Code Geass R2 - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[FuzzyWuzzy]

We really won't know whether Rollo killed Shirley or not till the next episode.
Does Rollo have a motive? Yes! It's the only thing that is pointing the finger on him.
However, there is no evidence that he killed her.
NO FING EVIDENCE!!!! NOTHING!! NADA!!!

When I say evidence, I really mean evidence. Not circumstantial evidence. Hard facts with indisputable proof. Unless we get a confirmation or see the murder weapon, it's really just a guessing game right now.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

We really won't know whether Rollo killed Shirley or not till the next episode.
Does Rollo have a motive? Yes! It's the only thing that is pointing the finger on him.
However, there is no evidence that he killed her.
NO FING EVIDENCE!!!! NOTHING!! NADA!!!

When I say evidence, I really mean evidence. Not circumstantial evidence. Hard facts with indisputable proof. Unless we get a confirmation or see the murder weapon, it's really just a guessing game right now.

The murder weapon was probably the gun Shirley is still holding. If Shirley was shot from behind, she would have been face first to the ground, not face up (life Euphie did by being shot up FRONT.) We go from Shirley saying Nunnally's name, to Rolo looking pissed, to the mask falling, to the locket all which shows that Rolo did it. We know he hates people that get too close to Lelouch and is extremely jealous of them. If he didn't do it, then the person that did do it would have been caught in his Geass at the very least and the problem would have been solved. Only TWO other people could have done it and gotten out of Rolo's Geass. Jeremiah, but he didn't have a gun or V.V., except he was dealing with Cornelia and Bartley. How much more evidence do you need?

[ashesatdusk]

The murder weapon was probably the gun Shirley is still holding. If Shirley was shot from behind, she would have been face first to the ground, not face up (life Euphie did by being shot up FRONT.) We go from Shirley saying Nunnally's name, to Rolo looking pissed, to the mask falling, to the locket all which shows that Rolo did it. We know he hates people that get too close to Lelouch and is extremely jealous of them. If he didn't do it, then the person that did do it would have been caught in his Geass at the very least and the problem would have been solved. Only TWO other people could have done it and gotten out of Rolo's Geass. Jeremiah, but he didn't have a gun or V.V., except he was dealing with Cornelia and Bartley. How much more evidence do you need?

This is why precisely why I don't think so. If it so obvious, why don't they show it directly. Its a pretty common plot device, have all evidence point that its X, then reveal its really Z. and Code Geass has been doing been using this whole of R2. Just when X is supposed to happen, X doesn't happens but Z happens.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by ashesatdusk

This is why precisely why I don't think so. If it so obvious, why don't they show it directly. Its a pretty common plot device, have all evidence point that its X, then reveal its really Z. and Code Geass has been doing been using this whole of R2. Just when X is supposed to happen, X doesn't happens but Z happens.

In the end we just end up in circles on this. It gets split between believing Rollo can't have done it because everything is pointing to it. And the side that has Rollo doing it and not showing it is just to make people over think what happened. Until the next episode airs neither side will give up on their position. Good arguments without the definite answer can only take you so far.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by ashesatdusk

This is why precisely why I don't think so. If it so obvious, why don't they show it directly. Its a pretty common plot device, have all evidence point that its X, then reveal its really Z. and Code Geass has been doing been using this whole of R2. Just when X is supposed to happen, X doesn't happens but Z happens.

You see, this is not really that true. I said it before, but I think it fits to say it again. The obvious solution seems to happen more often than you realize.

Kallen's capture? What was speculated? Mindwipe? A rescue? Torture? Being used to change sides? Nope. The obvious happened. Nunnally comes to the rescue because she is in that position.

People said the same thing with Shirley's death. "It's too obvious to happen!" Then the next episode she dies.

Jeremiah's goals? It is kinda obvious that he would join Lelouch if he ever found out that he was doing this for someone he had immense respect for and who he failed to protect.

Nunnally saying Zero's methods were wrong throwing Lelouch for a mind screw. Did anyone expect that? It was sure obvious...

I could go on and on with examples. We have all been lured in constantly by Sunrise with our speculations and we are continually thrown off when the obvious DOES happen. I know I was for... 90% of the time the obvious happens because I never expect the obvious (till now.) I don't think Sunrise is trying to even HIDE this case though. Someone needs to find SOMETHING to say that it isn't Rolo besides "it is too obvious." It just isn't good enough for me. Who else could it have been?

