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Old 2017-03-17, 15:52   Link #541
Renegade334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
That is... DANGEROUSLY close to declaring the Dwarves as unworthy of existing, and should be exterminated for the good of Middle Earth.

Does Tolkien realised what he has written? He just declared a race as been unworthy and would be killed off because they shouldn't be there. Not because of anything they did or what they want to do, but because they dared to have been born.

I guess he is just being truthful to his religious upbringing. That genocide is okay as long as god does it.
Alright, I probably darkened the picture overmuch here, so allow me to amend my post. Eru Ilśvatar was NOT thrilled by what Aulė did, for two reasons:
1. He fashioned creatures that weren't part of the destiny-symphony. When you don't stick to your script, problems are bound to happen later on.
2. He gave them life before even the Elves and Men were awoken on Middle Earth, which is kind of galling knowing that everyone (except Melkor and his posse) was working double time to prepare the world for the two races' arrival...and Aulė just does something else completely.

However, as Aulė was about to crush his dwarf creations under his sledgehammer, Eru took pity on them and adopted this new race before putting them to sleep and compelling them to awaken MUCH later, after the Elves showed up on ME.

But this measure of mercy didn't come without something like a curse and a warning:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Silmarillion, 'Of Aulė and Yavanna' chapter
But Ilśvatar spoke again and said: ‘Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein; but in no other way will I amend thy handiwork, and as thou hast made it, so shall it be. But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth; and until that time thou and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.’

As to the Dwarves' impact on the story...well, their greed was directly responsible for the fall of the Kingdom of Doriath and the death of Elu Thingol (the only non-Ainu to have ever married a Maia), so it's not certain what would have happened had Doriath survived until the end of the Third Age and participated in the subsequent events (who knows? maybe Melian could've seen Sauron for what he truly was and prevented his rise...so many what-ifs, so many possibilities). It should nevertheless be remarked that Beleriand sank beneath the waves before the Second Age, so Doriath's ruin might've been ineluctable, or its population might've eventually been forced to migrate to the Undying Lands due to the Valar's edict.
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Last edited by Renegade334; 2017-03-17 at 16:37.
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Old 2017-03-19, 10:24   Link #542
Kyero Fox
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Saw the series for the 4th time on TV. Still don't see why they are considered awful.
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Old 2017-03-19, 12:03   Link #543
Engels
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Originally Posted by Kyero Fox View Post
Saw the series for the 4th time on TV. Still don't see why they are considered awful.
Me neither! Every time I see a dumbass comment such as ''You might disagree, but The Hobbit films were awful'', I get a string of hate following through my veins! Never mind the inherent contradiction in such an affirmation (i. e. saying someone might disagree, but then stating an OPINION as fact), but that it is proclaimed without a single justification or reason behind it.

I was even banned from a LOTR forum because I attacked multiple individuals due to their disdain for these Hobbit movies.

Last edited by Engels; 2017-03-19 at 12:26.
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Old 2017-03-19, 12:12   Link #544
Sheba
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The movies were fine, but would have worked better as a duology, less padding and elfservice.
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Old 2017-03-19, 12:44   Link #545
Engels
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
The movies were fine, but would have worked better as a duology, less padding and elfservice.
I don't get it. If the padding or 'elfservice' are good, then why more of it isn't better? This ''excess'' mentality is something I don't get. ''The Hobbit trilogy is excessive''... but if it's an excess of a good thing, then it's a non-issue. Those people should explain WHY those elements are bad (so that the ''excess'' of it would be something objectionable).

But I get that that is your opinion. I should respect it, but I just would like to understand it.

Last edited by Engels; 2017-03-19 at 13:16.
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Old 2017-03-19, 13:20   Link #546
Engels
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I just remembered, and therefore would like to add, that PJ and the other screenwriters are big fans of Elves, so it's not surprising that there is ''elfservice''. It was already there in Lord of the Rings; it just got even more prominent in The Hobbit.
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Old 2017-03-19, 13:48   Link #547
Kafriel
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Quote:
I don't get it. If the padding or 'elfservice' are good, then why more of it isn't better? This ''excess'' mentality is something I don't get. ''The Hobbit trilogy is excessive''... but if it's an excess of a good thing, then it's a non-issue. Those people should explain WHY those elements are bad (so that the ''excess'' of it would be something objectionable).
The entire point of the Hobbit was having an adventure of a different kind. It ended up becoming a battlefield of glorified slaughter, entirely missing the point of its origins. It's still a great movie, just a bad adaptation of a book - there's a great difference between the two.

As for taking things out of JRRT's work and extrapolating it in real life...the author states in the prologue of "the fellowship of the ring" that he does NOT want people to think that way (p.13-14). It is a work of pure fiction and as such, shouldn't be used to make comparisons to actual situations.
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Old 2017-03-19, 20:07   Link #548
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engels View Post
I don't get it. If the padding or 'elfservice' are good, then why more of it isn't better? This ''excess'' mentality is something I don't get. ''The Hobbit trilogy is excessive''... but if it's an excess of a good thing, then it's a non-issue. Those people should explain WHY those elements are bad (so that the ''excess'' of it would be something objectionable).

But I get that that is your opinion. I should respect it, but I just would like to understand it.
The main issue is that the script was clearly not intended as a trilogy. The 2nd film was simply not self-contained, with most of the payoff delayed to the third film and not having enough substance in itself. So it's not that the film is too long, but that the 2nd film cut off at a very bad time.
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Old 2017-03-20, 01:30   Link #549
Darthtabby
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While I don't necessarily agree with every criticism, this struck a cord with me, probably because I was literally wondering "how much longer is this?" in the lead up to the movie's climax. The audience should be excited at that point in the film, not exhausted.

I also found parts of the films too over the top -the escape from the goblins in the first film and the the stuff with Smaug in the mines in the second. Granted I find the action in a lot of modern films too over the top for my taste.

I haven't seen the third film yet. I'd probably rather rewatch The Fellowship of the Ring.

I think there's a lot to be said for keeping it relatively simple and being focused when making an adventure film.
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Old 2017-03-20, 02:07   Link #550
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
I haven't seen the third film yet. I'd probably rather rewatch The Fellowship of the Ring.
The third film is basically needed to understand the second. I understand your reasons for not wanting to finish it, but the third film really did make things better.
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Old 2017-03-20, 17:46   Link #551
GDB
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I didn't think the length was a problem either until I watched the fan edit that cut out side fluff like Gandalf's adventures away from the dwarves (which, while good, really had nothing to do with what was happening in the Hobbit itself) and as much elf love stuff as they could.

The narrative was just so much stronger without those tangential stories.
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Old 2017-03-21, 13:38   Link #552
Engels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The main issue is that the script was clearly not intended as a trilogy. The 2nd film was simply not self-contained, with most of the payoff delayed to the third film and not having enough substance in itself. So it's not that the film is too long, but that the 2nd film cut off at a very bad time.
I don't know, I thought all 3 movies had self-contained stories while telling a much larger story, just like LOTR.
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Old 2017-03-21, 22:24   Link #553
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Engels View Post
I don't know, I thought all 3 movies had self-contained stories while telling a much larger story, just like LOTR.
The end of the 2nd film left a bad taste in my mouth. There is nothing self contained about it because every story conflict raised in it was left unresolved.
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