty of archetypes for a main character, and Snow White is a classic damsel in distress, or a classic princess if you may, but not a hero.

Mikoto on the other hand is constructed quite differently, in the Railgun manga, and would fit better an idealistic hero.

Now, if you require me to spell out the point, here it goes. It's my opinion that when a hero requires too much help he ends up looking weak, which is kinda lame for the story overall.

Don't get me wrong, I find acceptable how it's been done so far, but if it keeps up with Mikoto being unable to participate in the actions that settle the conflicts (which btw, are centered on her) then she'll resemble more a failure of a hero which I really don't think fits well in this manga.

Not that I think Kamachi will make that mistake, but that's besides the point.

[OH&S]

^
Personally, I predict this to be the last time she will be in such a position. The Sisters arc HAD to play out the way it did due to the light novels but this time around this situation was quite phenomenal; dealing with Level 6 shifts and the destruction of the city and whatnot.

Considering the exceptional circumstances of this volume (ie the chapters that will be bound into volume 10) I think the damsel in distress card has been played for the last time for Mikoto. There just isn't any situation that would top this and still concern Mikoto as a damsel without being repetitive.

The amount of spectacle in this volume alone made up for Mikoto being a damsel in distress again. It just doesn't make any sense for this to happen one more time.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by leukrota

Butthurt much?

Yes, a lot. I can't even sit down right now. It hurts so much.

Spoiler for For real? Dude, you need to calm down an think for a second:

Originally Posted by leukrota

If you're going to quote someone you shouldn't modify it to better fit your point, it's called using a strawman.

eh ... what?
I don't know what to think about this. Better be honest, then.

Did I do something wrong or offensive? I'd understand if you quoted the heroine part instead, because I indeed modified heroine->mc to make fun of you. But I don't even remember modifying this ; or if I did, I don't remember the modification I made.
So I assume you're actually talking about the heroine one, but misquoted this instead.

Originally Posted by leukrota

The unmodified post aludes to a fact, if you can't take it then suck it. Don't go incorrectly calling on "googles" due to a lack of a proper counterargument.

Fine, "googles" means she's not the only "victim" every arc and people fail to see that.

Shinobu, Kongou, Harumi were victims as well. As they are by themselves heroes by definition.

Touma is a victim himself as he needed to be saved (from plasma, DS, etc) as he were ironically trying to save another hero that needed saving ... twice.

Plus, she's actually some things done halfway through before needing any kind of help unlike the other Railgun heroes. Which doesn't really hurt her status as a hero.

Moreover, this time (and partially the other time too) the entire town was as much in danger as her this arc. Saving "her", was also a parallel to saving the entire town.

Originally Posted by leukrota

In the first place, main character =/= hero. ... besides the point.

Prepared argument : the fact that someone is a "hero" or "heroine" is touched a lot in this especially NT7. Which leads to : Touma is also a hero, Koungou, Kuroko is a hero, Misaki is, even Harumi actually. Now how many of them needed to helped or saved, I don't know. The only difference is that Mikoto is very centric (MC, "heroine" by the broad definition of the term) like Snow white or something.

Snow white isn't an heroine

Snow actually is a "heroine" by story related and Disney characters definition though (which literally translates to female MC). From a by kamachi NT7 and Epic adventure definition she isn't so yeah I guess it depends on what you meant with your first post by

She is supposed to be the heroine here

But if you meant "NT7 hero" then, yeah. The only real difference between her and the rest is that she's the MC.
Which actually goes back to Snow White being MC damsel in distress.

[Ravagerblade]

A hero (masculine) or heroine (feminine) refers to characters who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self-sacrifice—that is, heroism—for some greater good of all humanity. This definition originally referred to martial courage or excellence but extended to more general moral excellence.