[Rising Dragon]

If you people are still going on about the obviousness of it, of how Rolo not killing her would be a plot twist...

... let me remind you that we already had our plot twist of the arc with Jeremiah siding with Lelouch.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

If you people are still going on about the obviousness of it, of how Rolo not killing her would be a plot twist...

... let me remind you that we already had our plot twist of the arc with Jeremiah siding with Lelouch.

Dragon, that wasn't exactly a twist, at least to those well-versed in CG lore. These guys knew that once Orange-sama had confirmed the identity of Lulu as his mother's son, he will join him, without question.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Dragon, that wasn't exactly a twist, at least to those well-versed in CG lore. These guys knew that once Orange-sama had confirmed the identity of Lulu as his mother's son, he will join him, without question.

I'm sure Sunrise assumed not most of the fans would not have followed the sound and picture dramas that would reveal this information--I sure as hell didn't--so it'd come as a surprise and a "plot twist" to a whole lot of us, myself included.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I'm sure Sunrise assumed not most of the fans would not have followed the sound and picture dramas that would reveal this information--I sure as hell didn't--so it'd come as a surprise and a "plot twist" to a whole lot of us, myself included.

I guess you can put it that way. Either way, it makes sense in whichever order you watch those two pieces.

[PzIVf3]

It could be Suzaku he can figure it out that Lelouch memory restored when they talking about catching Athrun at the top of the towers. I think Suzaku wants to make even from Lulu did to Euphie.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

It could be Suzaku he can figure it out that Lelouch memory restored when they talking about catching Athrun at the top of the towers. I think Suzaku wants to make even from Lulu did to Euphie.

This is like the third time this came up and it does NOT fit for more than one reason.

First, that is NOT Suzaku's character. If he really hated Zero/Lelouch, he could have killed him not only when he captured him, but also caused the massacre with the 1 million Zero's, not stop Nina from stabbing him.

Second, Suzaku would NOT harm someone he considers a friend. He hates losing people just as much as Lelouch does. Sukzaku also doesn't go around killing people. Not his style.

Third, he wants to talk to Lelouch to find out what really happened with Euphie. He is still sore about it, but his rage is gone. heck, he has to remind himself that he is supposed to hate Lelouch.

Fourth, Shirley pretty much told him that being forgiving is not impossible and that seemed to register a bit with Suzaku.

Fifth, Suzaku was coordinating fire fighters and police at the time. He wouldn't even be in the area where Rolo and Shirley were.

Sixth, he STILL would have been stopped by Rolo's Geass.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Alright, I wrote this before the above post, and just realized I'd forgotten to address one of the other most common criticisms. For all you people complaining about the plot's 'pacing', seriously, get over yourselves. Code Geass is a breakneck show, with dozens of plot threads running all at once, many resolving each episode in mere seconds of screentime and just as many being introduced at the same time. Don't delude yourselves with preconcieved notions that plot threads must take so-and-so much time to resolve themselves; Code Geass regularly changes the whole picture with one or two single lines. Just take for example how hyped up you guys all got about Lelouch's intermediary 'world stage'--then Lelouch just blurts out, half an episode from what could have been the end of the Chinese conflict, that once he'd taken China 'all conditions for confronting Britannia' would be cleared. There's no fucking hurry; now that we've got an inkling of V.V. and Charles' true goals, it doesn't even look like the destruction of Britannia will be a focus anyway. Twelve episodes is more than enough to blow all our feeble minds: I'll bet that we haven't got a clue yet on half of the plot issues 'Sunrise will need to address'.

Anyway, what was I saying? Ah yes, Shirley: she's worth twice all of those scenes and more. Even empirically, y'know, those 'filler episodes' usually end up having double the instances of more significant plot development than the beam and harken spamming 'non-filler' ones.

/end edit.

The second thing is, why the hell are half the posts here debating that Rolo 'caused Shirley's death? "It's too easy"? Wtf? Maybe the fact that the perpetrator's identity is so obvious is because they wanted to indicate with complete certainty that Rolo was the one who did it? He's got the motive, he's got the opportunity, he's even got the modus operandi (refer to Rolo's political assassination from Turn 04 for precisely what he pulled on Shirley. This case is open and closed, and there's nothing else to it.

Man I could not agree more with everything you've said here. I'm not sure when some people suddenly appointed themselves experts on how Code Geass' plot should progress (and script writing in general), but it's true, they did. The problem is that this is not that type of show where there are strict rules on how plot, character and setting development are to be carried out. There's no source material here but the creators own vision.

