Character Discussion - Shirley

[Tr3adst0ne]

I was thinking of a joke in reference to a conversation (either in this thread or another one) concerning Shirzaku, specifically pertaining to the former. Perhaps we should dub her move Shirzaku squared or some other funny tagline. XD

[yezhanquan]

Shir-li may be more punny.

But, Villetta's conversations with Shirley would have more of those "mysterious foreshadowing" which we associate with Rose.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Haha, the thing is though, that Rolo was a delusional little prick so even if his bullshit alarm sounded he would have just ignored it anyway. Even if Rolo had just heard Lelouch screaming in despair over Shirley's death, from his perspective there's no way Lelouch could ever disapprove of or not love him, right? (*rolls eyes*) so of course Lelouch's smile was real.

Ha ha, well considering Rolo still believed Lelouch loved him even after he cussed him out in Turn 19, I don't think that's a far stretch at all

But yeah, as far as Lelouch's reaction to Shirley's death and Rolo not hearing his scream...well, I think that's the least of R2's problems.

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Looking at this latest anti-Rolo barrage, I'm wondering how I can weave some Street Fighter skills into the 3 CG characters who have voices in SF4. Chuck having psycho powers is a nice touch, while Villetta with Rose's powers is plausible. But, Shirley and kicks.....

May need more work. Still, Shirley doing a Hosenka on Rolo is pretty awesome, me think.

Reminds of this little skit I did a while back where Shirley copies Sanji's (from One Piece) Diable Jambe attack and kicks the sh*t out of Rolo.

[yezhanquan]

Oh, Hosenka is really beautiful, just like the flower itself. (Hosenka is balsam in Japanese.)

[Nobodyman9]

All right, that's it. I can only go without talking about Shirley for so long.

This is a topic that's been discussed before, but I wish to bring it up again. With the release of the Zero Requiem DVD, or perhaps even before that, we came to realize that Shirley and Rolo supposedly were Lelouch's main motivation for Zero Requiem and that said ZR "gave meaning" to their deaths. Now I'm not gonna get into Rolo since this is, you know, the Shirley Thread. But as far as Shirley goes, well...I just don't see how Zero Requiem gives meaning to her death.

Frankly, I don't see how you can give meaning to her death. It's not like Shirley was really fighting for anything or she had some kind of distinct goal in mind that she wasn't able to accomplish during her life. All she wanted was to love and be with Lelouch and be the one thing that was true to him, and she died as a result of terrible luck and Lelouch's own ignorance. To me it just seems that Shirley was a nice girl who lived comfortably for most of her life, and then come into her 17th year Rolo, or Lelouch, or the Geass, or Villetta, or Mao, or Fate, or the Powers that be, or O&T, or maybe all of the above just pissed in her eye. Not much to it.

But back to Zero Requiem. Now, granted it wasn't all done JUST for Shirley, but supposedly she was a very big motivator for it and, as I said, it was supposed to bring meaning to her death. So would anyone care to explain to me how that works? How exactly does taking over the world and killing countless thousands, albeit to create the persona of a horrible brutish dictator and thus have all the hatred of the world focused on him, only to be killed and thus bringing peace and prosperity to the world, which Shirley, while I'm sure she wouldn't mind having, was never seen to have much stake in, and who I am sure would vastly disagree with his methods of doing so, bring meaning to her death?

Now maybe I'm just ignorant. Maybe I'm just a stubborn stupid blockhead who is so obsessed with the unfairness of Shirley's death that I can't open my eyes to truth. And maybe I'm just so freakin' mad at those ice-cold-blooded SOBs Okouchi and Taniguchi, whom I would love to have 10 minutes alone with a crowbar and a blowtorch, to the extent that I just can't see any justification for what they did. Even so, I would love it if someone could shed some light on the situation for me.

Much obliged.

[Tr3adst0ne]

Chill out Gordon Freeman. This time is not your crowbar time (unless you want to unleash scuttlebugs well I'll leave that up to you). XD

I don't know. While her death was the spark that pretty much incurred Lelouch's wrath against everybody else was something out of emotional impulse and situational convenience. He mentioned himself that Geass is a sin that must be purged from existence.

Shirley was the embodiment of all things honest and good (except for the instances in which she shot Viletta and him afterwards). Regardless if she had no stake or not, I think giving her death meaning was something more of a feeling of self-satisfaction knowing (or at least presume to know) that others will no longer suffer under the constant weight of being pushed around by the empire, if that makes any sense.