Stories of heroism may serve as moral examples. In classical antiquity, cults that venerated deified heroes such as Heracles, Perseus, and Achilles played an important role in Ancient Greek religion. Politicians, ancient and modern, have employed hero worship for their own apotheosis (i.e., cult of personality). Stories of the anti-hero also play a major role in Greek mythology and much of literature. The anti-hero is a protagonist whose qualities are the last expected from a person in certain situations; an anti-hero often lacks the typical characteristics of heroism, such as honor, nobility, bravery, compassion, and fortitude. The favorite type of anti-hero is a characterless individual.

Snow white is not a Disney only story, they had influences and had some adaptions to make their story.

Base your arguments about facts not bias. Sometimes the Hero is in a dire situation and needs bailing; that's where their comrades come into play. A hero stands up for justice but nothing can be accomplished by ones self. Hasn't that been what Touma does? He stands up for people in need when they can't themselves, did he always do it alone? No most often than not he had his comrades.

[LevelSeven]

A hero (masculine) or heroine (feminine) refers to characters who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self-sacrifice—that is, heroism—for some greater good of all humanity.

i can be wrong but this is the opposite of NT9 touma right?

[LevelSeven]

A hero (masculine) or heroine (feminine) refers to characters who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self-sacrifice—that is, heroism—for some greater good of all humanity.

i can be wrong but this is the opposite of NT9 touma right?

[allfictions]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

i can be wrong but this is the opposite of NT9 touma right?

Read the whole comment, he mentions anti hero later.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Don't start any LN spoilers discussion here =_=

[LevelSeven]

Read the whole comment, he mentions anti hero later.

it fits accels carachteristics too, but this one is for anti-heroes:

an anti-hero often lacks the typical characteristics of heroism, such as honor, nobility, bravery, compassion, and fortitude

the previous description isnt really something anti-heroes have, it fits more into the hero category....

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

eh ... what?
I don't know what to think about this. Better be honest, then.

Did I do something wrong or offensive? I'd understand if you quoted the heroine part instead, because I indeed modified heroine->mc to make fun of you. But I don't even remember modifying this ; or if I did, I don't remember the modification I made.
So I assume you're actually talking about the heroine one, but misquoted this instead.

Fine, "googles" means she's not the only "victim" every arc and people fail to see that.

No misquote. The modification was precisely saying that Mikoto was the only victim. No one said that, you take the argument by a tangent with this modification.

When talking about the victim, you could say the main victim, as in the central "victim" of the conflict.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Touma is a victim himself as he needed to be saved (from plasma, DS, etc) as he were ironically trying to save another hero that needed saving ... twice.

Plus, she's actually some things done halfway through before needing any kind of help unlike the other Railgun heroes. Which doesn't really hurt her status as a hero.

The thing is, like I said, she missed taking a decisive action that ends the conflict, instead being relegated to depending on others. This hasn't happened with Touma yet in the novels (except when he is not there, but then he is not the protagonist in those stories... and he even steals the light there sometimes)

Perhaps I should be talking about her being the main hero, as opposed to just a hero, not that the issue is about this.

Being helped is not the problem, but as I said, being helped too much (or too often if you may) is. Also, in the last 2 arc she has not simply been helped, but also rescued. This is subjective but what I'm saying is that I currently see her being at the borderline. Clarifying better, even failing a lot doesn't mean she's not a hero, but it does mean she is a failure hero.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Moreover, this time (and partially the other time too) the entire town was as much in danger as her this arc. Saving "her", was also a parallel to saving the entire town.

That's besides the point.

Isn't it often the case anyways? (Even in Snow White rescuing the princess is rescuing the Kingdom)

Originally Posted by desrtsku

But if you meant "NT7 hero" then, yeah. The only real difference between her and the rest is that she's the MC.

I'm talking archetype here, though the fact that she is the MC is relevant too since she is at the center of the story. Heroes being victims in their own stories are rare events. Hope we are clear now then.

[GDB]

It's quite obvious that Mikoto is Spider-man. She swings around town, makes wise-ass remarks, and has clones. However, sometimes ol' Spidey needs a hand from the Avengers or Fantastic Four, and that's where Touma comes in.