And I don't know why anybody would speculate it's not Rolo. He's clearly hated her since episode 09 and was just looking for any excuse to get rid of her. Plus there would be no way to explain the whole mask falling off thing that seems to indicate his true colours coming out. Those of a cold blooded assassin.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

And I don't know why anybody would speculate it's not Rolo. He's clearly hated her since episode 09 and was just looking for any excuse to get rid of her. Plus there would be no way to explain the whole mask falling off thing that seems to indicate his true colours coming out. Those of a cold blooded assassin.

True, true.
And gee, i can't stand him being on the OP all sugar-coated and stuff, meh.
Poor Shirley, if only she knew that Nunally is the red code on a bad way. ;__;

[Crontica]

Sigh.. while i really dont want to pin this on rollo since it would be too easy, but the evidence and speculations are just too strong, unless a crazy twist like C.C being the one who threatened rollo at the scene causing the accident hes pretty much doomed.

[KholdStare]

Wow, I don't usually go to this forum but I came on this occasion just to give this episode a ten. What I just watched was truly entertainment.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Crontica

Sigh.. while i really dont want to pin this on rollo since it would be too easy, but the evidence and speculations are just too strong, unless a crazy twist like C.C being the one who threatened rollo at the scene causing the accident hes pretty much doomed.

This comment of it "being too easy" reminded me of a character in the Zetsubou Sensei anime. Mayo Mitama is a schoolgirl with evil-looking eyes. But because she look evil, no one actually believe she is. As such, Mayo has been known to smash people over their heads with with a brick in broad daylight, and no one would suspect her. Even when she is still holding the blood-stained brick and indeed, kept on bashing.

By being "obvious", Mayo was never accused of committing any of the numerous crimes she did.

In a few episodes, if Nunnally is lying in a pool of her own blood and Rollo is standing there with a grin on his face, I am sure Rollo supporters would say that Rollo is still innocent. After all, there is even more evidence that he is homicidal, so he must be even more innocent!

More evidence = less guilty? Guess it does happen with people. I thought Zetsubou Sensei was joking, but I thought wrong.

[miroku2192]

Evidence pointing at Rolo as killer:

1) His locket
2) Him going all when he heard "lulu's sister nunally"
3) his mask falling (symbolizing he's something more than what he appears to be...a crazy geass assassin)
4) Oh come on if it were someone else...just why? why would they shoot shirley?
5) IF it were someone else, don't you think shirley would say "omg i got shot by rivalz"
6) IF it were Rolo who shot her, it'd make sense she wouldn't say anything because one second she'd be looking at Rolo saying "letz go help lulu" and the next she'd be on the ground looking at the ceiling with blood splurting out of her stomach...
7) and the whole "because it seems too obvious, rolo can't be the killer because they want to surprise us?"...how about reverse psychology? they figured you'd think like that, but in fact, the real answer was what appeared to be the most obvious choice? Duh

hope that helps sum up all the points/evidence, if possible, please prove me wrong

[Anh_Minh]

Now for a challenge: imagine Nunally being stabbed, with the knife hilt still protruding from her chest. She's bleeding, but her eyes indicate that time has stopped for her. So do the eyes of her bodyguards. To complete the tableau, imagine Rolo's hand wrapped around the knife hilt. Do you believe:
- Somebody else stabbed her. Rolo just happened to pass by, and is preparing to pull the knife out to give her first aid. He used his geass as a makeshift anaesthetic.
- He friggin stabbed Nunnaly!

[x81ublu8x]

Also it seems like a crime of passion so his assassins training could've been dulled/temporarily forgotten, but that also raisers another question of how many times was she shot because if it was a crime of passion he would have likely shot her multiple times.

[miroku2192]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Now for a challenge: imagine Nunally being stabbed, with the knife hilt still protruding from her chest. She's bleeding, but her eyes indicate that time has stopped for her. So do the eyes of her bodyguards. To complete the tableau, imagine Rolo's hand wrapped around the knife hilt. Do you believe:
- Somebody else stabbed her. Rolo just happened to pass by, and is preparing to pull the knife out to give her first aid. He used his geass as a makeshift anaesthetic.
- He friggin stabbed Nunnaly!

honestly the first choice would be the best...but frick, he's such a maniac im pretty sure he'd be the one to stab nunally, get away with it, and then go carress a very sad and emoitional lulu and tell him that he will be there for lulu 4eva and evA