[Sol Falling]

In terms of the general ideology behind Zero Requiem, I think Shirley is most connected to the 'tomorrow' aspect of it. Her most relevant quote with regards to this are those ending lines in Stage 14: because the sun will rise again, it is not necessary to keep bearing one's burdens in one's heart. Actually, as a side note, I think even Shirley's whole 'forgiveness' line to Suzaku was merely an extension of this ideology: Shirley doesn't believe in forgiving anything, and simply allowing others to hurt her, but rather in the idea that if there is hope and a desire for reconciliation, then it is better to believe in it.

Also, hey, I just realized: the 'morning' and 'sun will rise again' symbology actually fits rather neatly into the 'reincarnation' concept. Because, after all, the rotation which brings out the sun again also leads the day to darkness, and so on for eternity. Before, I'd only focused on the 'light after darkness' motif, but reincarnation/the sun rising actually suggests a cycle.

Anyway, so going on: Shirley died believing in hope (reincarnation). From a personal perspective, she was tried and failed to grant Lelouch happiness, but ideologically, we could concievably say she managed to convey the message of hope. So I guess this is where Zero: Requiem comes in: Lelouch delivers Shirley's 'hope' to the world. Bringing forth a new dawn, Lelouch wiped clear the burdens of the past (both material and emotional; it is a question to me whether or not Shirley actually believed in 'putting an end to' material burdens as well, though she certainly did for emotional ones) so that the world could look to the future with a clean slate. However, I like to think that the 'death' part of Zero: Requiem also reflected the failure of Shirley's hope (per 'reincarnation'). Fundamentally, I am attracted to the romantic notion of Lelouch dying to join Shirley in death, so...lol. I.e., as Shirley's life failed to rise again after falling into darkness, Lelouch could not release from his heart the burden of her loss and so he joined her in death.

Anyway, as you can see, I'm still not really convinced about this whole 'reincarnation' thing. Personally I found it kind of sad and ridiculous, so I'm not sure Lelouch really found a message in it as well. As such, other interpretations for how Zero: Requiem supposedly gave Shirley's death 'meaning' would be pretty good for me too (lol or maybe I just don't want to admit it either :P ).

[Paladinoras]

Never did find what Zero Requiem had to do with Shirley's death...

I mean, kind and caring world for Nunally, check

Rolo giving his life for a Lulu who thinks of himself as worthless, so prove that he is worthy after all, check

Shirley giving his life for....ehh...

His death was just well...bad luck.

As far as I can interpret, I think that Lelouch wants to make a world where wars no longer take place, so there is no more hate and deception in the world, and no more unnecessary victims like Shirley will appear.

Pretty far out there.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Tr3adst0ne

He mentioned himself that Geass is a sin that must be purged from existence.

See, this is another thing that really gets on my nerves. After Shirley's death, Lelouch and the staff go on about how the geass is an evil that must be abolished and Shirley who lived by the geass died by the geass.

Bullshit.

Shirley was the victim of human actions. True, perhaps the geass is an inherently wrong or evil power (actually, it almost certainly is) but that wasn't the main cause of Shirley's death and suffering. Shirley because she inadvertantly got roped into Lelouch's whole secret life and then got in way over her head. The problem is Lelouch was ignorant and neglectful and was too fargone in his ego-maniacal revolutions and self-gratification to do anything about the fact that he was destroying her life.

Shirley was the embodiment of all things honest and good (except for the instances in which she shot Viletta and him afterwards). Regardless if she had no stake or not, I think giving her death meaning was something more of a feeling of self-satisfaction knowing (or at least presume to know) that others will no longer suffer under the constant weight of being pushed around by the empire, if that makes any sense.

Well, it's not like Shirley was being pushed around by the Empire (save Villetta) Again, making a plan to reach that end would be better suited for honoring the Japanese and the thousands killed during Britannia's tyrannical regime. It didn't have much to do with Shirley.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

In terms of the general ideology behind Zero Requiem, I think Shirley is most connected to the 'tomorrow' aspect of it. Her most relevant quote with regards to this are those ending lines in Stage 14: because the sun will rise again, it is not necessary to keep bearing one's burdens in one's heart. Actually, as a side note, I think even Shirley's whole 'forgiveness' line to Suzaku was merely an extension of this ideology: Shirley doesn't believe in forgiving anything, and simply allowing others to hurt her, but rather in the idea that if there is hope and a desire for reconciliation, then it is better to believe in it.

Also, hey, I just realized: the 'morning' and 'sun will rise again' symbology actually fits rather neatly into the 'reincarnation' concept. Because, after all, the rotation which brings out the sun again also leads the day to darkness, and so on for eternity. Before, I'd only focused on the 'light after darkness' motif, but reincarnation/the sun rising actually suggests a cycle.