[Birdway]

That makes sense, so she will never be featured as protagonist on any Avenger movie lol.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by leukrota

No misquote. The modification was precisely saying that Mikoto was the only victim. No one said that, you take the argument by a tangent with this modification.

Yeah, sure. That's just the subtle difference between "turns out to be the victim" and "turns out to be a victim".
You're right though, it's totally my fault for trying to read in-between the lines.

Spoiler for My longest post in years:

Originally Posted by leukrota

When talking about the victim, you could say the main victim, as in the central "victim" of the conflict.

Since when? Are you insinuating that when you say "the character", you meant "the main character"?
Please, enlighten me. My English isn't that good, so eventually, learning a few things will help a lot.

Then, when I say "Charles was the victim of the plane crash", does it objectively mean : "Charles was the main victim of the plane crash among the many others"? But certainly not "Charles was the only victim of the plane crash"?

Originally Posted by leukrota

The thing is, like I said, she missed taking a decisive action that ends the conflict,

No, no matter what she's done she was doomed to need help. That's the point of the whole thing. Same goes for Touma and the others.

Originally Posted by leukrota

instead being relegated to depending on others. This hasn't happened with Touma yet in the novels (except when he is not there, but then he is not the protagonist in those stories... and he even steals the light there sometimes)

Spoiler for Index spoiler:

... yeah, sure. You mean like in NT3, NT4, NT5-NT6, NT7, NT8 and freaking NT9. Oh, and Vol 3, Vol 4, Vol 18.
He didn't depend on others at all, and wasn't rescued even once (especially not Vol3, vol 18, NT4, NT5-NT6, NT7, NT8, NT9).

Originally Posted by leukrota

Perhaps I should be talking about her being the main hero, as opposed to just a hero, not that the issue is about this.

Yeah, you should have. And yes, it's the main issue because she clearly is not the only hero that get helped/rescued in here.

Originally Posted by leukrota

Being helped is not the problem, but as I said, being helped too much (or too often if you may) is. Also, in the last 2 arc she has not simply been helped, but also rescued. This is subjective but what I'm saying is that I currently see her being at the borderline. Clarifying better, even failing a lot doesn't mean she's not a hero, but it does mean she is a failure hero.

Touma gets hands offering him help more often than she ever did (see spoiler above). In addition, he already got rescued by a third party more often than she did, even if you count Railgun anime originals (see spoiler above).
Does that make him a failure of a hero? No.

That's besides the point.

How so? they are victims too. Plus, there's tons of heroes in there too.

Originally Posted by leukrota

Isn't it often the case anyways?

Really? I don't have that impression.

(Even in Snow White rescuing the princess is rescuing the Kingdom)

What?
The kingdom wasn't menaced of quasi-imminent destruction by a city buster+ by Snow White herself, though.
Maybe you meant "freeing it from the tyranny of that old hag", but it's not like the Kingdom was full on misery under her reign. On the contrary, it was always described as beautiful and prosperous.
Even if it was the case, that danger would have been suppressed by

Spoiler for Snow white spoilers:

the Old Hag's death, not really Snow White's revival.

Originally Posted by leukrota

I'm talking archetype here, though the fact that she is the MC is relevant too since she is at the center of the story.

What are you even talking about? She is at the center of the story because she IS the mc.

Originally Posted by leukrota

Heroes being victims in their own stories are rare events.

*cough*Justice league*cough*
No seriously, who's the main hero of things like Justice league? Depending on your answer I might say what you said above is slightly or seriously wrong giving how mainstream that thing is.

Now, let me continue. Staying with the rather mainstream stuffs that everyone should have in mind : Bleach, Madoka, several episode of some Precure series where some random new friends will save the heroes, pretty sure it happened a more than twice in the Sailor Moon anime, happens a lot in SNK (a whole lot).

I'm not saying it happens a lot though, just that it's not as rare as you make it seems to be.

