AnimeSuki Forums

Heatth · 2010-07-17, 08:51

Kanon=Battler do not explain Kanon leaving the Cousin Room, tough. Battler, is the only character not refereed by name, so, for that to work, Kano must be called 'you'.

winter 923 · 2010-07-17, 08:57

jep that is what i feared. can we just use yo(u) from yoshiya?

nevermind it would be something like anta or omae anyway. looking at the names to play around atm.

Heatth · 2010-07-17, 09:28

Pretty nice. But how Kanon escaped from the Cousin Room?And why exactly you are proposing Shannon to be Erika? Finally, Shannon was accounted as inside the Next Room Over when Erika was already outside it.

chounokoe · 2010-07-17, 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by winter 923

it was not stated in red! actually let me rephrase that. it was never stated WHERE kinzo is. just because he is dead does not mean he is nowhere. and erika exluded him from the word "everyone"

I still believe Kinzo is dead, but I too believe that he is somewhere on the island.
I would even go as far and say that he is somewhere in the mansion, where he was found during Episode 4...before his body could be put into the incinerator.
They just said that they recognized Kinzo...even a corpse can be recognized if he has something (like his 6th toe) that makes him recognizable.

I do not believe that anybody on the island is Kinzo at the moment of the game. To gain the persona of 'Goldsmith' isn't hard, but becoming Kinzo would be breaking too many rules for my taste.

And Kanon=Battler would also be highly speculative.
That would mean that scenes like Battler, helping Kanon in the rosegarden in Episode 1 would be entirely fabricated.
It is heavily implied that Battler was able to help him, because he is bigger and stronger than Kanon. Bodily strength: Battler>Kanon.
So making them into one person would require either, a huge suspension of disbelief regarding what the people on the island see and know or and that is even more farfetched, a 2nd Battler on the island.

Kit · 2010-07-17, 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

The game ended at the time of the logic error... and who placed the letter, in that case?

I'm not sure if this is up to interpretation, but I was under the impression the game was put on HOLD at the Logic Error until Battler could figure his way out - in that case, it would've been on pause at the 1st twilight. But Beatrice figured out a way to get Battler out, so the game continued onto the 2nd twilight, in which Kanon died but managed to get Battler out. I feel like the solution hasn't broken any rules...I think lol

As for the letter, why couldn't have any of the adults or cousins dropped it on their way to the guest house? It doesn't have to be Battler that does it - the letter does not pose a closed room puzzle. Especially now that we have the advent of retroactive actions, that letter really could've been dropped by anyone.

Exilon · 2010-07-17, 09:53

Quote:

As for the letter, why couldn't have any of the adults or cousins dropped it on their way to the guest house? It doesn't have to be Battler that does it - the letter does not pose a closed room puzzle. Especially now that we have the advent of retroactive actions, that letter really could've been dropped by anyone.

It was stated somewhere in Episode 6 (by Erika, I believe) that she looked when she entered the guest house, effectively narrowing the time frame of when the letter could have been placed there to the time when Erika entered the guest house until she left.

winter 923 · 2010-07-17, 09:54

i found something.
Kanon "I made this rule myself. I'm not furniture anymore. I'm the zero in your roulette!!"
this does sound like something Kinzo would say.

Exilon · 2010-07-17, 09:58

...Kinzo actually says lots of times for Beatrice to come and let the roullete spin the way it wants. He doesn't really care if he's the zero. Also Kinzo would never say "I'm not furniture anymore".

A quick check-up, why is Kinzo=Kanon? I don't see it.

winter 923 · 2010-07-17, 10:06

Uh he always says how magic is the most impossible/profit ratio. that would be the zero.
I do not think he IS the 80year old something Kinzo. he is his sucessor. he might have found the gold or is his child. In EP4 someone clearly was aknowlaged as "Kinzo" but we did not see who because of the stupid magic scene.

There was also some strange theory that "Kinzo" and "Beatrice" must exist on rokkenjima. that would be Kanon and Shannon, both "created" by Kinzo and given a hearth

Exilon · 2010-07-17, 10:14

Quote:

In EP4 someone clearly was aknowlaged as "Kinzo" but we did not see who because of the stupid magic scene.

Possibly someone who solved the epitaph and thus became the 'head'. (head = Kinzo).