Anyway, so going on: Shirley died believing in hope (reincarnation). From a personal perspective, she was tried and failed to grant Lelouch happiness, but ideologically, we could concievably say she managed to convey the message of hope. So I guess this is where Zero: Requiem comes in: Lelouch delivers Shirley's 'hope' to the world. Bringing forth a new dawn, Lelouch wiped clear the burdens of the past (both material and emotional; it is a question to me whether or not Shirley actually believed in 'putting an end to' material burdens as well, though she certainly did for emotional ones) so that the world could look to the future with a clean slate. However, I like to think that the 'death' part of Zero: Requiem also reflected the failure of Shirley's hope (per 'reincarnation'). Fundamentally, I am attracted to the romantic notion of Lelouch dying to join Shirley in death, so...lol. I.e., as Shirley's life failed to rise again after falling into darkness, Lelouch could not release from his heart the burden of her loss and so he joined her in death.

Anyway, as you can see, I'm still not really convinced about this whole 'reincarnation' thing. Personally I found it kind of sad and ridiculous, so I'm not sure Lelouch really found a message in it as well. As such, other interpretations for how Zero: Requiem supposedly gave Shirley's death 'meaning' would be pretty good for me too (lol or maybe I just don't want to admit it either :P ).

Hmm, I like that idea. I'm not sure if that's what the staff was going for, but I think it's a really nice idea. Thing is, if a good part of Zero Requiem really was motivated by Shirley then I really would've liked if they'd gone more in depth to it. But yeah, you always make it sound so good Sol

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Never did find what Zero Requiem had to do with Shirley's death...

I mean, kind and caring world for Nunally, check

Rolo giving his life for a Lulu who thinks of himself as worthless, so prove that he is worthy after all, check

Shirley giving his life for....ehh...

His death was just well...bad luck.

As far as I can interpret, I think that Lelouch wants to make a world where wars no longer take place, so there is no more hate and deception in the world, and no more unnecessary victims like Shirley will appear.

Pretty far out there.

Well that's the thing, Shirley didn't give her life, she was senselessly murdered.

And as far as Lelouch making a world without wars. Hmm, well not really. What Lelouch was basically bring in a new era of peace and prosperity throughout the world, but it was by no means a permanent fix. There's still going to be death, war and innocent victims to come in the future, but at least not for a while.

[bladeofdarkness]

one COULD argue that since lelouch discovered that everything he's been fighting for has been a lie, and that the whole world war was just a minor detail set up by his parents insane plan
then it means that all the deaths that resulted from it are also meaningless
and so he created Z-R in order to end the war and give the lives lost some meaning
but even THEN sheirly is far from a uniqe person in that regard
she was simply one of countless millions who died because of that insane war
even taking into account her importance to lelouch, its still quite a reach

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Well that's the thing, Shirley didn't give her life, she was senselessly murdered.

And as far as Lelouch making a world without wars. Hmm, well not really. What Lelouch was basically bring in a new era of peace and prosperity throughout the world, but it was by no means a permanent fix. There's still going to be death, war and innocent victims to come in the future, but at least not for a while.

That was my point. She had no reason to die, Rolo was just a jealous prick. She did not sacrifice herself for a greater cause, she did not die for a higher purpose, she just had shitty luck that she had to meet that psychopath and say the words Nunally and bring back in the same sentence.

Well, my theory was pretty far out there. As far as I am concerned, Lelouch's resolve was not shattered by Shirley's death. It affected him, yeah, but it is not gonna change his life perspective.

[Kallen4life]

he blamed himself for her death and 'atoned' with his own death .. the way i see it .. because he wanted peace, gentle world etc. way before she came into the picture and that was for Nunnally .. but after her death he figured he deserved to die as well (took it really bad .. worse then Euphie I think) + plus if he died having all the hatred on him = instant peace xD = just as planned

something

[Kallen4life]

just rewatched R2 013 a couple of times (ending) - still wept like a baby :/ .. damn, that was so shattering

that and TTGL are virtually the only animes that made me cry so far - no wonder they both are in my top @ MAL

[bladeofdarkness]

atoning for her death by killing himself makes absolutely no sense
she dies, so he also kills the one person she loves the most ?

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

That was my point. She had no reason to die, Rolo was just a jealous prick. She did not sacrifice herself for a greater cause, she did not die for a higher purpose, she just had shitty luck that she had to meet that psychopath and say the words Nunally and bring back in the same sentence.

Well, my theory was pretty far out there. As far as I am concerned, Lelouch's resolve was not shattered by Shirley's death. It affected him, yeah, but it is not gonna change his life perspective.

Well yeah. I guess if anything her death would only serve to reinforce his life perspective. It would only give him an even greater negative world view.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

just rewatched R2 013 a couple of times (ending) - still wept like a baby :/ .. damn, that was so shattering

that and TTGL are virtually the only animes that made me cry so far - no wonder they both are in my top @ MAL

Wasn't it just? I just don't understand how anyone cannot be affected by that scene.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

atoning for her death by killing himself makes absolutely no sense
she dies, so he also kills the one person she loves the most ?