Originally Posted by leukrota

Hope we are clear now then.

I don't know, maybe.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Since when? Are you insinuating that when you say "the character", you meant "the main character"?
Please, enlighten me. My English isn't that good, so eventually, learning a few things will help a lot.

Then, when I say "Charles was the victim of the plane crash", does it objectively mean : "Charles was the main victim of the plane crash among the many others"? But certainly not "Charles was the only victim of the plane crash"?

I can't presume I have perfect english either, but let's see...

What I'm saying is that Mikoto was the one mostly affected by the villain's plot (while having to play the victim role), the other "victims" (if we call them that instead of casualties) were either instruments or road kills. (In the Sister's arc, it's especially heartless to call them road kills, but that's what they were)

Spoiler for oh boy, this is getting too long:

Originally Posted by desrtsku

No, no matter what she's done she was doomed to need help. That's the point of the whole thing. Same goes for Touma and the others.

Spoiler for Index spoiler:

... yeah, sure. You mean like in NT3, NT4, NT5-NT6, NT7, NT8 and freaking NT9. Oh, and Vol 3, Vol 4, Vol 18.
He didn't depend on others at all, and wasn't rescued even once (especially not Vol3, vol 18, NT4, NT5-NT6, NT7, NT8, NT9).

You're not getting what I'm saying

Spoiler for LN:

OK, I forgot about Angel Fall. That is the one instance where Touma was helpless at the end and Tsuchimikado had to step up.

The rest are not what I'm talking about. It's not that Touma solves it all on his own, in all those volumes you mentioned (save for vol. 4) Touma was helped, but he also played a vital part in ending the conflict, in Mikoto's case, she was helpless, like Touma in Angel Fall, at the end in the last two arcs (asking the Sisters for help doesn't count, as it makes them the ones who stopped the plasma) She stands up to Accelerator, but we both know she would have achieved nothing.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Yeah, you should have. And yes, it's the main issue because she clearly is not the only hero that get helped/rescued in here.

Fine, then it is a main issue. Since it's Mikoto's story, she shouldn't have as much lenience as other heroes when getting rescued.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

How so? they are victims too. Plus, there's tons of heroes in there too.

It's besides the point because all the threat on the city does is make higher stakes. Mikoto needs to be rescued to end the villain's plot.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Even if it was the case, that danger would have been suppressed by

Spoiler for Snow white spoilers:

the Old Hag's death, not really Snow White's revival.

Who'll lead the kingdom if all that is done is kill the hag? (do we need to spoiler Snow White?)

Can we move on from this example?, it's not really one I care much about.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

*cough*Justice league*cough*
No seriously, who's the main hero of things like Justice league? Depending on your answer I might say what you said above is slightly or seriously wrong giving how mainstream that thing is.

I'm not confident, but I think it works a bit like the three protagonists in TAMNI, except that there are a lot more. Each story or arc has a different main heroe, so maybe we can say the spot rotates?

Of course, I think there are some arcs there without a main heroe... You'd have to judge them separately I guess.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Now, let me continue. Staying with the rather mainstream stuffs that everyone should have in mind : Bleach, Madoka, several episode of some Precure series where some random new friends will save the heroes, pretty sure it happened a more than twice in the Sailor Moon anime, happens a lot in SNK (a whole lot).

Dunno Precure or Sailor Moon.

Bleach, like a lot of shounens, has a decent balance (and perhaps boringly cliche) of victories and defeats. It doesn't quite fit in what I'm trying to illustrate.

Madoka does fit, though it works well being a rather short story (and being kind of psychotic).

SNK... well, I've only seen the anime, and so far

Spoiler for SNK anime:

I think Eren is a failure heroe, he just can't catch a breath. Then again, I think that's no problem in an apparent horror story.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

I'm not saying it happens a lot though, just that it's not as rare as you make it seems to be.

OK, perhaps it indeed isn't as rare as I was thinking... I still don't think it fits Railgun to use it any more than it already has.