Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[randus]

^The idea of "fangs" goes as far back with the UC series with the Nu Gundam, Sazabi, etc. ^^

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by February

Ok I tried to request new thread but they just sent me here. Either way, I'm just going to post my opinion.

Gundam Seed was a very bad experience for me. I've watched parts of Gundam Z (long time ago, but gave up looking for sub'd episodes), Gundam Wing, Gundam X, Gundam 00, Gundam 8th MS Team, Gundam 0080/0083

When I talk about Gundam Seed, I'm also including the sequel to it: Gundam Seed Destiny as well.

There's certainly a degree of truth to your comments, but I'm a bit puzzled by some parts of them.

Originally Posted by February

1) Weak Story. I know that the story of Gundam series was not the strong point of the series but Seed's story felt like it was designed to just get-by so that it can show high-powered good action for the younger kids. It was not as political as a lot of the other Gundam stories (which I'm not arguing is a good or bad thing) but if your story is not very political, you better have a good social story. The story is rather dependent on human engineering issue: Naturals and Coordinators. It just doesn't work.

While I can agree that Seed and Destiny have weaker narratives than their plots demand, I'm not sure how notable this is since it's true of any number of other Gundam shows. In particular, I'd say that the Natural and Coordinator dichotomy rings very true - can you elaborate on why you think that this doesn't work? Finally, while Seed doesn't touch on politics all that much, I don't see how you can say the same thing about Destiny, which has more political nuance than any other Gundam show.

Originally Posted by February

2). Bad Main Character(s):

<SNIP>

Very little to no character development for Kira + Shinn. Shinn never matured up and Kira turned from arrogant (season 1) to emotionless (season 2)
I don't even understand why the author bothered to include Shinn in Season 2 if Kira would overpower Shinn, steal his season and save the World.

It's fair enough that you don't like the protagonists, but you're a bit off in claiming that there's no character development for them. True enough, Shinn doesn't mature through most of Destiny, but that's sort of the point of his character. His purpose was to be a character who made poor choices over the course of the show, and to fail at the very end. He does grow or show signs of growing in the epilogue, and that's precisely what his character arc was supposed to lead up to.

By the end of Destiny Kira was very different from what he was like at the beginning of Seed, and arguably what he was like at the beginning of Destiny, for that matter.

Originally Posted by February

3) It was way too predictable.

Fair enough, although I can't see predictability as a significant criticism.

Originally Posted by February

4) Did not have a good message. Yes, we are told that Kira is a ultimate coordinator (basically a superior human) and Shinn is just a coordinator. The fact that Kira gets labeled as an 'ultimate coordinator’ and makes Kira beat everything just gives the subliminal message that “superiority beats hard work” Hard-work is what Shinn is because he wasn’t blessed with superior ultimate genes or an overpowered gundam like Kira’s Strike Freedom. And when Kira takes down Shinn, it just tells the viewers that "People who are born as superior / ultimate will win in the end"

That wasn't the message of either show . In Seed, it was more about how we're all human, and how promoting our differences leads to conflict and destruction. In Destiny, it's about how there are no shortcuts in ending war, and that our effort to pursue goals can produce the opposite effect.

Originally Posted by February

5) Was not exciting.

Fair enough. I'll also add that the combat choreography for Seed and Destiny wasn't particularly good.

Originally Posted by February

6) Lack of proper villians and support characters. Athrun was hyped in the beginning to have a major impact because a ton of flashbacks were about him and he was the best friend to Kira, but he just died off as unimporant through the end. He was just a guy to take care of Cagalli and friend Kira. He had so much potential too.
Lacus seemed like so un-human and felt like she was soley there just to be the main character's love interest

On the contrary, while Seed and Destiny's villains might be a bit lacking (then again, almost all Gundam villains are lacking), they also have one of the strongest supporting casts of any Gundam show, and I think that what were potentially throwaway characters (Dearka, Meer) turned out to be quite interesting.

Originally Posted by February

7). Gundam in General

I agree in the sense that the Seed/Destiny Gundams were just war machines, not anything special; but I rather prefer it that way.

Originally Posted by February

+ Great Music. Gundam 00 and Seed has some of the best intro/ending/fighting music there is to offer.

Heh. Akatsuki no Kuruma is my favorite piece of Gundam music.

[Foreshadow]

WARNING: This may not make any sense at all, I'm just unloading frustration.


My Main Knocks on this series: (GSD)



1. Recycled images. My god, how many times are you going to make me watch Freedom and Justice just shoot beams and magically destroy all the enemies. I just want some sort of Variety, or something to tell me that you tried.