DgBarca · 2010-07-17, 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heatth

Pretty nice. But how Kanon escaped from the Cousin Room?And why exactly you are proposing Shannon to be Erika? Finally, Shannon was accounted as inside the Next Room Over when Erika was already outside it.

When Shannon was specified to be in the Next room over in red, Erika position was not checked. Moreover "everyone else except Kinzo and Erika is in the cousins' room" make a place for Kanon=Kinzo.

Durante · 2010-07-17, 11:36

I just finished reading Episode 6 and some (but not all) of this thread, so excuse me repeating anything that has been discussed to death.

I thought the shkanon theory was viable, maybe even likely, ever since the third game. It conforms with all the red text and Knox's rules, and opens up possibilities to "solve" some of the harder mysteries in each game. Because of this, my perspective is probably a bit skewed.
But to me, huge parts of Episode 6 seem to be outright designed to support that theory. That includes both red and normal text, and both mystery and fantasy scenes. Actually some of it goes one step further and allows that wonderful hodgepodge known as shkanontrice.

At this point, the main reason I see to doubt shkanon is purely meta (talking about Umineko, maybe I should call it meta-meta): it's too blindingly obvious.

chounokoe · 2010-07-17, 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exilon

Possibly someone who solved the epitaph and thus became the 'head'. (head = Kinzo).

Does it say anywhere that the one being acknowledged as Kinzo was alive?
I don't remember that being the case, so we could deal with a misrepresentation based on what is said.

The children acknowledge the presence of Ushiromiya Kinzo.
Someone kills half of them and imprisons the others.

As far as I remember it does not clearly state, that Ushiromiya Kinzo = Killer.
They could as well have been presented with the corpse of Ushiromiya Kinzo, acknowledged it and went on to talk with the real culprit.
The fact that we see it like Ushiromiya Kinzo = Culprit could just be a deliberate misinterpretation of Hachijô Tôya's book or just something that she spun around it.

Renall · 2010-07-17, 11:59

The letter could have been placed by one of the five "re-killed" victims, so long as they returned to their waiting place and re-faked their death by the time Erika arrived to murder them.

k//eternal · 2010-07-17, 12:01

I don't believe that Kinzo being alive was stated, hence my thought that they were presented with Kinzo's will or something to that effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

Honestly the longer I mull it over the more I want to answer "Who cares? They sucked." I'm pretty sick of some of the board's least compelling characters and relationships getting shoved in my face like I'm supposed to care. Give me two minutes of Krauss and Natsuhi over any amount of George/Shannon. Or Kanon/Jessica. Or Battler/Beatrice honestly. Hell, I think the lesbian undertones with Dlanor and Erika are more compelling.

Truth is, it's a bit annoying to me also that Shkanontrice is apparently a player exceeding even Rudolf (at least he doesn't crossdress or give people false expectations), and yet would definitely be slated for a "good end" of some sort or another. Yeah, there's all that "furniture" angst, but suck it up, it's your own damn fault.

Not to mention that in that context... Battler's "sin"? How about not getting into several romances and then blaming it on him?

winter 923 · 2010-07-17, 12:04

Durante i would read this:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...56#post3145156

It shows that Shkannontrice was not that far off but still to easy to see.

chounokoe: i do not think you will find this in red. Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games! Kinzo needs to be dead or else Kanon could not heredity Kinzo's name. Beatrice stated that in the beginning of EP4 or else the appearence of "Kinzo" would be considered "strange, but normal" i think the Blue about the heredity did not get denied.

chronotrig · 2010-07-17, 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

The letter could have been placed by one of the five "re-killed" victims, so long as they returned to their waiting place and re-faked their death by the time Erika arrived to murder them.

That doesn't work out, time-wise. Erika killed them (or so we are led to believe) back when she first inspected the corpses. After that, she went to the guesthouse and confirmed that there was no letter by the front door. Then the letter appeared. So the five victims couldn't have placed the letter there.

Renall · 2010-07-17, 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by chronotrig

That doesn't work out, time-wise. Erika killed them (or so we are led to believe) back when she first inspected the corpses. After that, she went to the guesthouse and confirmed that there was no letter by the front door. Then the letter appeared. So the five victims couldn't have placed the letter there.

Then Kanon did it.