Yeah, I agree. Of course, the reason Lelouch did kill himself was to atone for the sins he had made and all the people he had killed during his life, so he claims.

Of course, it may have also been that he couldn't live without her and wanted to be with her again

[SonOfHeaven]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

but after her death he figured he deserved to die as well

I would understand that if Lelouch planned to die after Shirley's death but that's not the case. Seemed to me he was still planning on continuing on his goal in the series. Even after Nunnally's so called "death" after turn 18. Seemed like he was still planning on continuing his war(Kallen showed up he was ok, got out of his emo state and put back on his zero mask) until he was betrayed and knew there was no way out.

I look at it as Shirley's death affected him because she was someone who Lelouch even during season 1 didn't want her involved with him at all(She was innocent and had no reason to get involved with him probably from his pov). When she died, he found out her memories came back and I would think he probably didn't want that to happen(He probably thought his geass on her would make everything ok). Since he knew what could happen if she remember he was Zero(Becoming very emotional and even used an gun).

Rolo's death is simple. Because of him his life was extended and Rolo gave his own life for Lelouch. Like Lelouch said himself.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

I would understand that if Lelouch planned to die after Shirley's death but that's not the case. Seemed to me he was still planning on continuing on his goal in the series. Even after Nunnally's so called "death" after turn 18. Seemed like he was still planning on continuing his war until he was betrayed and knew there was no way out.

Well, it's just one of those things where sometimes it's hard to get a reading on Lelouch. I think we can safely say that Shirley's death was pretty much the start of Lelouch's downfall. With her death his Ashford was pretty much over, but he still had Nunnally and he still wanted revenge on his father and find out who killed his mother. After Nunnally died, vengeance was pretty much all Lelouch had left and then everythink came together really fast. After that, with Nunnally "dead" and a mountain of sin on his shoulders he decided the only thing left was Zero Requiem.

So could Lelouch have moved on if things had turned out a little differently? That is, if Nunnally hadn't "died" and if the BK hadn't betrayed, but Shirley was still dead? Possibly, but I still think it would be quite hard for him. Of course, I think this was an inherent flaw in Lelouch's plan from the beginning. He did all this so he could live a happy life in a peaceful world with his sister Nunnally. But how can he live a happy life after committing such atrocities? Well, long story short, he didn't.

I look at it as Shirley's death affected him because she was someone who Lelouch even during season 1 didn't want her involved with him at all(She was innocent and had no reason to get involved with him probably from his pov). When she died, he found out her memories came back and I would think he probably didn't want that to happen(He probably thought his geass on her would make everything ok). Since he knew what could happen if she remember he was Zero(Becoming very emotional and even used an gun).

Well, that's all pretty obvious. Yes, she was an innocent person that he didn't want to get involved, but the same could be said for the rest of the SC (except for Nina at the end) as well as Nunnally. They focused on Shirley for a reason. I think, yes, part of it was to show how Lelouch's action could have terrible affects on the people he cared about, but I think it was more than that. I think there was definitely some kind of deep connection between the two.

[Nobodyman9]

Sorry for the double post, but we all need to be reminded of the beauty (and tragedy) of Shirlulu now and then.

BTW, Shirlulu is canon. Canon because it's so beautiful

[Knightrunner]

Like the amv that was posted.

Shirley's fate was very tragic. I wonder how her classmates reacted. At the very least the writers should have shown a time of mourning from the Ashford Academy School Board.

I hope Shirley's mom will be able to move on. It was kind of sad how she thinks her daughter commited suicide while the father died by being buried alive.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Like the amv that was posted.

Shirley had a really tragic fate. I wonder how her classmates reacted. The writers should have shown a time of mourning from the Ashford Academy School board at the very least.

Well, the most we got was her actual funeral scene and we could clearly see that Rivalz and Milly were deeply saddened by her death. Not that we got much more than that. Still, afterwards they did seem to be taking relatively well that one of their best friends was dead (and apparently by suicide, no less).

I hope Shirleys mom will be able to move on. It is kind of sad how she thinks her daughter commited suicide while the father died by being buried alive.

Like I've always said, Shirley's mother is quite possibly even more unfortunate than Shirley. I mean, the woman loses her husband and daughter, quite possibly the only family she has in the world, in about the span of a year. The last we see of her is her sobbing at her daughter's grave. I mean, I know she wasn't an important character or anything, but I really wish we could've known what happened to her.

Oh, also Fumiko Orikasa doesn't appear to be on the "guest list" for the live action final PD. Meaning she probably won't be there with the rest of the cast and thus it seems doubtful Shirley will have an appearance. Thoughts?