2. Shinn what the hell is this kid even doing in this series? Your parents died in an invasion from a different country. A homicidal country with totally biased views towards your "Type" of person (coordinators). They probably would have died regardless if Orb had surrendered. Think of situation first before blindly blaming everyone then doing the exact same to thousands of other people. Saving Stellar? She was lost to begin with, and your hesitation only killed more people. Then you take it out on the guy who stopped her. Honestly, He starts out irrational in the beginning and ends irrational until Athrun kicks his ass, then he's suddenly OK?

3. What kind of story was this? Using genes to prevent people from fighting each other? If the message of the series was free choice or give people choices, then why wouldn't it work if people were genetically changed not to fight? They just wouldn't have the choice to fight. When did the Chairman ever say they would lose their free will? Kira says if the time comes up again he'll take up guns and fight, well if everyone wouldn't fight because they knew it would be useless then nothing would happen, oh my, Kira is out of a job. If Orb (+3 ships etc) had really known the plan was to fail, and there were no shortcuts in war, then why not let it fail in the first place? What were the repercussions? They way that they reacted was it would succeed. If anything they were too hasty to go to war as a first alternative. Why? Because they didn't trust the chairman. Trust? go to war for a lack of Trust? It just meant the chairman was willing to use methods that weren't necessarily ethical. Ok the plan succeeds and Dullendal becomes their Messiah, Big Whoop. He'd command alot of influence but from his past actions it's obvious he wouldn't do anything with it. It's clear that Dullendal just wants peace.

4. The final battle: If they were so infatuated with the Chairman's plan and so many people had already participated, then what was the entire point of the three ships assaulting PLANT in the first place? Even if they had taken down PLANT the public seemed to have enough support for Dullandel that it wouldn't have mattered if he had died. Everyone else that worked under him probably weren't in Jacue Due (SP), the plan should have continued regardless of the end result. Unless Lacus is such a driving force that everybody in the galaxy would change their immediate opinions.

5. Orb: How the heck does a small island nation get so much influence? An Island nation taking down the two largest nations out there. Even if they had Morganrate, where do they get the man power? The Clyne Faction? They had just lost an entire Fleet from fighting the Minerva., but they also have a mixed population. If the Atlantic Federation was as Biased as they were portrayed as, Orb would be looked down upon by every citizen. And the moment that Orb aligned itself with the Federation all the coordinators would have been shipped off to concentration camps or killed. The Federation didn't show any hesitation in killing their own citizens did they?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

1. Recycled images.

That's a valid point.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

2. Shinn what the hell is this kid even doing in this series? Your parents died in an invasion from a different country. A homicidal country with totally biased views towards your "Type" of person (coordinators). They probably would have died regardless if Orb had surrendered. Think of situation first before blindly blaming everyone then doing the exact same to thousands of other people. Saving Stellar? She was lost to begin with, and your hesitation only killed more people. Then you take it out on the guy who stopped her. Honestly, He starts out irrational in the beginning and ends irrational until Athrun kicks his ass, then he's suddenly OK?

Shinn is a character of the moment - he bases his actions on a moment in time, and he doesn't really think through the consequences. That's part and parcel of his character, and it's really his raison d'etre.

As for his attitude towards Orb: it's an irrational reaction wherein Shinn thought that Orb had failed to live up to his image of what the country was supposed to represent. Again, thinking things through was Shinn's weakness, and it's very much what the creators were going for. One caveat is that this kind of characterization doesn't appeal to everyone, so not liking it is perfectly reasonable.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

3. What kind of story was this? Using genes to prevent people from fighting each other? If the message of the series was free choice or give people choices, then why wouldn't it work if people were genetically changed not to fight? They just wouldn't have the choice to fight. When did the Chairman ever say they would lose their free will?

The point was that Durandal's plan was incapable of working to any great degree.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

Kira says if the time comes up again he'll take up guns and fight, well if everyone wouldn't fight because they knew it would be useless then nothing would happen, oh my, Kira is out of a job. If Orb (+3 ships etc) had really known the plan was to fail, and there were no shortcuts in war, then why not let it fail in the first place? What were the repercussions?

There have been plenty of "Evil Empires" in history that were doomed to failure, and yet, it's not always a bad idea to fight against them. Moreover, the great repercussions are in the short term: the death and misery of thousands or millions of people. In the case of Destiny, the heroes might have preferred it had Durandal's plan could guarantee permanent peace, but they might have simply been realistic enough to realize that this was merely a fantasy.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

They way that they reacted was it would succeed.