I don't recall Erika stating she immediately ran back to the mansion, killed everyone, then went to check the letter. That seems improbable and quite cheap. Are we allowing the declaration of retroactive moves regardless of the temporal and spatial sense they make now?

Jan-Poo · 2010-07-17, 13:19

Can we exclude that the letter was placed by anyone among the people in the guesthouse?

Was Erika the last who crossed the door?
Did Erika check that Krauss or someone else didn't put the letter while she was busy talking to Rudolf and Hideyoshi?

Moogleking · 2010-07-17, 14:22

About the letter, Erika checked that spot after Krauss and the others had gone around checking the windows.

This means it had to have been placed by someone who wasn't in one of the rooms Erika thought they were.

2010-07-17, 11:59	Link #3334
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	The letter could have been placed by one of the five "re-killed" victims, so long as they returned to their waiting place and re-faked their death by the time Erika arrived to murder them. __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error

2010-07-17, 13:19	Link #3339
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Can we exclude that the letter was placed by anyone among the people in the guesthouse? Was Erika the last who crossed the door? Did Erika check that Krauss or someone else didn't put the letter while she was busy talking to Rudolf and Hideyoshi? __________________

2010-07-17, 08:51	Link #3321
Heatth Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Brasil Age: 33	Kanon=Battler do not explain Kanon leaving the Cousin Room, tough. Battler, is the only character not refereed by name, so, for that to work, Kano must be called 'you'.

2010-07-17, 08:57	Link #3322
winter 923 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	jep that is what i feared. can we just use yo(u) from yoshiya? nevermind it would be something like anta or omae anyway. looking at the names to play around atm.

2010-07-17, 09:28	Link #3323
Heatth Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Brasil Age: 33	Pretty nice. But how Kanon escaped from the Cousin Room?And why exactly you are proposing Shannon to be Erika? Finally, Shannon was accounted as inside the Next Room Over when Erika was already outside it.

2010-07-17, 09:54	Link #3327
winter 923 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	i found something. Kanon "I made this rule myself. I'm not furniture anymore. I'm the zero in your roulette!!" this does sound like something Kinzo would say.

2010-07-17, 09:58	Link #3328
Exilon Philosopher of theories Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Portugal Age: 32	...Kinzo actually says lots of times for Beatrice to come and let the roullete spin the way it wants. He doesn't really care if he's the zero. Also Kinzo would never say "I'm not furniture anymore". A quick check-up, why is Kinzo=Kanon? I don't see it.

2010-07-17, 10:06	Link #3329
winter 923 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	Uh he always says how magic is the most impossible/profit ratio. that would be the zero. I do not think he IS the 80year old something Kinzo. he is his sucessor. he might have found the gold or is his child. In EP4 someone clearly was aknowlaged as "Kinzo" but we did not see who because of the stupid magic scene. There was also some strange theory that "Kinzo" and "Beatrice" must exist on rokkenjima. that would be Kanon and Shannon, both "created" by Kinzo and given a hearth

2010-07-17, 11:36	Link #3332
Durante Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Age: 39	I just finished reading Episode 6 and some (but not all) of this thread, so excuse me repeating anything that has been discussed to death. I thought the shkanon theory was viable, maybe even likely, ever since the third game. It conforms with all the red text and Knox's rules, and opens up possibilities to "solve" some of the harder mysteries in each game. Because of this, my perspective is probably a bit skewed. But to me, huge parts of Episode 6 seem to be outright designed to support that theory. That includes both red and normal text, and both mystery and fantasy scenes. Actually some of it goes one step further and allows that wonderful hodgepodge known as shkanontrice. At this point, the main reason I see to doubt shkanon is purely meta (talking about Umineko, maybe I should call it meta-meta): it's too blindingly obvious.

2010-07-17, 12:04	Link #3336
winter 923 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	Durante i would read this: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...56#post3145156 It shows that Shkannontrice was not that far off but still to easy to see. chounokoe: i do not think you will find this in red. Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games! Kinzo needs to be dead or else Kanon could not heredity Kinzo's name. Beatrice stated that in the beginning of EP4 or else the appearence of "Kinzo" would be considered "strange, but normal" i think the Blue about the heredity did not get denied.

2010-07-17, 14:22	Link #3340
Moogleking Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010	About the letter, Erika checked that spot after Krauss and the others had gone around checking the windows. This means it had to have been placed by someone who wasn't in one of the rooms Erika thought they were.