Not necessarily. Orb and Lacus' forces weren't monolithic and the various characters fought for different reasons. It's overly simplistic to simply claim that all of his foes thought that he would succeed. Indeed that's a bit hard to credit since nobody appeared to be enthusiastic for it aside from a grand total of Shinn, Ray, and Durandal himself.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

If anything they were too hasty to go to war as a first alternative. Why? Because they didn't trust the chairman. Trust? go to war for a lack of Trust? It just meant the chairman was willing to use methods that weren't necessarily ethical. Ok the plan succeeds and Dullendal becomes their Messiah, Big Whoop. He'd command alot of influence but from his past actions it's obvious he wouldn't do anything with it. It's clear that Dullendal just wants peace.

War wasn't the first alternative: Orb and PLANT were already at war, with PLANT making no attempts to sue for peace. On the PLANT side, Durandal had basically declared war on Lacus and her supporters - they didn't exactly have any reason to let him live, much less let him get away with anything. As for Durandal only wanting peace; the funny thing is that that's exactly what plenty of power-hungry leaders want as well. Not conicidentally, the peace they envisioned also happened to end up with them at the top... I'm not sure why anyone would find that palatable.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

4. The final battle: If they were so infatuated with the Chairman's plan and so many people had already participated, then what was the entire point of the three ships assaulting PLANT in the first place? Even if they had taken down PLANT the public seemed to have enough support for Dullandel that it wouldn't have mattered if he had died. Everyone else that worked under him probably weren't in Jacue Due (SP), the plan should have continued regardless of the end result. Unless Lacus is such a driving force that everybody in the galaxy would change their immediate opinions.

Removing Durandal was an end unto itself. Indeed, it was the one driving rationale that united all of the Allied forces. The Destiny Plan wasn't particularly popular to begin with, and without Durandal to actively advocate it, there wouldn't be anyone who'd support it much less implement it.

Your numbers are also way off. Orb, the EA and Lacus' forces each committed more than three ships, and their target wasn't even PLANT - it was REQUIEM.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

5. Orb: How the heck does a small island nation get so much influence?

History is replete with small nations going on to control huge empires. Why would it be unusual for a fictional country to do the same or less?

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

An Island nation taking down the two largest nations out there.

Orb only managed to win a couple of battles against PLANT. And PLANT itself counts as a small country.

[monster]

On the Destiny Plan, has anybody ever thought how that would favor Coordinators? If you're basing it on genes, then surely coordinated genes have the advantage here. I don't know if that would go well with Naturals once they realize who're filling up the top positions. And jealousy isn't something even an excuse like basing-it-on-genetics might be able to stop. So if it will lead to conflict anyway, I can see why it's better to prevent rather than waiting for it to fail. By then, the people who are in charge might be too powerful to easily overthrow even if the Destiny Plan fail on its promise.

As for Orb, while it may have less manpower, it never really had to fight the full might of its enemies since both AF and ZAFT were fighting each other. And both times it was attacked, the battle ended prematurely.

[Aquaman OS]

Well the point was that under the Destiny Plan it wouldn't matter whether you were a corperate CEO or a janitor as everyone would supposedly be treated the same and get what they need and people would all make nice and make their sole priority doing "good" things.

Personally I believe that drive to be better and competition is what moves humanity forward and a humanity under the Destiny Plan would just apathy itself to exinction. I also believe that Durandal was a manipulative liar and not nearly as nice as his supporters seem to think he was but that's just me.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Well the point was that under the Destiny Plan it wouldn't matter whether you were a corperate CEO or a janitor as everyone would supposedly be treated the same and get what they need and people would all make nice and make their sole priority doing "good" things.

I don't know about making nice and treating people the same. If two babies in the hospital were destined for different positions right at birth, one for CEO and the other as a janitor, people would most likely treat them differently as they grew up. And when people are treated differently, making nice would probably not be in everyone's priority.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Well the point was that under the Destiny Plan it wouldn't matter whether you were a corperate CEO or a janitor as everyone would supposedly be treated the same and get what they need and people would all make nice and make their sole priority doing "good" things.

Personally I believe that drive to be better and competition is what moves humanity forward and a humanity under the Destiny Plan would just apathy itself to exinction. I also believe that Durandal was a manipulative liar and not nearly as nice as his supporters seem to think he was but that's just me.

I don't recall anything about treating everyone the same (in terms of pay, housing, etc.,, the 'commie' allusions), just that jobs would be genetically determined at birth.

Now, if you're saying that something's wrong with equal rights and eliminating discrimination for Naturals and Coordinators alike...

[kakakka]

Jobs would be determined before birth?

Isn't it like the old days...only in a wider scale...

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by kakakka

Jobs would be determined before birth?

Isn't it like the old days...only in a wider scale...

It's not heriditary, it's genetic. And with genetic manipulation of the coordinators available, any parent can manipulate their child's genes. If a higher-up doesn't do that, then the other parent's genes would change the makeup and the child wouldn't have the same genetic profile.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

It's not heriditary, it's genetic. And with genetic manipulation of the coordinators available, any parent can manipulate their child's genes. If a higher-up doesn't do that, then the other parent's genes would change the makeup and the child wouldn't have the same genetic profile.

I never thought of that.... thanks for the insight

This itself could explain y its working on mars with no problems.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by winter45

I never thought of that.... thanks for the insight

This itself could explain y its working on mars with no problems.

Maybe. The Destiny Plan is Technocratic Genetic Communism That works (tm), except that it's neither based on actual genetics, communism, nor would it actually work IRL. But then, most of Seed (and Gundam in general) wouldn't actually work IRL, so you just have to accept it as is... which is that it actually does establish peace, and isn't some dystopian nightmare. (Dissidents who dislike the plan, for example, are free to leave whenever they like.)

[Aquaman OS]

Well they are free to leave on Mars. Durandal's version on the other hand doesn't seem quite as friendly.

Sure he says they can during his heroic speeches but in one instance immediately after ending his speech he says to an aide (rather nastily I might add) that anyone who does not except the plan is AN ENEMY OF MANKIND. That sure doesn't sound like Durandal would be very forgiving for people who don't want anything to do with his DP.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't remember that myself, but I'll be the first to admit I haven't seen the series in a while. Can you track down the episode, or which post-series edition?

[Aquaman OS]

Episode 48 right before Requieming the Alliance his response to Orb's refusal is that he'll deal with them later because he thought he'd made himself clear that this is the only solution and anyone opposing the plan are enemies of man kind itself. Then he fires Requiem. This is right after we see Kira and co talking about how while the Destiny Plan sounds great, Durandal only just suggested it and they have no idea if he's really going be a nice about as he sounds.

This pretty much makes it look like Durandal is going to Requiem anyone who refuses the plan and/or try to terrify the world into falling in line with him and enforcing the DP through fear. Which is what Orb thought all along.

I don't have special edition 4 so I don't know if they removed this but since special 2 suggests that Durandal was already making plans to off Lacus and Kira long before they actually did anything to interfere with him, and special 3 suggests he and Rey want to get rid of Athrun because he won't blindly obey him I doubt he's any nicer there.

Man it's so nice to be able to talk about the DP without freaking Red Zaku showing up to bash me.

[winter45]

No offence aquaman, but i kinda do like red zaku.. at times i wish he was part of the animesuki forums.

@DeanTY

Well seed is a fictional world with fictional works and charactors.. I cant see y destiny's plan cant workout. If the world can have world peace with lacus around even tho i think its a load of horse S**T, its still a fictional setting with fictional crap! (I persoanlly think Relena Peacecraft did a better job at worldpeace)

The answer is easy, im not fakuda so there is no need to reply to this post hehe

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Maybe. The Destiny Plan is Technocratic Genetic Communism That works (tm), except that it's neither based on actual genetics, communism, nor would it actually work IRL. But then, most of Seed (and Gundam in general) wouldn't actually work IRL, so you just have to accept it as is... which is that it actually does establish peace, and isn't some dystopian nightmare. (Dissidents who dislike the plan, for example, are free to leave whenever they like.)

Problem is, most of the Dissidents will be Naturals, to them this is nothing more than an elaborate treaty of Versailles. They will be fucked so bad by it that their only option is coordination.

Anyways my complaint is mostly Shinn not going comatose like Kamille did, he should have went braindead in exchange of making Kira a martyr.

[blitz1/2]

Easy. GSD didn't fail, we just have an overly critical fanbase. Blame the fans, not the anime.

[Who]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Easy. GSD didn't fail, we just have an overly critical fanbase. Blame the fans, not the anime.

I think you've got the right idea, just not the right culprit. The fingers should, in my opinion, be pointed more toward the producers.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by Who

I think you've got the right idea, just not the right culprit. The fingers should, in my opinion, be pointed more toward the producers.

Ive got my pitchfork and torch ready.. where do we meet up???

Originally Posted by asaqe

Anyways my complaint is mostly Shinn not going comatose like Kamille did, he should have went braindead in exchange of making Kira a martyr.

There is 1001 ways to make shinn a better usage for good or bad. Instead fakuda just made him into a hategoat and stoped. He wasted a potentional character to serve the story better.

And i do agree with you